Questions about existential crises

[Galena]

1. As far as I remember, I became aware of death somewhat randomly while laying in bed when I was maybe four years old. I panicked and ran to get my mom.

The most I was capable of imagining of it was silent, sensation-less blackness that would last forever. I have never been able to truly believe that there is anything more waiting for us in the beyond.

2. I have never felt a meaninglessness to life, even when I have been at my lowest (and that's pretty low). If anything, I'm more prone to in crisis prescribe over-significance to it all, and to every little action.

I agree with your feeling that we need not be hugely influential in the universe for our lives to be meaningful. Maybe my definition of it is just more local - if humanity is just a blip in the universe, but I can be good to my loved ones while I'm here, and create something beautiful to share with others, that is plenty meaningful IMO.

The idea that there is no meaning to existence has always irritated me, particularly when people push that outlook as if it's more enlightened. If I need to seek a meaning, that's my own business. If it makes life more difficult to feel like I have a stake in it, that's my chosen responsibility.

 

[CitizenErased]

See, I'm not toally convinced of the whole sense of meaninglessness surrounding the "infiniteness of the universe". I've yet to find it frightening or depressing, but incredibly fascinating or exhilarating, even empowering. Then points like yours about "we could disappear and no none would care" trip me up, because I know I shouldn't feel the way I do. I have a hard time seeing why that even matters, why does there need to be some other consciousness to care about what we do? Why does one's existence need to affect the entire universe to be "meaningful", especially seeing how meaning requires a discerning consciousness.

I consdier myself a romanticist at heart too but still wrestle with this every now and then.

...

I'm doing thinking wrong and this is why I made the thread.

So, if you think there's one purpose/meaning for humans/the world/the universe,

a) what would happen to you if you don't find it and instead do something that makes you happy but it's not what you are supposed to do?

b) if there's a greater entity that wants to find a purpose,

b.1) why doesn't it give it to you when you're born/give you clues about what it is?

b.2) why would it want you to spend your whole "earthly" life trying to find a purpose that it already knows what it is?

b.3) why would it want you to be unhappy, thinking about your purpose?

b.3.1) why would YOU choose to spend your life being unhappy about life seeming to have no meaning/not being able to find a meaning for life? As far as I'm concerned, beliefs are awesome because you can start/stop believing in them whenever you want.

c) couldn't it be that having a "meaningful" life means living according to your inner values, or doing things that make you feel a better/happier person?

I don't think there's such a thing as "thinking wrong" (yes, there is, but not about this). When it comes to beliefs and how one experiences life, one is bound to have a personal point of view and a personal way in which outer things affect us. Coming from a 100% thinking, 0% action person, sometimes one has to stop thinking about the hidden motives/meanings and just do stuff.

If you were all day doing things that make you happy, without hurting yourself or others, would you care that maybe you're not following what some invisible entity had planned for you? I don't think so. So, maybe every person's purpose is to enjoy themselves, trying to keep themselves safe and not hurting others. That's what I think. If you find another meaning for your OWN life (one that doesn't include a greater, holistic meaning for all people) that makes you happy, just follow it!

This reminds me of a book, The Greater Theater of the World, by Calderón de la Barca (at the end of the Spanish Golden Age). He writes that there's an Author (God) that writes a play (with humans as characters), and the meaning/purpose of each character is to represent the best they can the part that has been assigned to them. I think that if the human proved something along these years is that one is able to change one's future and make choices that may not "match" the role we were "born to do".

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=26997]CitizenErased[/MENTION]

 

[Lark]

1. When and how did you first become aware of death, and/or that you would one day die?

2. When did you start having existential crises/depression, particularly any related to the "meaninglessness" resulting from life's finiteness?



The possibility of a correlation popped into my head and I wanted to check it with some smart people.

Hmm, I've always been aware of people dying, also the loss associated with it for the people closest to the people who had died, and when I have been close to the people involved I've not suffered greatly from bereavement but I sometimes worry that this could be building up to some kind of atomic bomb style event when some of my immediate family perish.

The finitude of life doesnt bother me at all, I dont think that meaning is connected to longevity, particularly when I think that already I'm not as physically quick and as smart etc etc at 37 as I was at 27, and those ten years went past in an absolute flash bang let me tell you, I hope that when I do suffer the bereavement of my parents or sibs that there are other people around who I can relate to in a similar or as strong a fashion, relationships matter and its a big part of where and how and why I find any meaning of any description too.

Is this to do with Satre thinking that the ages of seven to nine was more important in developmental or formative terms than most of psychoanalysis did, thinking as they did for different reasons that the age of one to five was the most significant, because the comprehension and apprehension of death, ie being and nothingness?

Sartre is a hell of a hit and miss thinker if you ask me, some of the better introductions and even the graphic guide, actually are able to point that out without embarrassment, maybe it was who he was but I also think its got more than a little to do with being french and wanting desperately to be public intellectual, an aspect of Sartre which soured me on his writing altogether.

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

So, if you think there's one purpose/meaning for humans/the world/the universe,

I don't though. Guess I didn't make myself clear - I've never really thought of there being any ultimate purpose or reason, just earthly ones; "it matters because we feel it does".

The only thing anyone was "meant" to do is whatever turns out to be their passion in life, for better or worse.

b.3.1) why would YOU choose to spend your life being unhappy about life seeming to have no meaning/not being able to find a meaning for life? As far as I'm concerned, beliefs are awesome because you can start/stop believing in them whenever you want.

Well, no, you actually can't. If that were true, religion would have died out centuries ago and mental illness would by and large not exist.

And the main reason I can think of to answer this is if one believed meaninglessness to be the truth. I recall some conversation on the nihilism reddit I had with someone who considers the existential approach - finding meaning, etc - to be "fictionalism" and "living a lie/fantasy", because no amount of saying "this is true" when the evidence shows it's clearly false will make it true.

c) couldn't it be that having a "meaningful" life means living according to your inner values, or doing things that make you feel a better/happier person?

I usually assumed this was the case anyway.

I don't think there's such a thing as "thinking wrong" (yes, there is, but not about this). When it comes to beliefs and how one experiences life, one is bound to have a personal point of view and a personal way in which outer things affect us. Coming from a 100% thinking, 0% action person, sometimes one has to stop thinking about the hidden motives/meanings and just do stuff.

My method is usually this:

1. What do intelligent people believe about this subject?

2. Assume they're right.

3. Do I agree?

4. 50/50 change I will or won't.

5. Panic when I don't because I'm obviously wrong.

About half the time, the answer is no. I was just poking around some high-IQ forum and it seems the majority of them think in terms of evo-psych and biology (love is just brain chemicals bonding you to another person for child-rearing, that kind of stuff). It's hard to accept ones more emotional or spiritual perceptions of life remembering that they're all "just" brain impulses or chemicals or evolutionary tactics for reproduction you don't consciously want or care about.

Seeing as you'r probably someone who thinks that way, I'll let you explain how such things don't leave you ashamed or disgusted.

 

[Poki]

1. dont know

2. never. live, laugh, love. as long as those exist i have reasons for life

 

[CitizenErased]

I don't though. Guess I didn't make myself clear - I've never really thought of there being any ultimate purpose or reason, just earthly ones; "it matters because we feel it does".

The only thing anyone was "meant" to do is whatever turns out to be their passion in life, for better or worse.

And your problem is that you’re not satisfied with earthly purposes/meanings, so you consider them meaningless? A greater meaning in life (if it existed), would supersede your own, personal, self-imposed purpose? If everything a person is meant to do is whatever makes them happy, then finiteness is an incentive to go towards what makes you happy faster.

Well, no, you actually can't. If that were true, religion would have died out centuries ago and mental illness would by and large not exist.

Yes, you can. Religion keeps existing because people choose to keep their beliefs against all odds. A mental illness is not a belief per se. Imagining a room is on fire is waaaay different than believing the earth is flat. One can’t be changed because it’s not something one chooses to believe in or not.

Nietzsche is against trascendental (invisible, immutable, atemporal truths like God, Plato’s Ideas, etc etc etc) constructs (he argues people made trascendental truths to cope with the chaos), but he’s okay creating false truths/useful lies –as long as we always keep in mind they’re made up and not “real truths”- to criticize the trascendental, for if we didn’t have any temporal truth, we wouldn’t have any place where to stand on. Existentialists are more concerned about the earthly experience than the invisible noumena and its purpose/purposelessness.

If someone thinks meaninglessness is the absolute truth, then it can’t be changed, therefore, why bother/be sad about it?

And the main reason I can think of to answer this is if one believed meaninglessness to be the truth. I recall some conversation on the nihilism reddit I had with someone who considers the existential approach - finding meaning, etc - to be "fictionalism" and "living a lie/fantasy", because no amount of saying "this is true" when the evidence shows it's clearly false will make it true.

I usually assumed this was the case anyway.

And why do you think this is wrong/makes you feel in crisis? Isn’t a “beautiful” meaning for a finite person? “I lived to be happy”.

My method is usually this:

1. What do intelligent people believe about this subject?

2. Assume they're right.

3. Do I agree?

4. 50/50 change I will or won't.

5. Panic when I don't because I'm obviously wrong.

About half the time, the answer is no. I was just poking around some high-IQ forum and it seems the majority of them think in terms of evo-psych and biology (love is just brain chemicals bonding you to another person for child-rearing, that kind of stuff). It's hard to accept ones more emotional or spiritual perceptions of life remembering that they're all "just" brain impulses or chemicals or evolutionary tactics for reproduction you don't consciously want or care about.

Seeing as you'r probably someone who thinks that way, I'll let you explain how such things don't leave you ashamed or disgusted.

You shouldn’t care what others think. Just see as many points of view as posible and choose the one that makes you feel more comfortable with yourself and in life. IQ is proof of nothing. Logical-mathematical intelligence has nothing to do with how we experience life/death/relationships. Knowing how to solve weird-ass equations doesn’t mean anything other than the person knows their maths well. I often consider intelligent the “Street-smart” people. I believe, as I stated before, that purposelessness and finiteness are my path, so somehow learning a lot about maths (unless it’s to make machines that will help people), economy and such is useless. On the other hand, street-smart people have skills to survive and deal with the everyday life. They could have survived among the first homo sapiens, and they can survive now, they’re wise in the things that matter.
I study Art History. As Oscar Wilde said in The Picture of Dorian Gray’s preface, “all art is quite useless”. To the Romantics, Art was the cannel that connected the finite, small human with the atemporal, infinite nature and tamed that despair coming from the disparity of size and time. So no, I don’t think the same way they do. I do have a soul, something magic, unexplicable, that dies with my body, like Egyptians beleived. In fact, I laugh at culture most of the time. IQ is something created by humans to measure something created by humans, because humans believe it’s important to have logical-mathematical skills, just because the Jobs, and the monetary system and everything else humans created, needs of that particular skill. If I lived in the forest and grew my own food and had my own cabin made of wood, I’d need nothing of that and I could live as happily.
Don’t be quick to judge people, I was just debating the idea because I thought it was interesting. My ways may seem a bit cold (if so, I apologize), but it was far from fighting/trying to impose my point of view. I believe all possibilities have something of truth, threfore there’s no absolute truth, therefore I’d be stupid if I tried to impose my preferenced view on others.
Thanks for letting me explain.

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

And your problem is that you’re not satisfied with earthly purposes/meanings, so you consider them meaningless? A greater meaning in life (if it existed), would supersede your own, personal, self-imposed purpose? If everything a person is meant to do is whatever makes them happy, then finiteness is an incentive to go towards what makes you happy faster.

I'm ore than satisfied with them, but smarter people, people more attuned to truth and thought, aren't. They recognize that if it's all projection, nothing is real, an only sthe stupid, unthinking masses would ever entertain the delusions that their lives have meaning or value.

Yes, you can. Religion keeps existing because people choose to keep their beliefs against all odds. A mental illness is not a belief per se. Imagining a room is on fire is waaaay different than believing the earth is flat. One can’t be changed because it’s not something one chooses to believe in or not.

Eh, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Beliefs are the basis of most human behavior and psychology, some so ingrained they basically are the person's reality, however dysfunctional. Best way to insult someone with a mood disorder is to tell them "you're just refusing to change your thoughts, just stop being negative!"

If someone thinks meaninglessness is the absolute truth, then it can’t be changed, therefore, why bother/be sad about it?

And why do you think this is wrong/makes you feel in crisis? Isn’t a “beautiful” meaning for a finite person? “I lived to be happy”.

If it's correct and I can't accept it, it means I'm weak, stupid, and a bad person. If it's true, then I'm a weak, stupid, bad person for acting and feeling differently - I have no right to view anything differently, because it's objectively wrong.

I personally don't see anyting beautiful in it.

 

[anticlimatic]

Went through my existential crisis in my early 20s. Was plagued religiously by dreams of empty apocalyptic wastelands and unfit boats on brutal stormy seas. Finally washed up on the beaches beyond it when I hit 30 and everything is better now. I recommend getting it over with early. Waiting for mid-life to do it and answer the big questions of what you actually want out of life rather than what you think you do leaves you with precious little time to act on it.

 

[Maou]

1. When and how did you first become aware of death, and/or that you would one day die?

2. When did you start having existential crises/depression, particularly any related to the "meaninglessness" resulting from life's finiteness?



The possibility of a correlation popped into my head and I wanted to check it with some smart people.

I can't think back far enough to know when. I was around a lot of death at a young age, probably young enough to be wary of danger when I was 4-7 years of age. But I was more aware of the possibility of death, but never really felt existential about my death, but about my impact on the world.

I am very prone to these types of crisis, but not so much about the finiteness of life. But being incapable personally, to achive a single impact on the world. To have purpose, to be accepted, to be remembered. Thats what bothers me more than dying before my time.

 

[RadicalDoubt]

1. When and how did you first become aware of death, and/or that you would one day die?

Apparently when I was 2 or 3, while playing in the tub I asked my mother if I would die one day and said some creepy shit about the concept. I don't ever remember not being aware of death or the possibility of me (or the people and things around me) dying.

2. When did you start having existential crises/depression, particularly any related to the "meaninglessness" resulting from life's finiteness?

I've had existential crises and have had depression probably since I was 11 or 13-ish, but it has never centered on life's finiteness or the fact that one day I will just cease to exist. As a concept, I find death as a concept fascinating and it's almost comforting that there will be a conclusion to all this (not in a suicidal way either, just in general I find conclusion to be comforting. Life would be more terrifying to me without death). My life has seemed meaningless at points for reasons completely separated from my finiteness.

 

[Mole]

Clinical Depression is lethal in some cases. Serotonin is prescribed to cure Depression, but serotonin can't make us happy. Though Dopamine does make us hoppy. We can increase our Dopamine by regular enjoyable exercise, by nutritious and delicious meals. And doing something for others on a regular basis increases our happiness.

 

[Lark]

Clinical Depression is lethal in some cases. Serotonin is prescribed to cure Depression, but serotonin can't make us happy. Though Dopamine does make us hoppy. We can increase our Dopamine by regular enjoyable exercise, by nutritious and delicious meals. And doing something for others on a regular basis increases our happiness.

Mole do you want to take a punt at the difference between Serotonin and Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors? Points if you can say which can be prescribed and which can not.

 

[Morpeko]

1. When and how did you first become aware of death, and/or that you would one day die?

The first instance I remember is when my aunt and 2 year old cousin got murdered when I was around 5 years old. I accidentally saw the crime scene photos. That was something.

2. When did you start having existential crises/depression, particularly any related to the "meaninglessness" resulting from life's finiteness?

Maybe when I was 7. I was told about an afterlife when I was younger and I wanted to believe in it but couldn't. Death seemed absolutely terrifying.

Bigger crises started when I was around 10 and figured out how meaningless life is. My life, at least. I don't remember exactly what caused it, but I started getting depressed around this time because school was shit. Started becoming suicidal around 12.

 

[Mole]

Mole do you want to take a punt at the difference between Serotonin and Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors? Points if you can say which can be prescribed and which can not.

Of course Lark, you are completely right, it is Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor that is prescribed for Clinical Depression. All I can say in defence is that SSRI does increase the amount of Serotonin in our brains.

And although I have cared for someone suffering from Clinical Depression, thank God I have not suffered from Depression myself. You might say I chase Dopamine with sustained dancing to rock and roll, eating delicious South Coast oysters, and imagining a bright future for my country as part of CANZUK.