Should I Stay Or Should I Go?

[1487610420]

I got all but #5 down

 

[PeaceBaby]

Well, they are drawn to each other for a purpose, and they intuitively (even if subconsciously) know this, and that purpose is one of balance and healing if they are able to interact with each other in a respectful way, learning how to communicate without criticism or contempt and appreciate each other's unique qualities. Since helping is beyond the scope of this thread, many marriage counsellors have a sliding scale of rates based on income. It would be worth trying to find a reputable counsellor that accepts lower fees if cost is a concern.

As a quick improvement though, and it would make a big difference, is if they can "clean up" their language with each other.

 

[Norrsken]

They won't. I have suggested it to them together and separately.

Both think the problems are the other's fault. They won't make themselves vulnerable in front of each other because they say it will 'just get used against them later'. (Is how it was explained to me).

Might I suggest pulling one of them aside and introduce them to this book? It really helped me as a pre-marital counseling agent before I married my husband, and I feel that it really helped me put many things into perspective. Going to counseling can be expensive, time consuming, and it might rub certain people the wrong way, so maybe a book might be better for them.

 

[Poki]

Might I suggest pulling one of them aside and introduce them to this book? It really helped me as a pre-marital counseling agent before I married my husband, and I feel that it really helped me put many things into perspective. Going to counseling can be expensive, time consuming, and it might rub certain people the wrong way, so maybe a book might be better for them.

The top review of that book shows a lot of good info if they solidly deliver on it. Looks very promising.

The authors have decades of counseling experience and are the founders of the renowned PREP program: Prevention and Relationship Enhancement Program. The PREP program is one of the most thoroughly researched marital studies ever. It is based upon five principles:

1. Decide, don't slide. Make the effort to make decisions together.
2. Do your part. Do positive things for your spouse. Be responsible for your own personal growth and mental and physical health.
3. Make it safe to connect. Understand your differences and handle conflict constructively.
4. Open the doors to positive connections. Cultivating fun, friendship, support, spirituality, and sensual connections.
5. Nurture your commitment.

WHAT READERS CAN LEARN FROM THIS BOOK

1. Four destructive patterns: Escalation, Invalidation, Withdrawal and avoidance, Negative interpretations.
2. What to do when one spouse withdraws.
3. What to do when one spouse is depressed.
4. Cultivating good communication habits: Paying attention. Acknowledging your spouse's emotional state. Identifying what we are thinking while our spouse is talking. Recognizing different styles of communication. Identifying our self-protective behavior.
5. Using the Speaker-Listener technique to avoid fighting while talking.
6. Managing one's negative emotions (anger, sadness, hostility) when they are triggered by events.
7. Handling deeper themes in marriage: Control and power. Feeling loved and cared for by your spouse. Recognition for your accomplishments. Your commitment to stay married. The integrity of your spouse's motives, values, and standards. The desire to be accepted by your spouse.

 

[Norrsken]

[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION]

It is such a good, good book, I swear to you. Even if you're single, I highly recommend it. It is a good life skill to have: to love someone in a way that is healthy and fulfilling, as well as handling personal conflicts. I'm planning on re-reading it soon.

 

[small.wonder]

Honestly, I don't believe breaking up is the answer, even if they were idiots to marry each other. Sounds like they both realize what's wrong (all of the "he never", "she always")-- namely, they are both acting like selfish teenagers. Clearly a lot of people aren't capable of this, but it seems to me, the problem is almost always lack of communication and too much self-focus. If they cared about each other enough to marry, you'd think they could summon the desire to care for each other. They are expressing their needs (if in childish ways), how revolutionary would it be to do something to care for the other person, rather than throw a fit about one's own needs? In many situations, this changes the entire dynamic-- because we feel more caring towards someone who has expressed their understanding of us, by caring for us in a personal way (when they didn't have to).

A large part of that, of course, is an earnest choice/desire to try. We live in a culture that gives up on relationship immediately if it doesn't serve our individual purposes completely, that's foolishness and total narciscism. Marriage is highly about servant-hearted co-leadership, that is the kind of environment a child should grow up in IMO.

I'm really sorry that your friends are handling this situation badly (however you slice it), I'm just glad that they have an honest and caring friend like you-- even if they don't take your words to heart. Of course, the hardest part is watching their son become caught in the crosshairs. :/ I don't envy you that, or know how I would respond in that situation-- it would be so hard not to intervene on that little guy's behalf, and may even be the right course of action. It's totally situational, but you're clearly a wise lady and I hope that you will trust your own intuition in regards to what you think you can/should do.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Different reasons for different people, I suppose.

I know an ISFP who stayed in bad relationships past their expiration dates. She'd introduce these guys to her family fairly early in the relationship. After that point, she was determined to make it work. Otherwise, her family would perceive it as a failure. She never figured it out on her own, that she should stop bringing those guys home so soon. Someone had to tell her.

Her experience with "team work" was that she did all the work, and the group got an "A." The expectation was that the relationships would work out the same. She really believed in herself too much, and it contributed to her not letting go so soon.

The classic preemptive "this will fix everything bad to come" move.

That was always a red flag for me, when girls wanted me to meet their parents after 2 weeks. Do you even know my middle name or if I'm not an axe murderer? But you're ready to present me as Mr. Right?

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

The classic preemptive "this will fix everything bad to come" move.

That was always a red flag for me, when girls wanted me to meet their parents after 2 weeks. Do you even know my middle name or if I'm not an axe murderer? But you're ready to present me as Mr. Right?

She'd be all like, "You're an ax murder? I want to be engaged really bad, so we have to hide this. I will take care of the bodies, because you are retarded and I am smart. You're also morally inferior and need to stop murdering people."

 

[ceecee]

Well, I hope they plan to save up for the therapy the kid will clearly need. These kinds of people are so incredibly selfish, narcissistic and unhealthy I want to kick them in the head and I know couples exactly like them. There is NO getting through to them. Maybe you could volunteer to take the kid so he can get a break once a week or something?

 

[magpie]

Well, I hope they plan to save up for the therapy the kid will clearly need. These kinds of people are so incredibly selfish, narcissistic and unhealthy I want to kick them in the head and I know couples exactly like them. There is NO getting through to them. Maybe you could volunteer to take the kid so he can get a break once a week or something?

Yeah, I think what often happens is people in a marriage prioritize themselves and each other and fail to act in a way that would be best for their child or children. It is selfish, particularly because children are dependent on parents. I'm so glad my parents divorced, them living together was hellish and horrifying. I only wish they'd gotten divorced sooner. Not to mention they're both happier not being around each other.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=22178]magpie[/MENTION]

Thank you for your personal perspective.


I have talked to the little boy about this in a VERY round-about way. We wrote a ‘children’s book’ together and did drawings. It was the only way I could think of to get his thoughts and feelings without addressing it directly.

Ultimately, he decided that the Mommy and Daddy Monkey should not live in the same house. So, we drew the boy monkey as visiting both houses and all the animal’s along the way.


It was that - along with how much of the storyline involved the little Monkey “taking care of the Parent Monkey’s” - that moved me to write this thread.


Reading your post gave me comfort to know that it could be POSSIBLE for everyone to be happier if resolution is ultimately not possible.



Exactly!! [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION].

I have been watching the little boy carefully and can clearly understand the mental connections he is drawing:

1. My parents are unhappy and mean to each other but when I am good or entertaining or cute there is peace.
2. I will be the best little boy that has ever been.
3. Hmm, they are mean and unhappy again. What did I do wrong that it didn’t work? I will control myself even more.
4. My Dad wants me to agree with him, but my Mom will be hurt if I do? How do I answer this to keep pease and please both of them?

And so on and so on…

It’s the strangest thing to look at a darling child barely beyond toddler-hood and already KNOW that he will need therapy as an adult.


I have been thinking a lot about what you suggested. I want to be a sanctuary and reprieve for him. At the same time: I travel and don’t want him to be confused by my absence and blame himself or feel abandoned by me.

So, last night I asked a mutual friend to share the responsibility with me. That way I have a back-up if I need to visit my parents etc.


I asked a male friend so that he will receive the benefit of both sexes providing a safe and supportive atmosphere even in short doses.

It still feels like SO MUCH less than is needed for him right now. But, it is the best I can think of.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]

Thank you for the reminder to trust my intuition. I sometimes forget - and it helped me make some decisions.

I agree with you. I don’t consider relationships disposable and think they are worth FIGHTING for. I also agree that looking outside of oneself and performing simple kindnesses can be extraordinarily powerful.

I have never suggested they break up. I don’t know their intimate details and I am not the one that would have to live with the consequences.

That being said, I admit that my usual optimism, is fading. Their wedding (I was maid of honor) was fun but I found the day stressful because of how I observed them speaking to one another. Things have gotten progressively worse for +15 years.

To the point that they now are critical and abusive to each other even in front of company. They are adamant that it is only ‘the other person who needs to change’. I have sincere concerns that things will eventually lead to physical altercation {though I don’t think that would be the conscious intent of either party}.

I don’t feel like a great friend right now because I am angry. I believe with all my heart that when a child is born: their needs take precedence.

I don’t mean to the extent that a wife doesn’t maintain her individual relationship with the husband, that is important also. But, to provide for the child emotionally, physically, spiritually and ‘be their soft place to fall’.

All the more so when having a child was a decision made with deliberation and fore-thought.

I adore their son and he calls me “Auntie” even though I am not in the biological sense. I will do right by him. I just feel frustrated because I know it ‘isn’t enough’.


[MENTION=26674]theforsaken[/MENTION] That is a really good book by the looks of it. I might pass it on - to a few other friend’s as well - that I think would appreciate it.

I feel ‘spent’ and ‘done’ because none of what I have said over the years has been taken under advisement.

But, I do feel able to offer the book. I think that it’s possible they would read it.

I know that it only takes one. Even if one of them will re-consider their approach…

Thank you for this. Truly.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]

I agree that they were drawn to each other for a reason and that balance and healing could be possible, with even small changes. I so wish that they would draw towards each other instead of being in opposition. Even ‘baby steps’. Just one of them taking a step back to view things from a different angle or having the humility to accept help:

I know that they need PROFESSIONAL assistance and that has been my refrain (given to them both and individually). I sincerely feel that none of my questions or reasoning over the years have hit any lasting marks.

I don’t think money IS what is preventing them from seeking counselling. I hesitate to make any interpretations on other’s finances cuz it isn't my business I have observed the money they spend on shopping, alcohol etc…and I do sense some measure of disposable income is available.

I think it’s possible that 1) counselling isn’t a priority and 2) that they fear it.

Nothing I have said or asked to this point re: changing language - even around the son - has been effective. I have used my own upbringing, asked them questions regarding their’s, brought attention to the effects I see in the son…

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]

I agree that they were drawn to each other for a reason and that balance and healing could be possible, with even small changes. I so wish that they would draw towards each other instead of being in opposition. Even ‘baby steps’. Just one of them taking a step back to view things from a different angle or having the humility to accept help:

I know that they need PROFESSIONAL assistance and that has been my refrain (given to them both and individually). I sincerely feel that none of my questions or reasoning over the years have hit any lasting marks.

I don’t think money IS what is preventing them from seeking counselling. I hesitate to make any interpretations on other’s finances cuz it isn't my business I have observed the money they spend on shopping, alcohol etc…and I do sense some measure of disposable income is available.

I think it’s possible that 1) counselling isn’t a priority and 2) that they fear it.

Nothing I have said or asked to this point re: changing language - even around the son - has been effective. I have used my own upbringing, asked them questions regarding their’s, brought attention to the effects I see in the son…

We are drawn to each other for a reason, but that doesnt mean we know whats best for us. If you look into duality vs conflicting pair. Conflicting pair actually has a stronger push/pull in both directions. But dualism has the best growth because of the balance.

The MOST help you can do is to help the child deal with the situation. Use made up situations to help steer the child towards best for all involved. Or use real life situations to help the child open his eyes and learn to work with it. Reality is what matters, the child is what matters. Its not about taking sides of parent or child, but teaching that child how to deal with his parents and the world.

 

[ceecee]

[MENTION=22178]magpie[/MENTION]

Thank you for your personal perspective.


I have talked to the little boy about this in a VERY round-about way. We wrote a ‘children’s book’ together and did drawings. It was the only way I could think of to get his thoughts and feelings without addressing it directly.

Ultimately, he decided that the Mommy and Daddy Monkey should not live in the same house. So, we drew the boy monkey as visiting both houses and all the animal’s along the way.


It was that - along with how much of the storyline involved the little Monkey “taking care of the Parent Monkey’s” - that moved me to write this thread.


Reading your post gave me comfort to know that it could be POSSIBLE for everyone to be happier if resolution is ultimately not possible.



Exactly!! [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION].

I have been watching the little boy carefully and can clearly understand the mental connections he is drawing:

1. My parents are unhappy and mean to each other but when I am good or entertaining or cute there is peace.
2. I will be the best little boy that has ever been.
3. Hmm, they are mean and unhappy again. What did I do wrong that it didn’t work? I will control myself even more.
4. My Dad wants me to agree with him, but my Mom will be hurt if I do? How do I answer this to keep pease and please both of them?

And so on and so on…

It’s the strangest thing to look at a darling child barely beyond toddler-hood and already KNOW that he will need therapy as an adult.


I have been thinking a lot about what you suggested. I want to be a sanctuary and reprieve for him. At the same time: I travel and don’t want him to be confused by my absence and blame himself or feel abandoned by me.

So, last night I asked a mutual friend to share the responsibility with me. That way I have a back-up if I need to visit my parents etc.


I asked a male friend so that he will receive the benefit of both sexes providing a safe and supportive atmosphere even in short doses.

It still feels like SO MUCH less than is needed for him right now. But, it is the best I can think of.

I'm glad to hear this, I think you're doing the right thing.

 

[indra]

Oh no, Cloudpatrol.

I thought at first this was a potential exit from the forum for you.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

We are drawn to each other for a reason, but that doesnt mean we know whats best for us. If you look into duality vs conflicting pair. Conflicting pair actually has a stronger push/pull in both directions. But dualism has the best growth because of the balance.

The MOST help you can do is to help the child deal with the situation. Use made up situations to help steer the child towards best for all involved. Or use real life situations to help the child open his eyes and learn to work with it. Reality is what matters, the child is what matters. Its not about taking sides of parent or child, but teaching that child how to deal with his parents and the world.

I can't speak for [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], but what I was referring to when I acknowledged they were drawn to each other "for a reason" was not related to typology, but to psychology.

A common belief in the field is: we 'choose' people to bring into our lives intimately, who will help us resolve early hurts or imbalances. (Maybe someone else who knows more can explain this better...).

So, in this case: someone who grew up in a very unregulated atmosphere with little stability chose someone who came from a background of consistency and order. And, vice versa. BUT, for growth to take place in this way, differences need to be negotiated maturely.

I read more on dualism after your comment and am still doing research, trying to find a balance among the differing views presented. I agree with you regarding the opportunities for growth. Having a dual as a romantic partner or even a close friend.

I am taking your words re: the child to heart. I appreciated the reminder that it isn't about blaming or taking sides. But, about practical assistance. I know that you not only espouse this: but live it

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Without getting super in-depth, and not including more extreme disfunctionality and personality disorders/ people pairing up who 'complement' those issues (ie addict with codependent, narcissist with someone who has super low self esteem, stuff like that), I think it can be a)Fear of not finding anyone else (/worry that it won't be different or better with anyone else) - the fear/discomfort of being alone is REAL for most/all people; b)Comfort in familiarity and shared experiences having built up; c)Probably still in some cases love being present, or if no longer, memory of love that once was, and clinging to that. Also once entrenched in a relationship it can be near-impossible to 'see' clearly, as one can be caught up in so many nuances of it. (Which is why it's 'easy' for observers / friends to critique a relationship or wonder why the hell the people are still together, but the people IN it are in a whirlwind of confusion or various emotions pulling one way or the other)

So, this is one of the best explanations I have ever received. You, [MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] explained the dynamics really well. I told you I had to come back after thinking about it, and this is where I currently am in understanding/questioning:

Point a^: I understand the basic need for human companionship and acceptance. I still can't totally wrap my head around the WHY of seeking it with someone who isn't meeting the needs/having their needs met, for that fulfillment?

I'm particularly fascinated by people who feel lonely or unstimulated IN a relationship but still view being alone as worse? When I've been single, it hasn't entirely sucked


Where does the worry about not finding another person come from? I have friends who have this fear and I really want to understand where they are coming from better. If you met one person, why wouldn't you be able to meet another if you aren't well-suited with the current? Even if a person didn't perceive of themselves as attractive - there are MANY average looking people who find someone. There are SO many people and options.

Even if shy - is it MORE difficult to extend oneself - than to be stuck in an intimate life situation that causes dis-satisfaction or unhappiness?

I understand how the elements you mentioned ^ are especially apropos in a marriage or long-term relationship. And, it's the process of becoming mired in such that is the primary source of my puzzlement:

If I am leasing a car and am not entirely pleased with how it fits my personal needs (gas mileage, leg room, number of cup holders ) then I am most definitely NOT going to buy the car when the lease runs out. So, why do people who are not well-suited or entirely happy while dating - continue on into marriage?

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

Everybody should formally go and see a psychoanalyst and get a diploma which would show that you are healthy enough to start a constructive relationship.

Why having a driving license to be allowed to drive ? Why not having a diploma of love to be allowed to take care of oneself and another person ?

By those times of violence and selfishness, it would be one more security to avoid useless dramas.

 

[Poki]

I can't speak for [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], but what I was referring to when I acknowledged they were drawn to each other "for a reason" was not related to typology, but to psychology.

A common belief in the field is: we 'choose' people to bring into our lives intimately, who will help us resolve early hurts or imbalances. (Maybe someone else who knows more can explain this better...).

So, in this case: someone who grew up in a very unregulated atmosphere with little stability chose someone who came from a background of consistency and order. And, vice versa. BUT, for growth to take place in this way, differences need to be negotiated maturely.

I read more on dualism after your comment and am still doing research, trying to find a balance among the differing views presented. I agree with you regarding the opportunities for growth. Having a dual as a romantic partner or even a close friend.

I am taking your words re: the child to heart. I appreciated the reminder that it isn't about blaming or taking sides. But, about practical assistance. I know that you not only espouse this: but live it

Dualism vs conflict was a typology example...but the concept spans into the all realms...a person from a yelling abusive family that took on traits will look for the opposite. They will find someone so opposite that its a constant battle AGIANST each other, not themselves. Its the underlying principle behind dual and conflict outside of typology. It spans into all aspects of who someone is.

Life is not about opposites, its about side by side. Its not about head to head, its about guidance and support.