Other People's Kids

[heart]

Well, I don't think there is an intelligent, thoughtful person in the world who hasn't seen what is going on all around us and wondered what the solution is short of genocide.

I certainly would never support genocide or forced eugenics! I don't think all parents are lax, just a tiny percentage that make a lot of noise at SquallMart.

Please don't ever take that from what I said, because it is not what I said and I have very firm values against forced eugenics and such. I do not support one child policies.

Sometimes I think Mother Earth is standing poised to shake us all off like a bunch of parasites and start over.

I don't get into the Mother Earth is going to eat her children type of new religion. I don't think humans are a cancer on the Earth. I think the whole over population thing is a hyped-up myth.

Might be the best solution at this point of exponentially growing population and dysfunction. Argh.

External force is never the answer. People have to come to answers as individuals. I merely say it ought to be encouaged for people to self-evaluate more often if they are up to the job of being parents because the job is so hard and long and unrelentling. I have seen people who could barely hold the basic minimum of their own lives together add children to that mix with devestating results. This is a minority of people though. To come up with extreme solutions would be far worse than what happens now.

 

[karenk]

It's funny, in a larger perspective. China is the only country that I know of that actually does something about the over-population of earth. To solve the problem, maybe there should be a limit of 2-3 children per couple.

I've always thought this too. I think the motivation not to do it is they need more consumers. At the very least they can stop giving tax breaks for the more children people have.

 

[Anja]

Oh, c'mon heart. I'm not here to argue with you.

*Sprinkles extra magic INFP dust in heart's direction and soothingly intones, "Rest your troubled spirit, Dear."*

 

[heart]

Oh, c'mon heart. I'm not here to argue with you.

*Sprinkles extra magic INFP dust in heart's direction and soothingly intones, "Rest your troubled spirit, Dear."*

I just want to make clear what I am saying. You said you agreed with me and then added on that eugenics and mother earth stuff and that wasn't my agenda at all. I just wanted to clarify.

I am here to express and if that means debating at times I am totally okay with it. I am not here specifically to "argue" with anyone but I am willing to voice differing opinions at times. (Did I stumble into "Fuzzy-Rainbow Central" without noticing it? )

Please, it irritates me that you would suggest that I have a "troubled spirit" just because I've disagreed with you. I don't have a troubled spirit and I don't need to rest it. I merely have a strong opposing opinion on the topic of forced eugenics and all this nonsense about mother earth is going to eat her children.

EDIT: My only agenda in saying that people ought to self-evaulate before having children is because of the price paid by those child over the course of their lifetime and also society at large when the parent cannot adequately fulfill their role.

I know that the majority of parents are not like this and it puzzles me why perfectly normal and functional parents get all tied up into knots when I say it.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with overpopulation or any other agendas.

 

[substitute]

Definitely. I mean, not even gay people may adopt kids. That is a damn small issue compared to the general hillbilly who comes home drunk and beats his kids or the single mom who can't pay for a decent place to live and/or food.

In defense of single parents though (since I am one) the majority are actually made that way through no intention or fault specifically of their own... contrary to popular belief, the slut that gets pregnant from a one night stand is in a very small minority compared to the parent who was married and successful and then ended up divorced through various unforeseeable misfortunes... if single parents are unable to cope with their burdens then I see it more as a fault of the state which failed to support them than the parent who had insurmountable odds to deal with.

Where I live, as a single parent you are supported by the state and unobliged to work until your child reaches the age of 12. But you're still encouraged to work if you can, and full support is given for childcare and other related issues. In countries where there is no such support, I fail to see how a single parent can be blamed for simply not being able to be in two places at once and having chosen not to leave the kids to starve...

 

[heart]

^ Yeah I agree with Sub on this. I am only talking about when it's a case of parents who were already *seriously* struggling with daily life and chose to bring children into the picture. No one can foresee changes down the road, especially if it is a marriage partner who suddenly abdicates their responsibility in life and the other is forced to make do on minimum wage.

 

[cafe]

EDIT: My only agenda in saying that people ought to self-evaulate before having children is because of the price paid by those child over the course of their lifetime and also society at large when the parent cannot adequately fulfill their role.

I know that the majority of parents are not like this and it puzzles me why perfectly normal and functional parents get all tied up into knots when I say it.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with overpopulation or any other agendas.

The same reason the good kids in a class get all tied up in knots when the class gets taken to task for the behavior of a few bratty kids while the bratty kids aren't bothered in the least because they don't care.

There probably isn't a good parent out there who hasn't been mortified by their kids' behavior in public a time or two and received the looks and comments you get when your kid is having a bad day or going through a rough phase. Also, it doesn't take smart kids very long to figure out mom kind of has her hands tied when she's in a public place and probably isn't going to pull out the wooden spoon to give them a few swats and time out isn't going to work, either.

And there are those of us who do have special needs kids that look perfectly normal, but sometimes act like little freaks. It can take months of therapy to cancel some behaviors.

My kids rarely got away from me and didn't go around running into people (though my older son is capable of accidentally walking into someone if he's preoccupied) but once, when I had all four of my kids at the store, my daughter got loose and was running up and down the toy aisles. She and her sister normally stayed with me really well, but she got a wild hair or something and off she went. There I was with my two little boys in the cart and my older daughter who was still quite young and I'm thinking, "No way am I going to catch her pushing the cart. Do I leave the boys to possibly fall on their heads or do I let my little girl run around like a maniac?"

I can't remember what I did, but my daughter probably got a swat on her rear no matter who was watching. With that many kids, I had to be very strict about them staying near me when we were out or they totally would have been roadkill.

 

[Anja]

heart, I was referencing my Local Jesus. No need to feel misunderstood by me. I'll try to be more careful to be specific.

 

[heart]

To Cafe: But how does any of that relate to Whatever being spoken to harshly just because she's informed a parent that their child is bothering her?

If they are a conscientious parent, don't they want to be informed if their child is out of line? And as has been suggested, that this may have been a toddler, goodness gracious don't the parents want to be alerted that their toddler child has gotten completely out of their line of sight and attention?

It makes it appear as if this parent doesn't give a flying F and that would be 180 degress opposite of you, Ivy, Jeffster, Jennifer, or any other parent responding so defensively in this thread. If you aren't a parent who doesn't care, then why get defensive when parents who don't care are spoken of?

From what I got from Whatever's post, it wasn't so much the fact that the child touched her, it was that the parent reacted so strongly to being told about it.

heart, I was referencing my Local Jesus. No need to feel misunderstood by me. I'll try to be more careful to be specific.

Well, then sorry, your post came right under mine so it appeared that you were responding to me. I didn't feel misunderstood, I simply don't want anyone to put a different spin on what I say than the way I mean it without me clarifyng, especially on such an awful topic.

The troubled spirit thing still irks me but I'll get over it.

 

[Ivy]

I am here to express and if that means debating at times I am totally okay with it. I am not here specifically to "argue" with anyone but I am willing to voice differing opinions at times. (Did I stumble into "Fuzzy-Rainbow Central" without noticing it? )

This one has gone very well, I think. I'm always proud when the forum can have a spicy debate well within the confines of civility. No need for magic fairy dust when everyone seems to be holding their own without it.

 

[Tallulah]

heart, I think the parents who do care are just aware that it's far too easy, because of a million variables, to be seen as a parent that looks like they don't care. I think they're just trying to show all sides of the situation, rather than actually disagreeing that some parents are neglectful or apathetic.

 

[Ivy]

To Cafe: But how does any of that relate to Whatever being spoken to harshly just because she's informed a parent that their child is bothering her?

If they are a conscientious parent, don't they want to be informed if their child is out of line? And as has been suggested, that this may have been a toddler, goodness gracious don't the parents want to be alerted that their child has gotten completely out of their line of sight and attention?

It makes it appear as if this parent doesn't give a flying F and that would be 180 degress opposite of you, Ivy, Jeffster, Jennifer, or any other parent responding so defensively in this thread. If you aren't a parent who doesn't care, then why get defensive when parents who don't care are spoken of?

I would want to be informed of the behavior, but if the person goes beyond the immediate situation and insinuates something about my parenting in general, I don't think I would welcome the feedback quite as much. When Whatever immediately leaps to the conclusion that the parent is "neglecting their duty to society," I have a sneaking suspicion that her tone is accusatory and confrontational. When I've seen kids acting up, and the parent is clearly overwhelmed to the point that they can't deal with it, a kind word about how hard it must be and haven't we all had days like this can make a real difference rather than just adding more fuel to the fire.

Edit: Tallulah got it exactly.

 

[heart]

I guess my viewpoint is really colored by my interactions with neighboors and in-laws. I guess I am assuming she was adhering to basic respect and politeness.

I tried to be so understanding and patient and polite and yet some people just said "Oh well, that's kids! What ya' gonna do?" and it was maddening.

Like with the neighbor boy, we couldn't afford a fence at that time and we didn't see it as our responsibility to keep our yard safe enough for three-year olds, since we don't have any. Nor did I like the fact that I couldn't keep my curtains open and run around in a t-shirt and underwear at 7am in the back of my own home. This woman just looked at me and said "I'm lucky if he'll obey on the really important things." ! What's that boy doing roaming the neighborhood then?

When I've seen kids acting up, and the parent is clearly overwhelmed to the point that they can't deal with it, a kind word about how hard it must be and haven't we all had days like this can make a real difference rather than just adding more fuel to the fire.

But the child wasn't merely acting up, the child was away from the parent.



Hey, my elderly Dad got loose from my husband once at the mall when husband was paying at the cash register and the mall security had the place on "lost child lock down" and it was scary and horrible feeling for my husband. He came home and he said "Look we never, ever go anywhere with your Dad alone again, we tag team him. One of us has to have him in sight at all times from now on." And we stuck to it. I don't see why once wouldn't be enough with something as precious as a child. I just don't.

 

[cafe]

To Cafe: But how does any of that relate to Whatever being spoken to harshly just because she's informed a parent that their child is bothering her?

If they are a conscientious parent, don't they want to be informed if their child is out of line? And as has been suggested, that this may have been a toddler, goodness gracious don't the parents want to be alerted that their toddler child has gotten completely out of their line of sight and attention?

It makes it appear as if this parent doesn't give a flying F and that would be 180 degress opposite of you, Ivy, Jeffster, Jennifer, or any other parent responding so defensively in this thread. If you aren't a parent who doesn't care, then why get defensive when parents who don't care are spoken of?

From what I got from Whatever's post, it wasn't so much the fact that the child touched her, it was that the parent reacted so strongly to being told about it.

That parent probably didn't give a flying flip. But parents who do still get treated like crappy parents because everybody is an expert when it comes to parenting, so we get touchy about it. I can't imagine Whatever or you being anything but reasonable when it comes to this kind of thing, but . . . well . . . if you've never been the mom pushing the cart in which a screaming toddler is the passenger and everyone is looking at you like you are . . . well . . . a crappy parent, it's kind of hard to explain. Every parent, no matter how devoted has looked like and been treated like a crappy parent multiple times, I can pretty much guarantee it.

 

[heart]

That parent probably didn't give a flying flip. But parents who do still get treated like crappy parents because everybody is an expert when it comes to parenting, so we get touchy about it. I can't imagine Whatever or you being anything but reasonable when it comes to this kind of thing, but . . . well . . . if you've never been the mom pushing the cart in which a screaming toddler is the passenger and everyone is looking at you like you are . . . well . . . a crappy parent, it's kind of hard to explain. Every parent, no matter how devoted has looked like and been treated like a crappy parent multiple times, I can pretty much guarantee it.

I can agree with this. If a toddler is crying in their own cart with the parent right there, that's just life. The store is filled with temptations marketed directly at children and children get into bad moods, etc.

If childfree people are irritated by crying children they need to shop at odd hours or something.

Then again I've seen and heard lots of ridiculous, dysfunctional nonsense from adults when working in a department store. There's a whole spectrum of behaviors going on out there.

 

[Ivy]

I can say with confidence that neither of my children have ever licked a nutrition label like Martoon saw a grownup woman doing in the grocery store recently.

 

[heart]

I can say with confidence that neither of my children have ever licked a nutrition label like Martoon saw a grownup woman doing in the grocery store recently.

I wonder what was running through her mind? I hope she bought the item.

And here's the germ phobe in me, cans from the store are dirty. I cannot imagine licking one!

 

[Jeffster]

I can say with confidence that neither of my children have ever licked a nutrition label like Martoon saw a grownup woman doing in the grocery store recently.

That's how she reads. Give her a break.

 

[Anja]

*Pouts because Ivy doesn't want any magic INFP dust. Jumps on magic rainbow with her magic pet unicorn, who has behaved himself well in public because at home she beats him, and soars off into ozone for her happy, happy time, thinking about Mother Nature's bad rap.*

 

[Anja]

Guess I should add that the above post was a bit of self-deprecating humor.