What's with Social Justice Warriors?

[Totenkindly]

That's the problem, it is not up to you or the non-binaries to decide those things for me either.

If they become demanding or imposing, it will backfire.

Yes.

So are you saying you agree with the rest of my post? And your main issue is that you just don't like people demanding that you respect them, but if you didn't feel they were as pushy, then you would actually be willing to accommodate?

I do have to note: You are already getting your way. You are not accommodating them. SO it is NOT a neutral situation, where things are in a holding pattern; you actually are already getting your way, and this is about whether you are going to change to accommodate. So no need for false equivalences here...

 

[yeghor]

So are you saying you agree with the rest of my post? And your main issue is that you just don't like people demanding that you respect them, but if you didn't feel they were as pushy, then you would actually be willing to accommodate?

I do have to note: You are already getting your way. You are not accommodating them. SO it is NOT a neutral situation, where things are in a holding pattern; you actually are already getting your way, and this is about whether you are going to change to accommodate. So no need for false equivalences here...

It is not about respect. It is about people demanding/dictating that I adapt their mindset/ideology.

The key point is that's up to me to decide when the time comes, if I ever run into a non-gender person.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It is not about respect. It is about people demanding/dictating that I adapt their mindset/ideology.

What is threatening to you about that mindset/ideology?

 

[yeghor]

What is threatening to you about that mindset/ideology?

It is extremely self-centered (narcissistic/entitled) and lacks self-awareness (another trait of narcissism) and is therefore unable to see its own flaws and the needs besides their own (lack of empathy).

Here is a list of 9 Traits of a Narcissist & Behaviour to Watch For.

• Lack of Empathy. A lack of empathy may be the key defining characteristic of a narcissistic person.
• Manipulative.
• Projection.
• Emotionally Cold.
• Gaslighting.
• Never Takes Responsibility.
• Controlling.
• Grandiose.

 

[ceecee]

It is not about respect. It is about people demanding/dictating that I adapt their mindset/ideology.

The key point is that's up to me to decide when the time comes, if I ever run into a non-gender person.

Nah. It's no different than a person you just met telling you their name then expecting you to call them by that name and not some other name you arbitrarily made up that adapts to your own ideology.

 

[ceecee]

All I understood from the video is that there are far right activist youtubers who are against SJWs because the latter is leftist, and the former are misrepresenting SJWs (and the video implies SJWs are actually not that bad?). He does not care to explain what SJWs are actually are. He just counter-attacks anti SJWs.

Any mindset be it right or left, if it lacks critical thinking and self-checks, will lead to delusional (in case of left) or preferential (in case of right) biased thinking, dogmatism, partisanship etc.

The kettle-pot argument in the video is a logical fallacy in itself. It does not justify the positions of the either ideology.

When we develop all our functions over time, our understanding of the world moves from the extreme ends of the political spectrum to the centre. We become more well-rounded. Both SJWs and anti-SJWs are extremists IMO.



That is interesting isn't it? Can there be an alternative explanation for that?

He's saying how you, a person, can fall down the anti-SJW rabbit hole very easily and how that comes to be for most people. Which is pretty clearly what's happened here.

 

[yeghor]

Nah. It's no different than a person you just met telling you their name then expecting you to call them by that name and not some other name you arbitrarily made up that adapts to your own ideology.

I already have a default set of "names" for the gender.

It is rather like someone dictating me that I should not call a cat in their lap "cat" because the cat does not feel like a "cat" so I should just refer to it as a "pet" or the "thing".

It is a bit like brainwashing. The cat is still cat to me if it looks and walks like a cat. I might choose to refer to it as a cat, or a pet, that's up to me.

We have honorifics when referring to our elders here. Depending on the age difference, we might refer to senior ladies as elder sis or auntie.

Sometimes when you refer to a senior lady as auntie, some of them act irritated and insist to be referred to as elder sis cause auntie makes them feel too old.

The business with the non-binary pronoun issue feels to me like capricousness similar to that but taken to extreme levels.

 

[yeghor]

He's saying how you, a person, can fall down the anti-SJW rabbit hole very easily and how that comes to be for most people. Which is pretty clearly what's happened here.

Not clear to me. He is not explaining it, just giving examples.

 

[Coriolis]

I already have a default set of "names" for the gender.

It is rather like someone dictating me that I should not call a cat in their lap "cat" because the cat does not feel like a "cat" so I should just refer to it as a "pet" or the "thing".

It is a bit like brainwashing. The cat is still cat to me if it looks and walks like a cat. I might choose to refer to it as a cat, or a pet, that's up to me.

We have honorifics when referring to our elders here. Depending on the age difference, we might refer to senior ladies as elder sis or auntie.

Sometimes when you refer to a senior lady as auntie, some of them act irritated and insist to be referred to as elder sis cause auntie makes them feel too old.

The business with the non-binary pronoun issue feels to me like capricousness similar to that but taken to extreme levels.

I guess you would have been right in step with the (white) folks who used to call grown black men "boy" just because they were used to doing that. If someone introduces himself as "Mark" do you call him "Jason" if he looks more like a Jason to you? Do you call married women by their husband's last name, even if they are still using their original one? Addressing people as they prefer is just Courtesy 101. Occasionally that involves learning to pronounce names from an unfamiliar language, unlearning patterns we were raised with, or overriding assumptions that prove incorrect. If someone is unwilling to expend the minimal effort needed to do these simple things, it indicates a fundamental disregard for their fellow human beings. I suppose in that sense it can be a useful indicator that such a person is likely to be a problem in more significant interactions.

 

[ceecee]

I already have a default set of "names" for the gender.

It is rather like someone dictating me that I should not call a cat in their lap "cat" because the cat does not feel like a "cat" so I should just refer to it as a "pet" or the "thing".

It is a bit like brainwashing. The cat is still cat to me if it looks and walks like a cat. I might choose to refer to it as a cat, or a pet, that's up to me.

We have honorifics when referring to our elders here. Depending on the age difference, we might refer to senior ladies as elder sis or auntie.

Sometimes when you refer to a senior lady as auntie, some of them act irritated and insist to be referred to as elder sis cause auntie makes them feel too old.

The business with the non-binary pronoun issue feels to me like capricousness similar to that but taken to extreme levels.

lol

 

[yeghor]

I guess you would have been right in step with the (white) folks who used to call grown black men "boy" just because they were used to doing that. If someone introduces himself as "Mark" do you call him "Jason" if he looks more like a Jason to you? Do you call married women by their husband's last name, even if they are still using their original one? Addressing people as they prefer is just Courtesy 101. Occasionally that involves learning to pronounce names from an unfamiliar language, unlearning patterns we were raised with, or overriding assumptions that prove incorrect. If someone is unwilling to expend the minimal effort needed to do these simple things, it indicates a fundamental disregard for their fellow human beings. I suppose in that sense it can be a useful indicator that such a person is likely to be a problem in more significant interactions.

Yes but calling someone he or she based on their looks is not inherently degrading.

 

[Coriolis]

Yes but calling someone he or she based on their looks is not inherently degrading.

Why not? Why is it less degrading than insisting on calling Mark by the name Jason, or calling a grown man "boy"?

 

[yeghor]

Why not? Why is it less degrading than insisting on calling Mark by the name Jason, or calling a grown man "boy"?

Because when you call someone "boy" you assume superiority over them. If a white guy addressed a white peer "boy", the second guy would feel offended as well, so it is degrading when used on whites as well not specific to a disadvantaged group. If it were done to me, I would feel offended/degraded myself.

He and she OTOH are not special names (such as our identity names) but generic names (pronouns). So calling a man "he" and a woman "she" is not inherently degrading, but referring to them with a different identity name when you know their true name is either a mistake or socially inappropriate or deliberately taunting someone.

Why someone feels offended by "he" or "she", that's an entirely different matter to investigate. I would feel offended if mistakenly referred to as "she" but would let it go if the mistake was genuine.

There's no need to be offended if someone refers to you with a gender pronoun suited to your clothing style and overall looks. There's no need to make a fuss over it unless you have too much self-importance.

Now it occured to me that this ambiguity in gender (or refusal to decide on gender) is a bit similar to agnostics (probably INTPs) refusing to make a decision on whether God exists or not but that does not have any affect on linguistics or daily life.

This probably is an INFP thing then when referred to in either pronoun they must be feeling that other people have decided their gender (which is everchanging for them I guess) for them but they have to learn to deal with it. They should understand that most people's minds do not work like theirs (Ne) and other people has to choose one of the pronouns to refer to other people to carry out communication.

Non-Ne people's minds do not work like theirs and dictating that other people who are low in Ne to assume this kind of ambigous (crazy) mindset is actually stressful and taxing on the sensors.

Language cannot be dictated. It has its own natural course. Maybe in time a gender-neutral pronoun will replace he and she so this will cease to be an issue.

 

[Coriolis]

Because when you call someone "boy" you assume superiority over them. If a white guy addressed a white peer "boy", the second guy would feel offended as well, so it is degrading when used on whites as well not specific to a disadvantaged group. If it were done to me, I would feel offended/degraded myself.

He and she OTOH are not special names (such as our identity names) but generic names (pronouns). So calling a man "he" and a woman "she" is not inherently degrading, but referring to them with a different identity name when you know their true name is either a mistake or socially inappropriate or deliberately taunting someone.

Why someone feels offended by "he" or "she", that's an entirely different matter to investigate. I would feel offended if mistakenly referred to as "she" but would let it go if the mistake was genuine.

There's no need to be offended if someone refers to you with a gender pronoun suited to your clothing style and overall looks. There's no need to make a fuss over it unless you have too much self-importance.

Now it occured to me that this ambiguity in gender (or refusal to decide on gender) is a bit similar to agnostics (probably INTPs) refusing to make a decision on whether God exists or not but that does not have any affect on linguistics or daily life.

This probably is an INFP thing then when referred to in either pronoun they must be feeling that other people have decided their gender (which is everchanging for them I guess) for them but they have to learn to deal with it. They should understand that most people's minds do not work like theirs (Ne) and other people has to choose one of the pronouns to refer to other people to carry out communication.

Non-Ne people's minds do not work like theirs and dictating that other people who are low in Ne to assume this kind of ambigous (crazy) mindset is actually stressful and taxing on the sensors.

Language cannot be dictated. It has its own natural course. Maybe in time a gender-neutral pronoun will replace he and she so this will cease to be an issue.

We dictate language every time we introduce ourselves. The black man feels insulted because he is not in fact a boy. Calling an actual child "boy", by contrast, is appropriate. Yes, calling a man "he" is not degrading, even if he is wearing a dress or presenting/behaving in a way atypical for men. That is all most trans people want. How often would you "let it go" if you were mistakenly referred to as "she"? At what point would you begin to wonder if the mistake really were "genuine", whatever that even means?

 

[yeghor]

We dictate language every time we introduce ourselves. The black man feels insulted because he is not in fact a boy. Calling an actual child "boy", by contrast, is appropriate. Yes, calling a man "he" is not degrading, even if he is wearing a dress or presenting/behaving in a way atypical for men. That is all most trans people want. How often would you "let it go" if you were mistakenly referred to as "she"? At what point would you begin to wonder if the mistake really were "genuine", whatever that even means?

I meant language is a living organism and artificial changes to it cannot be introduced or forced, they have to be adopted by the speakers naturally to take root. That requires the change to stem from a need felt or experienced by a majority.

The problem is that because of Ne, their gender identity in their mind is constantly changing so there is no way for the outsiders to know what gender they are feeling like at any given moment. So maybe it is they who should accommodate others in this case.

When to know if the mistake is not genuine, if they repeated it with a smug face when I corrected them, I would think it is deliberate. If I asked them to address me as "they" they would probably say "wtf?".

In the video below (when you play it), I would address the people as follows:

1) She but very difficult to tell apart, if they corrected me, I would not hesitate to address them as he
2) Definitely she
3) She
4) He

 

[Jai]

I won't lie, this thread is literally distressing to read and yet I can't look away. [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], you accuse those that want to be seen a certain way as being narcissistic and oppressive, yet you fail to take into account context in any sort of measure. You should step back for a second and reflect, and maybe you'll have the epiphany that is needed, which is that this isn't about you. It isn't about your ideology, it isn't about how you feel, it isn't about what you think is right. It is about the other person. The oppressive one in this situation would be you; those that are non-binary are in the minority here and the world is still sadly in a state in which they refuse to accept anything that exists outside what they're used to experiencing. Those that are non-binary are the ones that are being oppressed, being referred to in a way in which they expressly state that they do not like. You come across like the kind of person that lacks self-awareness and empathy for others, making situations about yourself while claiming that the other party is the uncaring one simply because they don't fit into your worldview. It's also amusing as well as appalling that you would attempt to use typology as a way of justifying your discrimination, like I don't even know how to respond to that. It's simple: Call people what they want to be called. It's not difficult and it's not going to cost you anything. Your mindset is an example of the wider issue of many being obsessed with how things were, inhibiting necessary progress as a result. You are not the arbiter of gender. You do not decide whether someone's identity is their 'true identity' or not. You are not justified in refusing to accept that social stereotypes of gender do not outweigh an individual's preference. This is 2021, not the 1950s; trans people exist and are valid, non-binary people exist and are valid, and though you are unlikely to change your mind on this issue, the world will leave you behind in time and you will eventually be in the minority of people, having memes made about your ignorance, not unlike flat-earthers for example. Thank you [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION], [MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION], and all the others that are willing to accept others for who they are, at least in this aspect, and for having the immeasurable energy reserves it apparently takes to simply not offend others.

 

[Coriolis]

I meant language is a living organism and artificial changes to it cannot be introduced or forced, they have to be adopted by the speakers naturally to take root. That requires the change to stem from a need felt or experienced by a majority.

The problem is that because of Ne, their gender identity in their mind is constantly changing so there is no way for the outsiders to know what gender they are feeling like at any given moment. So maybe it is they who should accommodate others in this case.

When to know if the mistake is not genuine, if they repeated it with a smug face when I corrected them, I would think it is deliberate. If I asked them to address me as "they" they would probably say "wtf?".

Then I guess it will be speakers other than you who form the vanguard of changing language the more accurately to reflect the people to whom it refers. I would consider repetition without apology, even after multiple corrections, as not a genuine mistake, whether the person appears smug or no. I think part of the trouble is that you are assuming everyone who does not fit cleanly into the established gender binary with visible cues familiar to you, has a gender identity that is a moving target. Some people do consider themselves genderfluid, and would meet this description. I suppose if they change how they want to be addressed day by day, that would get confusing and take extra effort to follow. For most of us, though, our gender is firmly fixed, just not the one people have been used to, or may assume at first glance.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It is extremely self-centered (narcissistic/entitled) and lacks self-awareness (another trait of narcissism) and is therefore unable to see its own flaws and the needs besides their own (lack of empathy).

Here is a list of 9 Traits of a Narcissist & Behaviour to Watch For.

• Lack of Empathy. A lack of empathy may be the key defining characteristic of a narcissistic person.
• Manipulative.
• Projection.
• Emotionally Cold.
• Gaslighting.
• Never Takes Responsibility.
• Controlling.
• Grandiose.

Ok, pretty much know now it's not worth my time to discuss this with you. I have a general tendency to disregard the casual use of the word "narcissist" on the internet (apparently narcissism is so common that everyone's ex is one), and ironically the use of it highlights to me that they aren't going to be open to understanding a POV different than their own. ("It's narcissism when other people share different perspectives, but when I insist on other people adopting mine, that's just common sense and logic.")

Also very little of that behavior listed above really seems to be applied to the behavior of folks wanting to be identified by a different pronoun than the one you think is "correct."

 

[Lark]

Ok, pretty much know now it's not worth my time to discuss this with you. I have a general tendency to disregard the casual use of the word "narcissist" on the internet (apparently narcissism is so common that everyone's ex is one), and ironically the use of it highlights to me that they aren't going to be open to understanding a POV different than their own. ("It's narcissism when other people share different perspectives, but when I insist on other people adopting mine, that's just common sense and logic.")

Also very little of that behavior listed above really seems to be applied to the behavior of folks wanting to be identified by a different pronoun than the one you think is "correct."

It kind of makes you wonder, this guy turns up and is singing precisely, or seemingly so, from the Mole Hymn sheet, either Mole had more influence that we realized or the same source feeding Mole has been feeding these guys too.

Its like go team Klan Troll or something.

 

[yeghor]

Ok, pretty much know now it's not worth my time to discuss this with you. I have a general tendency to disregard the casual use of the word "narcissist" on the internet (apparently narcissism is so common that everyone's ex is one), and ironically the use of it highlights to me that they aren't going to be open to understanding a POV different than their own. ("It's narcissism when other people share different perspectives, but when I insist on other people adopting mine, that's just common sense and logic.")

Also very little of that behavior listed above really seems to be applied to the behavior of folks wanting to be identified by a different pronoun than the one you think is "correct."

You are not worth my time either if we are going to play the devaluation game.

Then I guess it will be speakers other than you who form the vanguard of changing language the more accurately to reflect the people to whom it refers. I would consider repetition without apology, even after multiple corrections, as not a genuine mistake, whether the person appears smug or no. I think part of the trouble is that you are assuming everyone who does not fit cleanly into the established gender binary with visible cues familiar to you, has a gender identity that is a moving target. Some people do consider themselves genderfluid, and would meet this description. I suppose if they change how they want to be addressed day by day, that would get confusing and take extra effort to follow. For most of us, though, our gender is firmly fixed, just not the one people have been used to, or may assume at first glance.

Maybe, time will tell.