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Lie To Me

Cloudpatrol

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1. No one is 100% healthy.
2. Lying doesn't completely correspond to "unhealthiness".

Right. I tend not to think in absolutes so neither of those ^ points was made in my OP.

I suppose my original question could be phrased another way: Do you think it is normal/standard for the average person to lie to themselves?
 

Virtual ghost

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Right. I tend not to think in absolutes so neither of those ^ points was made in my OP.

I suppose my original question could be phrased another way: Do you think it is normal/standard for the average person to lie to themselves?

In that case: if it is not too often and in really vital moments this is perfectly normal and ok. (in my opinion)
 

Mole

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1. No one is 100% healthy. 2. Lying doesn't completely correspond to "unhealthiness".

Being healthy means not having a lesion or an infection, anything else uses health as a metaphor.

And it is a category mistake to conflate a metaphor with reality.
 
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In that case: if it is not too often and in really vital moments this is perfectly normal and ok. (in my opinion)

I'll be honest regardng this whole topic:

Several people have expressed agreement that it is normal and healthy to lie to oneself. How is that so? Wouldn't it be better, morally and intellectually, to be 100% honest and rational with oneself all of the time? Doesn't the inability of most people (implying that there are some people who are completely honest with themselves 100% of the time) to handle the truths of life say something very bad about the majority of people?
 

Abendrot

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There's the idea of depressive realism. Depressive realism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Research suggests that the people who are least likely to lie to themselves, and make the most accurate inferences are those who are depressed.
It may indeed be healthy for people to delude themselves to an extent.
 

Mole

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I'll be honest regardng this whole topic:

Several people have expressed agreement that it is normal and healthy to lie to oneself. How is that so? Wouldn't it be better, morally and intellectually, to be 100% honest and rational with oneself all of the time? Doesn't the inability of most people (implying that there are some people who are completely honest with themselves 100% of the time) to handle the truths of life say something very bad about the majority of people?

Most of our life is unconscious. And our unconscious is not amenable to reason. So it is impossible to be 100% honest and rational with oneself all the time.

So instead of reason we rely on tradition, good taste, and aesthetics to guide our behaviour.

As well, we can slowly work with our unconscious, making the unconscious, conscious, and so amenable to reason.

And it is only adolescents, terrified of their own unconscious, who think it is morally better to be 100% honest and rational with oneself all of the time.
 

Virtual ghost

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I'll be honest regardng this whole topic:

Several people have expressed agreement that it is normal and healthy to lie to oneself. How is that so? Wouldn't it be better, morally and intellectually, to be 100% honest and rational with oneself all of the time? Doesn't the inability of most people (implying that there are some people who are completely honest with themselves 100% of the time) to handle the truths of life say something very bad about the majority of people?

As you can see I am suggesting only very limited use of the lying.

Because:

1. Many things in life requre courage to accomplish, courage comes from faith and faith may come from small lies/glorifications that you tell yourself.
2. Selected use of lying to yourself can save you from depression in certain situations.


Lying is in general bad and should be used with extreme causion, so that it doesn't become a trend. However a lie or two from time to time may smooth/save things if used wisely and thus prevent the even bigger damage. Direct and open lying about facts is basically bad by defualt, however in my first language lying can also mean "upgrading the truth", so that you have easier time winning people over. Therefore speeding up the "inevitable".


EDIT: I see that some people were faster in explaining this.
 

Tilt

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Maybe I am just jaded, but I think almost everyone lies to themselves, There are at least a couple things that most of us just don't want to acknowledge so we tend to gloss over the facts that would shatter a certain perception. In low-moderate amounts, this self-deception is the thing that keeps us sane and makes us happier and more content. Another form of lying is hypocrisy... and we all know how that goes.

Example: a notably overweight person tries to "lose weight" but constantly blames it on her genes when, in fact, her behavior shows a different story -- she rarely exercises, doesn't have the best diet, and minimizes a history of stress eating.
 

ZNP-TBA

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Maybe I am just jaded, but I think almost everyone lies to themselves, There are at least a couple things that most of us just don't want to acknowledge so we tend to gloss over the facts that shatter a certain perception. In low-moderate amounts, this self-deception is the thing that keeps us sane and makes us happier and more content. Another form of lying is hypocrisy... and we all know how that goes.

Example: a notably overweight person tries to "lose weight" but constantly blames it on her genes when, in fact, her behavior shows a different story -- she rarely exercises, doesn't have the best diet, and minimizes a history of stress eating.

Well I think everyone is a mixed bag of positive and negative traits but it really depends on whether people define themselves more by their positive or negative traits. A person positive about themselves is typically inspiring and to some degree commands respect. If they are overly positive then it can appear to be full of themselves and lacking humility. Someone who defines themselves primarily by their negative traits can appear far too submissive and people dismiss them because they dismiss themselves. A balance is required but I lean more on the positive.

In your example genes do determine a lot about someone whether we like it or not, however, it's not purely deterministic. Someone with overweight genes needs to work harder than someone with fit genes to stay healthy. It may not be fair but it's reality.
 

Tilt

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Well I think everyone is a mixed bag of positive and negative traits but it really depends on whether people define themselves more by their positive or negative traits. A person positive about themselves is typically inspiring and to some degree commands respect. If they are overly positive then it can appear to be full of themselves and lacking humility. Someone who defines themselves primarily by their negative traits can appear far too submissive and people dismiss them because they dismiss themselves. A balance is required but I lean more on the positive.

In your example genes do determine a lot about someone whether we like it or not, however, it's not purely deterministic. Someone with overweight genes needs to work harder than someone with fit genes to stay healthy. It may not be fair but it's reality.

I agree with you. The way I tend to approach my relationships in general is based on the question, "Do I like this person's positive traits more than I dislike her negative traits?" if yes, then keep. If no, then toss.

I was reading somewhere that a potential evolutionary benefit of self-deception is that it can give us a boost of confidence and a perception of control. People who have slightly delusional perceptions of themselves tend to fare better than those who hold more truthful, albeit, negative self-perceptions.

The evolution and psychology of self-deception. - PubMed - NCBI
.

I do agree that some will have a genetic predisposition for weight issues, but from what I gather, a good chunk of people use genetics as a scapegoat for their inability to lose weight -- that, in itself, can be a lie to make themselves feel better especially if others can see that they are not doing what they need to in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle. A select few do everything they can to stay healthy and just are naturally larger, but most seem to have some mental hangups preventing them from losing weight (but then one can probably make the argument about how genetics affects the paradigm of the individual and how it can shape what coping mechanisms she develops...).
 

ZNP-TBA

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I agree with you. The way I tend to approach my relationships in general is based on the question, "Do I like this person's positive traits more than I dislike her negative traits?" if yes, then keep. If no, then toss.

Is this some checklist you can scan and post here? I'd like to see it. :D

I was reading somewhere that a potential evolutionary benefit of self-deception is that it can give us a boost of confidence and a perception of control. People who have slightly delusional perceptions of themselves tend to fare better than those who hold more truthful, albeit, negative self-perceptions.

The evolution and psychology of self-deception. - PubMed - NCBI

Yep. It seems that we humans are highly receptive to storytelling even if they gloss over important facts. For most people someone charismatic is someone able to tell a good story either with words or actions or both. Charisma is generally seen as a positive trait to most people. We're so susceptible to storytelling that even the media uses it as standard operating procedure when manufacturing narratives. Being able to convey a good story about yourself whether its mostly based in fact or not goes a long way. What's even better is when a confident person that promotes their own positives shows displays of humility like with self-depreciating jokes or giving a compliment to someone you wouldn't expect. That act of humility seems to be more significant coming from the confident person rather than a self-perceiving negative person with whom self-depreciation is expected. They lack a 'pleasant surprise' factor.

I do agree that some will have a genetic predisposition for weight issues, but from what I gather, a good chunk of people use genetics as a scapegoat for their inability to lose weight -- that, in itself, can be a lie to make themselves feel better especially if others can see that they are not doing what they need to in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle. A select few do everything they can to stay healthy and just are naturally larger, but most seem to have some mental hangups preventing them from losing weight.

Well laziness is perceived as largely negative so people are naturally inclined to excuse laziness within themselves. It's not all that different than some homeless people. Maybe a lot of them do not admit their own human error leading to their situation and blame it on 'the system.' While it might by partially the fault of the system not taking personal responsibility almost guarantees scapegoating.
 

Poki

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I am generally not one to lie to myself. It sucks at times and even my dad said i am to smart for my own good. That parts of my life would be easier if i did lie to myself or was atleast ignorant. I see a mixed bag though and the biggest reason i try to see and be honest is that lieing or blindness causes one to get stuck. I have this pull to continuosly improve life, not improve my perception only. I want congruency between external and internal.

I have been told ALOT that my perceptions are VERY accurate.
 

Mole

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We have a naive belief in our own perceptions. And our perceptions are rarely tested against reality, so we operate under false perceptions.

And if this weren't enough, we are almost completely at the mercy of our unconscious impulses and ideals.

And yet we have the impression we are the captain of our souls, while we are at the willy nilly bidding of our perceptions and our unconscious.

We recite Invictus while our perceptions and unconscious laugh at us -

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
 

Cloudpatrol

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I agree with you. The way I tend to approach my relationships in general is based on the question, "Do I like this person's positive traits more than I dislike her negative traits?" if yes, then keep. If no, then toss.

This reminded me of something I saw the other day and was pondering re: how much I subscribe to it...

important%20decisions_zpsg7xjotqf.jpg



I was reading somewhere that a potential evolutionary benefit of self-deception is that it can give us a boost of confidence and a perception of control. People who have slightly delusional perceptions of themselves tend to fare better than those who hold more truthful, albeit, negative self-perceptions.

The evolution and psychology of self-deception. - PubMed - NCBI
.

Great resource! I agree with the premise. It's nice when a balance is achieved I think. i.e. Believing you can do something that seems insurmountable = so you do. But also being realistic or modest in recognizing one's own limitations/imperfections.
 

Poki

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This reminded me of something I saw the other day and was pondering re: how much I subscribe to it...

important%20decisions_zpsg7xjotqf.jpg





Great resource! I agree with the premise. It's nice when a balance is achieved I think. i.e. Believing you can do something that seems insurmountable = so you do. But also being realistic or modest in recognizing one's own limitations/imperfections.

I like it...though i dont really create a pros and cons list...maybe thats why i like it :doh: i mean, i can run through the pros and cons if need be. But when people turn pros into cons and cons into pros...what good does the list do :shrug:

My strength is also provide solutions, not make decisions.
 

Mole

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Reason and the Unconscious

The problem is the disconnect between reason and the unconscious.

On the one hand we know the sleep of reason brings forth monsters from the unconscious, but on the other hand, not listening to the unconscious creates a meaningless empty life.

This is quite a problem for reason is the sword and the unconscious is the flame, so it is very easy to get cut or burnt.

It is possible to fall in love with our unconscious. Our unconscious will be grateful, and amenable to reason.
 
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