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Lie To Me

Cloudpatrol

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1) This thread started by [MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] that dealt with how accurate our perceptions of other's are:

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2) Was interested in how many people said in this thread that they won't lie to themselves:

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3) Have been reading this book on the HOW of remembering:

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Do you think even 'healthy' people lie to themselves?


ie. If someone is not afraid of mosquito's (who kill +750,000 people a year) but IS afraid of sharks (who kill -6 people a year): is that a lie one tells themselves?

or

If someone is afraid of flying instead of driving? If someone exercises vigorously and smokes?

Is it actually LYING to oneself?

What about if one family member remembers the past ENTIRELY differently than another? Or an eyewitness? Is their perception a lie if it differs from general consensus?

A Politician that believes their own hype but presents opposite to what they are saying: does that make them a liar?

Or whatever else you think on this topic...
 

SearchingforPeace

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I read a book on memory last year that discussed the failures of memory, The Seven Sins of Memory. Here is a book review, The seven sins of memory

Here are the 7 sins

he defined his book's seven sins.

The first three are "sins of omission" that involve forgetting, and the second four are "sins of commission" that involve distorted or unwanted recollections.

Transience--the decreasing accessibility of memory over time. While a degree of this is normal with aging, decay of or damage to the hippocampus and temporal lobe can cause extreme forms of it. Schacter cited as a somewhat facetious example former President Bill Clinton's "convenient lapses of memory" during the Monica Lewinsky investigation. Clinton claimed in the hearings that he sometimes couldn't remember what had happened the previous week.

Absent-mindedness--lapses of attention and forgetting to do things. This sin operates both when a memory is formed (the encoding stage) and when a memory is accessed (the retrieval stage). Examples, said Schacter, are forgetting where you put your keys or glasses. He noted a particularly famous instance in which cellist Yo-Yo Ma forgot to retrieve his $2.5 million cello from the trunk of a New York City cab.

Blocking--temporary inaccessibility of stored information, such as tip-of-the-tongue syndrome. Schacter recounted the embarrassment of John Prescott, British deputy prime minister, when a reporter asked him how the government was paying for the expensive Millennium Dome. Prescott struggled to find the word "lottery," trying "raffles" instead.

Suggestibility--incorporation of misinformation into memory due to leading questions, deception and other causes. Psychologists Elizabeth Loftus, PhD, and Stephen Ceci, PhD, are among those well-known in this research (see sidebar).

Bias--retrospective distortions produced by current knowledge and beliefs. Psychologist Michael Ross, PhD, and others have shown that present knowledge, beliefs and feelings skew our memory for past events, said Schacter. For example, research indicates that people currently displeased with a romantic relationship tend to have a disproportionately negative take on past states of the relationship.

Persistence--unwanted recollections that people can't forget, such as the unrelenting, intrusive memories of post-traumatic stress disorder. An example, said Schacter, is the case of Donnie Moore of the California Angels, who threw the pitch that lost his team the 1986 American League Championship against the Boston Red Sox. Moore fixated on the bad play, said Schacter, "became a tragic prisoner of memory," and eventually committed suicide.

Misattribution--attribution of memories to incorrect sources or believing that you have seen or heard something you haven't. Prominent researchers in this area include Henry L. Roediger III, PhD, and Kathleen McDermott, PhD. An illustration of it, said Schacter, is the rental shop mechanic who thought that an accomplice, known as "John Doe No. 2," had worked with Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing; he thought he'd seen the two of them together in his shop. In fact, the mechanic had encountered John Doe No. 2 alone on a different day.

It is from 2001, so I don't know if more recent research has expounded or changed a lot, but it was fascinating.

My wife has severe memory problems. Sometimes this makes life very difficult for me as she won't remember something that happened 5 minutes earlier, something that 999,999 people out of a million would have permanently stuck in their memory.

And because of this, she fills in the gaps at times, the confabulation.

I see lies as intentional words expressed for the intent to deceive, contrary to truth known to the person speaking.

So, if I stole your wallet and then told you I didn't know what happened to it, it would be a lie.

Bill Clinton perjuring himself was lying, simple and straight forward.

Anyway, liars all have tells. The body reacts differently to lies or truth and though it is only in micro expressions normally, it most definitely tells a story. The research has defined many micro expressions that have been verified to represent emotions on the persons face. I believe it was in Blink by Malcolm Gladwell or Emotional Inteliigence by Goleman(I could be very wrong as my middle-aged brain throws books together these days) where he discusses that research, but he didn't do it and I supose the original research would be fascinating. They guy who started it had been a horse race bettor and became wealthy reading the horses before a race, before making it a scientific study.

I know there are some who believe that it can't be true, but the research seems valid. They also found that making these expressions could cause the associated emotions. Interesting stuff for sure.

I try never to lie. But I often hold myself in a different internal emotional state than my external emotional state. It isn't fake, it is just two different parts addressing two different things.

My desire not to lie got me into trouble as a teenager especially. I used to tell the explicit truth.

I was watching a very inappropriate movie with my friends one night when I was 15 or so. I believe it was Risky Business. My father, who highly disapproved of R rated films in general walked in just at the scene where Tom Cruise turns his home into a brothel. My father asked "What are you watching?" "Risky Business" "Is it a good movie?" "Yes, very good" "Ok" and then he left.

My friends were shocked I didn't lie. And that I didn't get in trouble.

And once while I was in the middle of an hours long make out session with a girl I had just met about 10 minutes before we started kissing, she asked, "Do you love me?" My response was "I do not know even if I like you."

My biggest dishonesty was denial. I was not honest with myself for decades about pain, love, my marriage, and so much more. I stopped journaling weeks into my marriage because everything was negative and I didn't want that. So, I created a beautiful ego construct hiding myself from me. Maybe a dozen.

So I was externally honest entirely, 99.999% of the time(or so I thought), I was blind to me, no matter that I believed I was brutally honest with myself.

But I guess I was not lying to myself as I had no conscious desire to deceive.

On a final note, I really love the movie Momento and what it says about memory. I will not spoil it, but I highly recommend it.......
 

Galena

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Do you think even 'healthy' people lie to themselves?
In very, very short, my answer is yes. Perhaps there are those who don't, but IMO they would be infinitesimally small in number.

But I may be projecting.
 

Kas

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^I agree.


I am lying. Every man is a liar ;)

I think we lie to ourselves more often than we know. Otherwise these are weak lies. And I mean healthy people too.

ie. If someone is not afraid of mosquito's (who kill +750,000 people a year) but IS afraid of sharks (who kill -6 people a year): is that a lie one tells themselves?

I heard that more people died during making selfies than were killed by sharks. Should we be afraid of smartphones?:ninja:
I think it partly comes from the fact that during your life you are bitten with many mosquitos and usually nothing happens. How many sharks do you meet? It’s typical that we’re afraid of not known. Besides as fear can be rational or irrational, appropriate or inappropriate. As we laughed about my childhood mould phobia :D I can’t say it’s irrational, poisoning is a real thread but it was definitely inappropriate. I was afraid of ants too ( I’ve watched episode of MacGyver in which ants were eating people) , though I knew that they don’t live where I do, that those are harmless- inappropriate again.

It would be different if they say “I’m more afraid of sharks because they kill more people than mosquitos do ” because that’s a logically wrong sentence.

If someone is afraid of flying instead of driving? If someone exercises vigorously and smokes?

Same as above. Besides I noticed that most people are afraid of flight and accident because they're afraid of height.
If someone exercise vigorously , smokes and think they have healthy lifestyle, yes that’s a lie. But if they smoke but exercise to at least do something for their lungs it’s not. I think one’s motives and reasons matters there a lot.


What about if one family member remembers the past ENTIRELY differently than another? Or an eyewitness? Is their perception a lie if it differs from general consensus?

Yeah that’s very interesting.

I can tell about case like this. I used to argue with my sister a lot when we were kids. She was bigger, stronger and trained judo, so when we were fighting I was the one beated up. To defend her, it was usually me who started arguments, as younger siblings tend to do. When she was angry I was getting really afraid of her, so I used to hide in our room and sit down leaning legs on wardrobe and back on doors, she couldn’t open the doors then (they were opening to the inside).
One day we argued again (I think I was about 7-8 years old)and I ran to the room as I tended to. I was keeping the doors closed, she was trying to open them and the glass from the door broke into pieces. Small pieces like dust fell on me, but far more on my sister, she had small cuts on forearm too. Big parts fell on the floor. We were so panicked, mostly because we destroyed the door. I think that’s why I remember everything with so many details. As I sit on the floor, as my sister cleaned the corridor and took glass to the garbage, as I left my mother voice message telling something like “We broke the glass from the door, sister is bleeding , glass is everywhere, we’re sorry about the door”...

The thing is that when I was talking about it about year ago with my sister she told that she was only getting into the room and I slammed the door on her. Obviously I got angry and we argued again about something that happened so many years ago*, even using physics arguments about which direction the glass would fell :shock:. I’m 100% sure I know what happened, but she seemed to be 100% sure too. I think it means a lot that such different memories were about event that made us feel scared and guilty. Whoever indeed is saying truth, we both wanted to explains ourselves, our actions I guess.

*I should add that we are friends and get along very well, we just argue dynamically


A Politician that believes their own hype but presents opposite to what they are saying: does that make them a liar?

Hmm can hypocrisy be treated as a form of lying. In fact I think it can..
 

Merced

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I think an important thing to note is that facts are not truth. Facts are something that can be objectively proven right or wrong.

A fact that is incorrect isn't the same as a lie.

Remembering something incorrectly isn't lying. Being ignorant isn't lying. Lies are conscious. You don't accidentally lie, you accidentally say something incorrect.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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People are almost always dealing with denial (lying to oneself) when encountering information that seems too horrible to accept. That part is a human nature issue, so if I find myself aware of something that my mind is trying to reject, I step back and notice the denial.

It does strike me how much of human interaction and even decision making is done subconsciously. My understanding of people is that that most truth is beneath the surface. A few areas where we as humans are most vulnerable to lie to ourselves include:

Self-concept: any behaviors, thoughts, or feelings that come into conflict with an established self-image, stand a high likelihood of ending up in the denial bin. If you find yourself logical, compassionate, empathetic, discriminating in your taste, or whatever, it is worth being extra aware and scrutinizing of oneself for the ways one is in conflict with that concept.

Family flaws: because our developmental years shape us in unintentional ways, because our frontal lobes don't even finish developing until our mid-20's, then the flaws of our early environment have a high likelihood of getting internalized. When we hate our parents or siblings for their flaws, it is worth taking a step back to realize that each one of use does in fact possess at least some of those same flaws. I think this is the root of most projection issues, when people see their own flaws in others. We learn to do that by actually seeing those flaws in others, our family members, but not realizing that we are also possessing those flaws.

Also when an event occurs that is too horrible for us to get our heads around, we tend to deny it. That is why a lot of people stay in destructive relationships or deny their children are being abused.

I think those are the three highest risks scenarios I can think of for lying to oneself. I work hard at uncovering the times I've done it to myself. I think I have the capacity like anyone, but I see it as a big problem, so i am always working on it as well.
 

Mole

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The lie that cannot speak its name

Psychological repression is part of the human condition.

Repression is different from suppression. Suppression is where we deliberately hide something, while repression is not deliberate, is entirely unconscious, and we are consciously unaware of what we have repressed.

Typically we repress the psychologically unbearable, such as the anger we might feel towards a parent who we depend on for our physical and emotional survival. As a small child we cannot afford to even become aware of the anger we feel towards a parent, lest we be abandoned. So we hide the anger, even from ourselves.

And although repressed feelings are not conscious, they do not go away, and they colour our conscious thoughts and feelings.

And the problem is that when we repress a negative emotion such as anger, we tend to repress positive emotions such as delight, pleasure, and love.

And often enough the path back to delight, pleasure, and love is by first experiencing our repressed anger, called making the unconscious, conscious. But this is so difficult and painful, most of us are unable to make the journey alone. So we imagine all kinds of false explanations for our emotional inadequacy.

So repression is the lie that cannot speak its name.
 

Cloudpatrol

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[MENTION=10604]Labyrinth[/MENTION]e

because our frontal lobes don't even finish developing until our mid-20's, then the flaws of our early environment have a high likelihood of getting internalized. When we hate our parents or siblings for their flaws, it is worth taking a step back to realize that each one of use does in fact possess at least some of those same flaws. I think this is the root of most projection issues, when people see their own flaws in others. We learn to do that by actually seeing those flaws in others, our family members, but not realizing that we are also possessing those flaws.

I hadn't really considered the science of this before. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

Seeing our own flaws in others is a tricky one for certain! It's always fascinating to see how a parent reacts to the child that is most like them OR their mate...

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] I will add that book to my list. It looks like a good supplement to the one I am currently reading...

I smiled at the Risky Business story. GLAD you chose to look denial in the face! (smile).

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It doesn't seem like you are projecting [MENTION=17945]Alaska[/MENTION]. I have always thought the same and it appears others do also.

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Do you think this is an absolute [MENTION=27952]sarcasmsunshine[/MENTION]?
Lies are conscious.
I wonder about people who actually believe their own lies? What do you think?

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Thanks for your personal account [MENTION=24824]Kas[/MENTION]. I was both entertained and intrigued. I recently testified in a hearing and the eyewitnesses were not in agreement AT ALL regarding the same situations they had experienced. But, who was telling the truth? Not easy questions...

Thanks also for answering the question re: hypocrisy. I never had even considered 'death by selfie'!!! But, of course.

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That was beautifully expressed [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]. Thank you for your thoughts on repression.
 

Mole

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A milestone in the psychological development of a child is when they discover they can lie, that they can hide things from their parents.

So to think of lying in terms of morality annoys me.

And learning at a very early age that we can hide things from our parents means we can also hide things from our peers, our teachers, our lovers, and the police.

And most important, we learn we can hide things from the State. And this forms the basis of free speech.

Sometimes they tells us they don't mind if free speech if degraded and we are under surveillance, because I have nothing to hide. And of course we have nothing to hide but our lies. And we have been lying since we were tots, our psychological and social development depends on our lying.

And lying gives birth to the suspension of disbelief in the movies, in books, in religion, in superstition, in TV, even the telephone, in art, music, dance, in mythology.

Lying gave psychological birth to our world when we were tots.

And of course lying means we are in a position to reveal things about ourselves to trusted friends.
 

entropie

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A milestone in the psychological development of a child is when they discover they can lie, that they can hide things from their parents.

So to think of lying in terms of morality annoys me.

And learning at a very early age that we can hide things from our parents means we can also hide things from our peers, our teachers, our lovers, and the police.

And most important, we learn we can hide things from the State. And this forms the basis of free speech.

Sometimes they tells us they don't mind if free speech if degraded and we are under surveillance, because I have nothing to hide. And of course we have nothing to hide but our lies. And we have been lying since we were tots, our psychological and social development depends on our lying.

And lying gives birth to the suspension of disbelief in the movies, in books, in religion, in superstition, in TV, even the telephone, in art, music, dance, in mythology.

Lying gave psychological birth to our world when we were tots.

And of course lying means we are in a position to reveal things about ourselves to trusted friends.

lost you at the point when you said "we can hide things from the state and that is free speech" that made no sense but... I like the exaggerations. It's a bit like gangster rap :)
 

Coriolis

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Do you think this is an absolute [MENTION=27952]sarcasmsunshine[/MENTION]? I wonder about people who actually believe their own lies? What do you think?
I agree with [MENTION=27952]sarcasmsunshine[/MENTION] here, but then it comes down to how one defines lying. IME lying is knowingly saying something untrue. If you don't know it is untrue, then it is an error or a delusion, not a lie. So, faulty memory of an event, or failing to understand probabilities correctly as in your mosquito vs. shark example, are not lies though the information believed is incorrect.

Lying to yourself is more like saying you need help with something when you know you really can do it on your own, but perhaps you are too lazy or can't be bothered to do it.
 

Cloudpatrol

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I agree with [MENTION=27952]sarcasmsunshine[/MENTION] here, but then it comes down to how one defines lying. IME lying is knowingly saying something untrue. If you don't know it is untrue, then it is an error or a delusion, not a lie. So, faulty memory of an event, or failing to understand probabilities correctly as in your mosquito vs. shark example, are not lies though the information believed is incorrect.

Lying to yourself is more like saying you need help with something when you know you really can do it on your own, but perhaps you are too lazy or can't be bothered to do it.

Yes, "how lying is defined" is tricky. Most sources I looked at referred to being deceitful or communicating untruths or falsehoods. But, then when I looked into how "deceit" is defined it included thoughts of: concealment, distortion of truth, misleading...

I agree with you re: delusion or ignorance. I was using the shark/mosquito analogy to demonstrate self-deception. If someone is aware of the statistics and continues to fear sharks more? I still don't qualify that as a lie (regardless of semantics) but more of misleading oneself.

Where is the line between deceiving, misleading or lying to oneself? I don't know exactly. I first started thinking about this from a legal perspective (giving eyewitness testimony). I think the law is more stringent in it's definitions.

Intent definitely seems to be the largest ingredient in the pie.

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]

So to think of lying in terms of morality annoys me.

I was surprised and ever so pleased to see a personal feeling expressed by you.
 

Mole

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[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] I was surprised and ever so pleased to see a personal feeling expressed by you.

I am delighted you were ever so pleased. And indeed I am very tempted to share my personal feelings with you because you are plainly a gifted listener. And you generously show your appreciation of others as a matter of course. So why do I hold back?

This is a delicate matter: it is as though you need to be a very good listener, and you need to be appreciative of others, and I don't think it would be helpful to you to go any further.

I don't know what would be helpful to you, so rather than jumping in like a bull at a gate, I prefer to do no harm.

So what can I offer you except to say you are a gifted listener and generously show your appreciation of others.

I feel a little sad in saying this, as how wonderful it would be to revel in your wonderful listening skills and in your appreciation.
[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]
 

Coriolis

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Yes, "how lying is defined" is tricky. Most sources I looked at referred to being deceitful or communicating untruths or falsehoods. But, then when I looked into how "deceit" is defined it included thoughts of: concealment, distortion of truth, misleading...

I agree with you re: delusion or ignorance. I was using the shark/mosquito analogy to demonstrate self-deception. If someone is aware of the statistics and continues to fear sharks more? I still don't qualify that as a lie (regardless of semantics) but more of misleading oneself.
Lying is only one form of deception. I don't find the definition that tricky. As for ignorance, it extends beyond facts. Someone can know quite well the statistics about various risks in life, that is, they can recite the numbers. That does not mean they have the ability to draw reasonable conclusions from those facts and then implement them in their lives. It is analogous to someone being unable to solve a word problem in math, though they understand quite well what all the quantities included mean.

Where is the line between deceiving, misleading or lying to oneself? I don't know exactly. I first started thinking about this from a legal perspective (giving eyewitness testimony). I think the law is more stringent in it's definitions.
Given that lying (by the definition I specified above) refers specifically to saying something you know to be untrue, lying to yourself would entail repeating such a statement to yourself, usually to justify some course of action that would be unsupportable if you acknowledged the truth. A step away from this is willful ignorance, in which you don't know the correct answer, but deliberately resist learning it, perhaps because you feel error is morally superior to lying.
 

Cloudpatrol

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Lying is only one form of deception. I don't find the definition that tricky.

Really? I do. Because I find that the definition means different things to different people. My OWN definition is not tricky, but what it entails for other's and the application is where I find the waters get murkier.

ie. Lying can also take the forms of a broken promise, plagiarism, a white lie etc... Also the degrees of a lie can differ. Yes, the degree of the lie does not negate the fact it IS one, but when attaching culpability 'the measure' comes into play.

I have a friend with increased dementia. Is it a lie to not tell her that the people she is discussing are dead? To not correct her when she calls me by the wrong name and instead play along so she does not become aggrieved? Do white lies have bad intent? Yet, they are still called white LIES. A lie is not always inclusive of information that is harmful or done with malice.


As for ignorance, it extends beyond facts. Someone can know quite well the statistics about various risks in life, that is, they can recite the numbers. That does not mean they have the ability to draw reasonable conclusions from those facts and then implement them in their lives. It is analogous to someone being unable to solve a word problem in math, though they understand quite well what all the quantities included mean.


This is fun. It's the rare occasion when I find myself not agreeing with you completely. While I agree that some people might not be able to draw reasonable conclusions and implement them, I don't think that is the case with the majority of humans. I believe that repression plays a larger role. I have a friend who is an insurance actuary and she sees this dynamic all the time.

People come in and find out what factors will most likely lead to their deaths. They comprehend and begin to implement changes (quitting smoking, not speeding, losing weight and so on). But, what she sees is that gradually people again distance themselves from the reality and begin to ignore it. They order diet soda with their 'super sized meal' and do other little 'tricks of the brain' to allow them to refrain from making change.

I honestly believe we all do this to one extent or another. Knowingly or not. I also believe some people are more devoted to knowing 'thy self' and making the changes once they become aware of them.


Given that lying (by the definition I specified above) refers specifically to saying something you know to be untrue, lying to yourself would entail repeating such a statement to yourself, usually to justify some course of action that would be unsupportable if you acknowledged the truth. A step away from this is willful ignorance, in which you don't know the correct answer, but deliberately resist learning it, perhaps because you feel error is morally superior to lying.

I understand what you are saying and think it is sound reasoning. Perhaps, just a smidge black and white, for me tho. ie. A mother is with a man who is abusive. She instinctively knows that he beats her child while she is at work. Years later her child asks her "Did you know what was going on?".

An observer may conclude that: she knows! 1) She would have had to realize that in all likelihood - if the man is abusive to the extent he is towards her, and he speaks harshly to her child - it is a logical conclusion this abuse extends into the physical realm when she is not present 2) She would have had a mother's intuition based on how her child acted-out as a result.

However, SHE may reason that she never actually SAW any abuse take place. Is she lying if she then insists to the adult child that the answer is: no? Or is that deception?
 

Cloudpatrol

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I am delighted you were ever so pleased. And indeed I am very tempted to share my personal feelings with you because you are plainly a gifted listener. And you generously show your appreciation of others as a matter of course. So why do I hold back?

This is a delicate matter: it is as though you need to be a very good listener, and you need to be appreciative of others, and I don't think it would be helpful to you to go any further.

I don't know what would be helpful to you, so rather than jumping in like a bull at a gate, I prefer to do no harm.

So what can I offer you except to say you are a gifted listener and generously show your appreciation of others.

I feel a little sad in saying this, as how wonderful it would be to revel in your wonderful listening skills and in your appreciation.
[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]


Thank you for taking my practical needs into consideration [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]. That is a kindness not always extended.

I do need to be a good listener. I think it’s valuable to hear people and try to understand them accurately. Connection is a good thing.

I agree that I have long possessed a need to appreciate other’s. Honestly, this is less of a good thing. I want to show appreciation in balanced terms and when it’s most appropriate. It’s something I am addressing.

I had always thought that it came - only - from a place of genuine appreciation for other’s. I now know that it also has to do with my own comfort. Comfort seeking is something I am wary of, or at least alert to.

ie. My Dad told me it was irritating that I always ended our text conversations. That occasionally HE wanted to be the one to send ‘the final emoji or I Love You’. I hadn’t even realized I was doing that {wow, a story about self-deception in a thread on that topic, whaddya know}.

I started to notice I was doing this in ALL text communication. I asked myself “why”? It was a reassurance. To let the people know I had heard them or that I cared. But, when I asked myself if I could refrain from doing it, it made me intensely uncomfortable. Then I realized, that it was for my OWN reassurance more than anyone else’s.


I started to let conversations naturally drop off. It felt terribly uncomfortable. All the more reason to continue the change. Sometimes I do it and sometimes I fall back into old patterns and have to again, take stock.


Recently, a member here let me know: ‘it’s ok to not answer everything’. To sometimes let conversations have a natural end. It felt both relieving and scary to hear that.


I am (and will continue to) work on this. I will always be a highly appreciative person. It’s my nature.


But, I hope to get to the point where my appreciation does not reflect my own needs - but only a 100% sincere sentiment - regarding the person I am addressing.
 

Coriolis

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Really? I do. Because I find that the definition means different things to different people. My OWN definition is not tricky, but what it entails for other's and the application is where I find the waters get murkier.

ie. Lying can also take the forms of a broken promise, plagiarism, a white lie etc... Also the degrees of a lie can differ. Yes, the degree of the lie does not negate the fact it IS one, but when attaching culpability 'the measure' comes into play.

I have a friend with increased dementia. Is it a lie to not tell her that the people she is discussing are dead? To not correct her when she calls me by the wrong name and instead play along so she does not become aggrieved? Do white lies have bad intent? Yet, they are still called white LIES. A lie is not always inclusive of information that is harmful or done with malice.
Well, I never claimed that everyone else goes by my definition, though I do find it cleaner and easier to use. I would consider a broken promise a lie only if the person had no intention of keeping it in the first place - again, that knowledge that what he/she was saying was wrong. Otherwise it is "just" irresponsibility, disloyalty, or something else. Plagiarism is lying in that it presents someone else's work as one's own, when one knows it is not. White lies are lies, just as other (black?) lies are. IME it is not a lie to refrain from telling the dementia patient that the referenced people are dead. It would be a lie if you reassured her that they are still living.

In short: if you know something is false and you say it as a positive statement, it is a lie. This is a completely separate issue from whether lying is ever justified. The fact that a lie may be necessary, e.g. to save a life, doesn't make it any less a lie.

This is fun. It's the rare occasion when I find myself not agreeing with you completely. While I agree that some people might not be able to draw reasonable conclusions and implement them, I don't think that is the case with the majority of humans. I believe that repression plays a larger role. I have a friend who is an insurance actuary and she sees this dynamic all the time.

People come in and find out what factors will most likely lead to their deaths. They comprehend and begin to implement changes (quitting smoking, not speeding, losing weight and so on). But, what she sees is that gradually people again distance themselves from the reality and begin to ignore it. They order diet soda with their 'super sized meal' and do other little 'tricks of the brain' to allow them to refrain from making change.

I honestly believe we all do this to one extent or another. Knowingly or not. I also believe some people are more devoted to knowing 'thy self' and making the changes once they become aware of them.
I wouldn't underestimate the number of people who fall into the highlighted category. Of course there are plenty who do what you describe as well, and fail to implement measures they know are helpful and even necessary. This suggests a lack of willpower, and lying to oneself can be used to justify it.

I understand what you are saying and think it is sound reasoning. Perhaps, just a smidge black and white, for me tho. ie. A mother is with a man who is abusive. She instinctively knows that he beats her child while she is at work. Years later her child asks her "Did you know what was going on?".

An observer may conclude that: she knows! 1) She would have had to realize that in all likelihood - if the man is abusive to the extent he is towards her, and he speaks harshly to her child - it is a logical conclusion this abuse extends into the physical realm when she is not present 2) She would have had a mother's intuition based on how her child acted-out as a result.

However, SHE may reason that she never actually SAW any abuse take place. Is she lying if she then insists to the adult child that the answer is: no? Or is that deception?
She would be lying if she insisted the answer was an unequivocal no or yes. In a sense, she is at least partially agnostic on the matter. The whole truth would be that she suspected as much but did not know for certain. So any claim of certainty either way would be a lie. Now if she had some sort of direct evidence or reliable eyewitness account, e.g. from a neighbor, she could answer clearly "yes" without lying.
 

Cloudpatrol

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She would be lying if she insisted the answer was an unequivocal no or yes. In a sense, she is at least partially agnostic on the matter. The whole truth would be that she suspected as much but did not know for certain. So any claim of certainty either way would be a lie. Now if she had some sort of direct evidence or reliable eyewitness account, e.g. from a neighbor, she could answer clearly "yes" without lying.

Hmmm, yes I can accept that. Interesting.

D*mn, I agree with the whole reply in fact. Look forward to the next time we can disagree on something (even temporarily, laughs).
 
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