What's with all the denying of reality, gaslighting etc?

[Abendrot]

To continue with empathy training we need to dedicate a thread that is only for practice and not for discussion.

One person says, I ............, and the partner responds with, you .......... The first person repeats this six times and the partner responds with you .... six times.

Then the partners swap roles and the second person says I something, something, something .... and the first partner responds with exactly the same words except substituting you for I, again for six times.

We do this six times turn and turn about.

And we do this for six days every second day.

This is mechanical, like learning the scales on the piano, but every day we do it we are learning how to use our empathic muscles.

And there comes a point where we get it, where we can take it for granted and start to extend our empathic range.

[MENTION=26032]Shaedow[/MENTION]

I initially had some interest in this idea of yours, but there is something condescending and snide about someone who denies other people's ability to empathize and or develop empathy on their own, and then proceeds to propose such demeaning exercises in order to "enlighten" them.

 

[Shaedow]

To continue with empathy training we need to dedicate a thread that is only for practice and not for discussion.

One person says, I ............, and the partner responds with, you .......... The first person repeats this six times and the partner responds with you .... six times.

Then the partners swap roles and the second person says I something, something, something .... and the first partner responds with exactly the same words except substituting you for I, again for six times.

We do this six times turn and turn about.

And we do this for six days every second day.

This is mechanical, like learning the scales on the piano, but every day we do it we are learning how to use our empathic muscles.

And there comes a point where we get it, where we can take it for granted and start to extend our empathic range.

[MENTION=26032]Shaedow[/MENTION]

Ok, that seems like a good process that can be followed and built upon.

How do you want to go about making this thread?
Would you be wanting to oversee it's progression and helping people stay on point?

I would be keen to give it ago.
I would also be happy to put a thread together and tag people in who seem interested so far

 

[1487610420]

was this a troll or ban me thread?

 

[Mole]

I initially had some interest in this idea of yours, but there is something condescending and snide about someone who denies other people's ability to empathize and or develop empathy on their own, and then proceeds to propose such demeaning exercises in order to "enlighten" them.

It's the same as learning to play the piano. The vain person may believe practising the musical scales is demeaning, but their vanity stands between them and the ability to play music.

To practise the scales requires commitment, so you are wise to reject the discipline of practice.

 

[Litsnob]

Perhaps we can leave dogs, grandchildren, and what you had for breakfast, and talk about articles you know nobody will read.

And you are fortunate to learn by discussing, you test your hypotheses. And you are always hoping someone will say something that makes you think, then you can respond, and hey, it's a conversation.

Yes, and a conversation is like a conversion, we convert each other.

And interestingly, this electronic medium is made for conversation.

Somehow I missed this reply so please do not think I was ignoring you. I'm avoiding Facebook now because everybody is talking about Superbowl and I have no interest in that so nothing to contribute. I just ate breakfast for dinner if that's of any interest.

Do you like electronic medium conversation better than real time, face to face conversation or is it just a substitute? For me it's a bit of both because I am definitely introverted and often housebound due to chronic illness but I do love a really good face to face conversation with just one other person. Maybe two. I like all the other clues that come with it like tone of voice, body language, facial expressions. I don't know where I am with people on electronic medium. I need more data.

 

[Mole]

Somehow I missed this reply so please do not think I was ignoring you. I'm avoiding Facebook now because everybody is talking about Superbowl and I have no interest in that so nothing to contribute. I just ate breakfast for dinner if that's of any interest.

Do you like electronic medium conversation better than real time, face to face conversation or is it just a substitute? For me it's a bit of both because I am definitely introverted and often housebound due to chronic illness but I do love a really good face to face conversation with just one other person. Maybe two. I like all the other clues that come with it like tone of voice, body language, facial expressions. I don't know where I am with people on electronic medium. I need more data.

I have found the internet has highlighted for me the value of face to face. It's as though face to face is in colour, while the internet is in black and white.

It seems the internet helps me think and organise my thoughts, while face to face is more about being in touch with feelings and emotions.

I do find though that I can read tone in a telephone call.

And yes, I read the newspaper every day, but I never read the Sports Section. And I have just finished a lovely chinese meal, followed by chocolate gelato - delicious, if that's any interest.

It's nice to talk with you, and I am guessing you are currently reading a book. I wonder what it is.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

The more I observe people, the more I see that humanity generally has a difficult time hearing anything that doesn't fit with their existing internal construct of reality. It is especially likely when a person has an ego or identity investment in their inner construct. In observing this, I realize how important it is for me to be hyper-vigilant about my own capacity to turn a deaf ear. I really don't want to do that, but want to learn whatever is true so I can best solve the problems of reality.

 

[Mole]

The more I observe people, the more I see that humanity generally has a difficult time hearing anything that doesn't fit with their existing internal construct of reality. It is especially likely when a person has an ego or identity investment in their inner construct. In observing this, I realize how important it is for me to be hyper-vigilant about my own capacity to turn a deaf ear. I really don't want to do that, but want to learn whatever is true so I can best solve the problems of reality.

I admire your wish to learn whatever is true. And we have been pursuing this since the Western Enlightenment in the 18th century.

We have learnt that Truth with a capital T, mystical truth, is not reasonably true, and is based on imagination, while we have learnt we can approach truth with a small t with evidence and reason.

However narcissism ignores evidence and reason in favour of wish fulfilment. This is not trivial as we have elected a narcissistic President who has abandoned evidence and reason and even morality in his dealings with the political killer, Putin. And it is not trivial because we all belong to an American cult, based not on evidence and reason, but narcissism.

So our choice is between the consolations of narcissism or fresh air of integrity.

In the meantime the therapy for narcissism is not sympathy but empathy. It is true empathy is learnt through the discipline of practice, and so is not readily available.

 

[Litsnob]

I have found the internet has highlighted for me the value of face to face. It's as though face to face is in colour, while the internet is in black and white.

It seems the internet helps me think and organise my thoughts, while face to face is more about being in touch with feelings and emotions.

I do find though that I can read tone in a telephone call.

And yes, I read the newspaper every day, but I never read the Sports Section. And I have just finished a lovely chinese meal, followed by chocolate gelato - delicious, if that's any interest.

It's nice to talk with you, and I am guessing you are currently reading a book. I wonder what it is.

I like your descriptions of how the internet is black and white and face to face in colour. On the internet we sometimes have the chance to edit what we've said, which is not so easy in face to face conversation. I come across more tersely on the internet than I do face to face and sometimes lose track of that, forgetting how blunt my words might seem without that tone of voice or facial expression context. With a chronic illness I am usually exhausted. I don't get much offline interaction other than my partner and my mother, but sometimes when interacting online I am still too exhausted to really be doing it properly. Properly as in paying close enough attention to what I am saying and how it comes across. I am better at being in touch with other people's feelings and emotions than I am with my own in offline interaction. It takes me awhile to actually identify my own feelings but I seem better able recognise them in the behaviour and words of others. I think this is probably why I am a bit of a navel gazer. I have to or I'd be really in the dark.

I don't read the sports section either. I have no idea who is playing in the Superbowl or which sport matches up with any of the random team names I happen to know.

I am currently reading three books, though not at exactly the same time. I usually have two on the go-a fiction and a non fiction but I am learning sentential logic so counting that book as well. Otherwise, reading a biography of Michel Montaigne and just starting The Children Act, Ian McEwan.

I ate too many brownies and am feeling the regret in my gut. In order to be able to say I'd eaten my veggies today, I ate some curried squash soup. I am envious of your Chinese meal, particularly if it involved chow mein. Chocolate gelato is always of interest!

It's nice talking with you too and I too wonder what you are reading.

 

[highlander]

I've found that a lot of people don't even know what this term means, and yet it pervades our society on so many levels.

10 Things I've Learned About Gaslighting
I like no. 8 the best - just put them on ignore

1. Gaslighting Doesn’t Have to Be Deliberate. Gaslighting does not require deliberate plotting. Gaslighting only requires a belief that it is acceptable to overwrite another person’s reality.

2. Manipulation and Gaslighting Are Distinct Behaviors. Gaslighting uses threats as well, but has the goal of actually changing who someone is, not just their behavior.

3. Gaslighting Doesn’t Always Involve Anger or Intimidation. In another type of gaslighting, the gaslighter is always transformed into the victim. Whenever you bring up a problem, you find yourself apologizing by the end of the conversation.

4. It’s Normal Not to Be Able to Remember What Happened. It’s normal to lose your memory when you’re being gaslighted.

5. There Are Distinct Stages (And These Stages Can Progress After the Relationship Is Over)
In stage one, you know that they’re being ridiculous, but you argue anyways.
In stage two, you consider your gaslighter’s point of view first and try desperately to get them to see your point of view as well.
In stage three, when you’re hurt, you first ask, “What’s wrong with me?”

6. There Are Distinct Traits That Make You More Susceptible to Gaslighting, But They Can Also Be Super Powers

7. You Know What Your Truth Is – You Always Have, and You Always Will

8. The End Game Is Not Confrontation, It’s Non-Engagement

9. You Must Confront the Threat

10. Gaslighting May Be Amplified in Families, Poly Relationships, and Other Groups

Gaslighting Techniques
Notice the reference to trivializing the other person as an a gaslightling technique.

Withholding" is one gaslighting technique where the abuser feigns a lack of understanding, refuses to listen and declines sharing his emotions.

Another gaslighting technique is "countering," where an abuser will vehemently call into question a victim's memory in spite of the victim having remembered things correctly.

"Blocking" and "diverting" are gaslighting techniques whereby the abuser again changes the conversation from the subject matter to questioning the victim's thoughts and controlling the conversation.

"Trivializing" is another way of gaslighting. It involves making the victim believe his or her thoughts or needs aren't important.

Abusive "forgetting" and "denial" can also be forms of gaslighting. In this technique, the abuser pretends to forget things that have really occurred; the abuser may also deny things like promises that have been made that are important to the victim.

I never heard of gaslighting before joining this forum. I guess if people are experiencing this there must some validity to it though it surprises me that people are susceptible to these kinds of tactics and they actually work. I sometimes wonder if people who are complaining about it might sometimes be imagining that others are doing it to them as well. I'm not aways convinced the perceptions are valid.

I don't think these techniques would ever work on me personally and I would tend to attribute the behavior of someone doing the gaslighting to one of several things
- An integrity issue and intentional deceit
- An issue with distorted perceptions, poor memory or lapses in critical thinking skills (i.e. maybe they are suffering from early dementia, are messed up in the head or crazy)
- Personal views that I simply disagree with or that I find lacking in validity; they are so far from my reality that there is little point in talking to them

If someone did these things with me, I would deal with them if I had to but would tend think less of the person engaging in this and take them less seriously. I would begin to avoid them as they would come across to me as unpleasant, unpredictable, drama inducing and/or untrustworthy. Come to think of it there is this one person I know - I guess I just try to deal with her idiosyncrasies and stay on good terms because I have no choice - attempting not to do things that would set her off. At no point do I ever think I'm doing something wrong when she is forgetful and rude/abrasive. It makes me a little sad actually because she is someone that in many ways I have had a lot of respect for.

 

[Mole]

I like your descriptions of how the internet is black and white and face to face in colour. On the internet we sometimes have the chance to edit what we've said, which is not so easy in face to face conversation. I come across more tersely on the internet than I do face to face and sometimes lose track of that, forgetting how blunt my words might seem without that tone of voice or facial expression context. With a chronic illness I am usually exhausted. I don't get much offline interaction other than my partner and my mother, but sometimes when interacting online I am still too exhausted to really be doing it properly. Properly as in paying close enough attention to what I am saying and how it comes across. I am better at being in touch with other people's feelings and emotions than I am with my own in offline interaction. It takes me awhile to actually identify my own feelings but I seem better able recognise them in the behaviour and words of others. I think this is probably why I am a bit of a navel gazer. I have to or I'd be really in the dark.

I don't read the sports section either. I have no idea who is playing in the Superbowl or which sport matches up with any of the random team names I happen to know.

I am currently reading three books, though not at exactly the same time. I usually have two on the go-a fiction and a non fiction but I am learning sentential logic so counting that book as well. Otherwise, reading a biography of Michel Montaigne and just starting The Children Act, Ian McEwan.

I ate too many brownies and am feeling the regret in my gut. In order to be able to say I'd eaten my veggies today, I ate some curried squash soup. I am envious of your Chinese meal, particularly if it involved chow mein. Chocolate gelato is always of interest!

It's nice talking with you too and I too wonder what you are reading.

I started off with children's books like Wind in the Willows, then adolescent books like John Brown's School Days and The Coral Island, then onto Sherlock Holmes, and to science fiction like Analog, then 19th century novels like The Mill on the Floss and War and Peace, then I discovered psychology with The Divided Self and The Way of Trance, and then metaphysics with Understanding Media and The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.

Today I rise early have a nice breakfast, log onto the internet and write to Typology Central.

I notice I have two modes: one in which I am focused and know what to do, and the second where I don't know what to do. And it is the second where I write interesting things.

And it is the second mode I am most interested in.

 

[Radio Bob]

This was a very interesting thread to read. Much to digest. Some real life thoughts for me and some not. Thanks to any who shared thoughts and started some gears grinding.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I admire your wish to learn whatever is true. And we have been pursuing this since the Western Enlightenment in the 18th century.

We have learnt that Truth with a capital T, mystical truth, is not reasonably true, and is based on imagination, while we have learnt we can approach truth with a small t with evidence and reason.

However narcissism ignores evidence and reason in favour of wish fulfilment. This is not trivial as we have elected a narcissistic President who has abandoned evidence and reason and even morality in his dealings with the political killer, Putin. And it is not trivial because we all belong to an American cult, based not on evidence and reason, but narcissism.

So our choice is between the consolations of narcissism or fresh air of integrity.

In the meantime the therapy for narcissism is not sympathy but empathy. It is true empathy is learnt through the discipline of practice, and so is not readily available.

The disturbing issue is that I suspect most people 'want' to know the truth on some level and would identify themselves as sharing the same desire I described. What if I'm no different? I have been blind at times, so yes, the desire for truth is good and important, but I am not claiming mastery of that process. I fall into the same traps as other people, so I say it as a cautionary warning to myself as much as anyone else.

I never heard of gaslighting before joining this forum. I guess if people are experiencing this there must some validity to it though it surprises me that people are susceptible to these kinds of tactics and they actually work. I sometimes wonder if people who are complaining about it might sometimes be imagining that others are doing it to them as well. I'm not aways convinced the perceptions are valid.

I don't think these techniques would ever work on me personally and I would tend to attribute the behavior of someone doing the gaslighting to one of several things
- An integrity issue and intentional deceit
- An issue with distorted perceptions, poor memory or lapses in critical thinking skills (i.e. maybe they are suffering from early dementia, are messed up in the head or crazy)
- Personal views that I simply disagree with or that I find lacking in validity; they are so far from my reality that there is little point in talking to them

If someone did these things with me, I would deal with them if I had to but would tend think less of the person engaging in this and take them less seriously. I would begin to avoid them as they would come across to me as unpleasant, unpredictable, drama inducing and/or untrustworthy. Come to think of it there is this one person I know - I guess I just try to deal with her idiosyncrasies and stay on good terms because I have no choice - attempting not to do things that would set her off. At no point do I ever think I'm doing something wrong when she is forgetful and rude/abrasive. It makes me a little sad actually because she is someone that in many ways I have had a lot of respect for.

I can see that. People who are clear and objective in their thinking and have a strong ego-sense (not arrogance, just a healthy stable sense of self) are the least affected by these things. People who are lonely or emotionally vulnerable and "need" a positive outcome of acceptance from someone are the ones most vulnerable to it. Strangers/acquaintances would have a hard time pulling this off on me, but if it is family or my partner, then yes, it can happen to me. I wish it couldn't, but it can.

 

[Bush]

The disturbing issue is that I suspect most people 'want' to know the truth on some level and would identify themselves as sharing the same desire I described. What if I'm no different? I have been blind at times, so yes, the desire for truth is good and important, but I am not claiming mastery of that process. I fall into the same traps as other people, so I say it as a cautionary warning to myself as much as anyone else.

I feel you here. It's difficult, for sure.

I figure that it's better for us to develop confidence in our process of uncovering the truth, rather than what could become overconfidence that we already have it. We're still anchoring ourselves to something solid, but we don't have to worry as much about getting our egos attached to the outcome and, subsequently, that we won't have as much motivation to hold onto falsehoods.

Hell, recognizing that biases even exist and that none of us are immune is 75% of the battle.

 

[Mole]

We tend to be blind to our environments just as we tend to be blind to our parents.

This is understandable as we are dependent on our environments just as we are dependent on our parents. So we start to panic and to deny when our institutions are not dependable.

For instance, Australia'a Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse has just now called all the Australian Bishops before it. And the statistics of Catholic child abuse have been revealed. They are so extensive and cover such a long period that it is plain the institution of Catholicism is not dependable. Yet Catholics still send their children to Catholic schools in very large numbers, even though the Vatican itself still refuses to make its records of child sexual abuse available to Australia's Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse.

Our environment here is mbti and unsurprisingly mbti is a fraud, a confidence trick, that uses exactly the same techniques as astrology to be plausible.

We are dependent on mbti just as children are dependent on bad parents, we deny the nature of our parents, we say how good they are, and we attack those who say the emperor has no clothes.

Naturally we want to feel safe, we want to belong, we want to show our mastery of the jargon of mbti, all at the expense of our self respect.

 

[PalebloodHunter]

Hmm, It seems I was gaslighted while dating a sociopath. Oh, well makes me feel all the more satisfied to have gotten even with her.

Ain't nobody dimming the lights of an ENTP baby!

 

[Mole]

Hmm, It seems I was gaslighted while dating a sociopath. Oh, well makes me feel all the more satisfied to have gotten even with her.

Ain't nobody dimming the lights of an ENTP baby!

When we get even with our lover and assassinate her character as a sociopath, we are dimming our lights.

 

[citizen cane]

It seems to me as though [MENTION=25922]Blackout[/MENTION] seems intent on showcasing the worst of the forum's reaction to what seem to be insecurity issues and short temper, although there is always the chance that more is going on behind the scenes that we are not seeing. Perhaps this instance could be used as an opportunity for growth and reflection rather than name-calling and mud slinging. That goes for all of us. There is always room for growth.

 

[Litsnob]

I started off with children's books like Wind in the Willows, then adolescent books like John Brown's School Days and The Coral Island, then onto Sherlock Holmes, and to science fiction like Analog, then 19th century novels like The Mill on the Floss and War and Peace, then I discovered psychology with The Divided Self and The Way of Trance, and then metaphysics with Understanding Media and The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.

Today I rise early have a nice breakfast, log onto the internet and write to Typology Central.

I notice I have two modes: one in which I am focused and know what to do, and the second where I don't know what to do. And it is the second where I write interesting things.

And it is the second mode I am most interested in.

I read Wind in the Willows when I was in grade five and wrote a very long and detailed book report on it. I think it might be the first book that really showed me how attracted I was to literature as a form of character study. For the most part my fiction reading is focused on character driven novels. I just finished McEwan's The Children Act and really loved it. There is nothing like that feeling of coming to the end of a book and just sitting there savouring all that I've read and feeling moved by it in some way that I am only just beginning to define. I have a very useless degree in English Lit and The Wind in the Willows might be to blame for that. LOL I minored in Psychology but probably should have majored in it and gone to a career in research psychology. I think that might have suited me better than teaching, but then in the end it turned out I was too ill for a career anyhow.

I have all my most exciting thoughts in that moment when I am lying in bed just about to fall asleep, so of course I immediately scribble them all down in one of my journals or even grab my laptop and bang out a first draft or essay outline. Sometimes just as I am about to fall asleep an entire poem composes itself in my head and I am too tired to record it. That is so frustrating, these lost ideas and compositions. It saddens me. These contemplative times that lead to writing are among my happiest but I also paint and I get so lost in the painting that I lose my sense of self and of time. I used to have that experience gardening but I cannot garden anymore. The loss of gardening brought me back to painting and so it's not a painful loss.

When you don't know what to do, when you are in the second mode, are you still or restless? Does not knowing what to do instantly become writing and thus something to do? Or is it a long period of of this not knowing and of not doing?

 

[Mole]

When you don't know what to do, when you are in the second mode, are you still or restless? Does not knowing what to do instantly become writing and thus something to do? Or is it a long period of of this not knowing and of not doing?

When I sit down at the computer, I don't know what to write, and I immediately feel an intense fear, it lasts a moment and I start to write. I enter the writing trance, time disappears and I awaken hours later surprised to find the clock has moved so far without me. Then I enjoy reading what I have written.

I wake at 6am every morning, take my computer to the free WiFi, have a nice breakfast, then with pleasure I open my computer and let it carry me away.

There is no hiatus, it all flows reliably without me doing anything.

I am quite like Mole, who are you most like in Wind in the Willows?