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N's: beating around the bush

Mondo

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I can strongly relate to this notion.
I think this is a phenomena that can be connected to the cognitive function: Ne.
I think it is often that people want an answer from something but are afraid to get straight to the point- so we choose to engage in bullshitting instead- hoping that our 'hidden' motives won't be dug up.
It's a somewhat craven thing to do.
 

563 740

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I can strongly relate to this notion.
I think this is a phenomena that can be connected to the cognitive function: Ne.
I think it is often that people want an answer from something but are afraid to get straight to the point- so we choose to engage in bullshitting instead- hoping that our 'hidden' motives won't be dug up.
It's a somewhat craven thing to do.

I think it goes both ways. I will admit to sometimes avoiding the direct question if I'm trying not to look stupid or whatevs. :blush: But like was hit somewhere else in this thread, I'll also avoid the direct question if I'm looking for more than just the direct answer (beating around the bush to learn more about it).
 

ptgatsby

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I believe, we are simply doing what we want to do. I know this may do nothing about the dislike of a particular activity. But keep in mind what it would be like if someone turned off your favorite show--there ought to be a good reason.

That is more or less the point, I agree. When we split groups up on preferences - and this doesn't require MBTI at all - we are going to get groups that have different preferences... obvious, right? :) It shouldn't be surprising that we each have our own 'show' that we prefer.

You could do the exact same thing with sport preferences and repeat the discussion. It goes a bit deeper when it is personality, but same concept.

Illusions exist. Experience is limited. Data is often doctored, mismeasured, or misrepresented. Objectivity is nothing more than the repeatability of subjective experience. Please let me know which of those statements you disagree with.

I agree with all, but it doesn't change my preference.

For each point that can be brought up in the subjective world, it is always the progression towards objective that I (we) strive for. Illusion and bad data is the enemy, meant to be overcome, not an excuse to avoid using a particular method.

If anything, the intuitive approach is less rigid with illusion and bad data - granted, Ss can take it at face value, but theorists can be heavily misled into believing their own theories when supported by even the weakest (anecdotal, etc) data or the flimsiest of illusions (human biases come to mind here for some reason).

The downside to the more rigid thinkers is that they can become rigid with bad data and illusions and not let go of them, whereas the theorists tend to... retheorize. On the balance, the openness part is probably more important right now, due to the acceleration of technology.

3) Perhaps it is my technical background, but I found myself sharing many of the sentiments of Grayscale and pt on this matter. One of my favorite phrases at work is "if it isn't tested, it doesn't work" (an exageration, but not far from the truth).

The only difference here would be that I say "if I can't use it, it doesn't work". A very subjective thing - I have no comment on anything that I do not use/know about. That's why I say I don't have patience for just theory. I need to use it to care.

edit - but the particular point made in the quote I put in the OP, or the point it brought up in my mind was that here, the N isn't even being trusted to know how to handle THEIR OWN LIFE, to know or be able to judge what information they need, what's relevant to a situation... ?!

The most competent people I know are all Ns, and most of them are very balanced.

However, it does bother me when something happens to them and automatically cope by saying "what do you think about..." in a general way. Don't do that! Just tell me what happened so I can understand *you*. I don't want to talk about something for 15 minutes only to realise that it had happened to you!

It'll help you too. A solution made *for* you will be better than understanding the big picture, of which you could be an exception (one of many!).

I would guess the majority of the irritation I feel comes from this scenario. I can talk theory, big picture, but I'd really talk about the matter at hand. If that needs to be theory, I'll manage... but when it doesn't and it feels forced? Grrr...

But if you do that enough, I do think I might think that you don't deal with your own issues at a practical level. Maybe not fair, I agree, but the tendency would be there. Course, I think this about a lot of people and I don't seem to have a S/N divide. More like a Ti divide. And I'm looking at you too, TJs.
 

substitute

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heh, well sometimes asking about it in a general way before telling you it happened to me personally is my way of scouting whether you'll be judgemental or receptive to what I'm saying before saying it... I'll admit that.

edit - I mean, say for example I'm looking for advice on how to deal with an issue with somebody, and I already know what the problem is beyond reasonable doubt, I just want to sound out various possible solutions. If I tell you it happened to me, you're gonna want to dissect the whole thing and probably reapportion blame according to your limited understanding of the situation, when all I wanted was a 'what would you do if this were the case?' meaning I know this is the case, that's not something I want to discuss. Therefore giving you the details of how I know it to be the case is pretty pointless...
 

ptgatsby

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heh, well sometimes asking about it in a general way before telling you it happened to me personally is my way of scouting whether you'll be judgemental or receptive to what I'm saying before saying it... I'll admit that.

Grrrr.... :cheese:

That's always what it feels like. Plus, it often makes me stick my foot in my mouth without even knowing!
 

substitute

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yeah but I mean, c'mon, if for example you were gonna come out as gay, you'd want to get some idea of a person's general opinions on the subject of homosexuality before confiding in them that you're suffering from prejudice and asking their advice in dealing with it...?
 

substitute

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actually, come to think of it, it seems a staple N experience to be told you come out with things you shouldn't, that you're too controversial, talk crazy shit etc... so it's hardly surprising that we'd want to do a bit of scouting for receptivity before putting ourselves on the line to be smacked down as usual... maybe it just becomes a habit sometimes...

Mondo - I usually don't even know what my own motives are and it's in discussing things that I hope to find them crystallize somewhat...
 

ptgatsby

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yeah but I mean, c'mon, if for example you were gonna come out as gay, you'd want to get some idea of a person's general opinions on the subject of homosexuality before confiding in them that you're suffering from prejudice and asking their advice in dealing with it...?

Personally, I would simply take that as a lack of trust. I'd like to think my friends would accept my opinion as mine - what, are they not going to tell me if they find out it could rock the relationship?

(The following post could be true... I don't see many Ns being told not to be controversial - I do hear them being told to focus on the matter at hand.)
 

Little Linguist

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Captain Chick, I disagree that this thing is only an INTP/ENTP thing. I, too, have this problem, and I'm an ENFP.

Maybe I'm just weird??? :D Oh, wait, silly me, of course I am!!! :doh:

By the way, Jeffy - to address your point: It's funny. I think all the people who felt that way always came to me and said. "Dude, he wanted 10 pages, I wrote only four. How many pages did you write?" And I was like, "Uh, 20." And they said, "TWENTY?!?!?! WTF?!?!?! How the hell did you write TWENTY pages?!?!?!" I was like, "uhhhh, wellllll...." :blush:
 

substitute

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yeah... when I get told to stick to the subject at hand it often hurts actually cos I thought I WAS!!! what I said was, in my mind, deeply connected and relevant to the subject at hand. Of course I can understand if I've made a big leap that it might not be immediately apparent as to HOW, but I'd like it if people would at least hear me out a bit more whilst I talk my way through to connecting it to the dot they're currently on... it's not easy for me to do that, so it's annoying when I'm trying my best to do it and I just get told I'm rambling... ha, can't win...

as to trust... it's more fear really, and maybe yeah, fear can denote a lack of trust but when experience in the past is bad it's pretty hard to overcome the fear, no matter how you might intellectually know it to be irrational... and then there's the other side of the coin, where people say you shouldn't ASSUME you know what people think... so which is it? Am I presumptuous to assume I know where they'd stand without asking them? Or am I being rightly trustful? Gah, well, half of that is P uncertainty and self-doubt... low self-esteem too in a way, like "I'm lucky this person tolerates me as it is, because they must be a really good person... it's too much to ask that they see past this freakery of mine as well..."
 

Little Linguist

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yeah... when I get told to stick to the subject at hand it often hurts actually cos I thought I WAS!!! what I said was, in my mind, deeply connected and relevant to the subject at hand. Of course I can understand if I've made a big leap that it might not be immediately apparent as to HOW, but I'd like it if people would at least hear me out a bit more whilst I talk my way through to connecting it to the dot they're currently on... it's not easy for me to do that, so it's annoying when I'm trying my best to do it and I just get told I'm rambling... ha, can't win...

YEAH!!!!!!!!! Doesn't it freaking piss you off when someone says, "Stick to the point," and you're like, "DUDE, I AM sticking to the point." And they say, "WTF?!?! You're totally not!!!" And you're like, "WTF is YOUR problem that YOU can't see what is right in front of your face?!!??!" And they're like, "WELL SHIT FIRE!!!!!! You could have made your point in two sentences. So why the hell do you have to blither on for five minutes, giving me this detail and that analysis, and the other background when no one gives a shit?!?!?! I've lost interest in the first minute." And I say, "Well SHIT FIRE, if you understood what the hell I am trying to tell you and would LISTEN for a freaking change, then MAYBE you would *get it*! DUMBASS!!!!!!"

Yeah. Uh. Right.

My point is: I agree.
 

ptgatsby

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yeah... when I get told to stick to the subject at hand it often hurts actually cos I thought I WAS!!! what I said was, in my mind, deeply connected and relevant to the subject at hand. Of course I can understand if I've made a big leap that it might not be immediately apparent as to HOW, but I'd like it if people would at least hear me out a bit more whilst I talk my way through to connecting it to the dot they're currently on... it's not easy for me to do that, so it's annoying when I'm trying my best to do it and I just get told I'm rambling... ha, can't win...

as to trust... it's more fear really, and maybe yeah, fear can denote a lack of trust but when experience in the past is bad it's pretty hard to overcome the fear, no matter how you might intellectually know it to be irrational...

Well, as to the first - that's the preference gap. Small leaps are comfortable to Ss, and you take large ones. I imagine that you take very large ones, as a product of intelligence and nature.

The 2nd - I understand, but that doesn't really change the situation. I can understand why they didn't, and they can understand why I think they should of, but it doesn't change that they don't and I don't like it :D

Sometimes it is more about preference, sometimes more about trust... and sometimes both equally. Meaning, it can be complex - interactions with people normally are :D
 
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This thread is full of Ns using way too many words to say how much they hate people who use too many words.
 

Little Linguist

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This thread is full of Ns using way too many words to say how much they hate people who use too many words.

Well, I personally love saying too many words to say why I love using too many words. In my defense: I'm consistent.
 

ptgatsby

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This thread is full of Ns using way too many words to say how much they hate people who use too many words.

It isn't the volume, it's the scope. Anyone talking shop can talk and talk. It is about what we believe 'shop' to be. N shop talk sounds like a lot of talk about nothing to Ss. And S shop talk sounds like a lot of talk about nothing to Ns.
 

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...and anyway I thought it was more about S's complaining that N's use too many words whilst N's explain why they do! lol

PT yeah I can understand the frustration that occurs when 'the gap' is encountered. Frustration's cool with me but when people actually get ANGRY, it sorta irritates me a bit because it's like they're judging me. Like they're not realizing that if people don't trust then it's not usually because they don't want to but that some kind of fear is holding them back from doing so, and to overcome that fear, support is needed... to get angry with me and judge me only adds to the fear really...

Not that you've done that at all, just saying, y'know... hahah... GENERALLY :rofl1:
 

ptgatsby

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...and anyway I thought it was more about S's complaining that N's use too many words whilst N's explain why they do! lol

Well, some people think I'm still an N, so you know... plays at many levels ;)

Not that you've done that at all, just saying, y'know... hahah... GENERALLY :rofl1:

:) Generally I get along with S and Ns, if we have common interests, too. But there are times when it also feels like they are just probbing me. Happened recently with an ENFP that didn't want to say that she dislikes IQ tests - given that I don't really care about IQ, but was talking about the influences on the (her) medical field and various levels of education, she took it to mean that I was a big believer in IQ. Instead of stating her POV, she just kept asking questions, as if to hope that I would mention a weakness. Which of course, I eventually did, and she pounced on, and I suddenly realised the intent.

I didn't get angry, but it is irritating. I could of spent the same time talking about the Flynn effect or something similar to get her perspective.

It is the lack of communication that is irritating.

The whole anger thing is just a reaction to the differences, IMO. Both sides need to be understanding and try... but keep in mind, if you start talking to someone, they tend to feel an obligation to respond. It is as frustrating for them as it would be for you being 'right' over and over, yet not listened to.
 

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563 740

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You and your Ti-driven tirelessly tidy, meticulous attempts to tinker out the tiniest of details into tenuous tissues of "coherent", titanic meaning can render the rest of us in somewhat of a tizzy!

Alliteration is overrated.

:D
 

Alpha Prime

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N's beating around the bush.

Anyone care to input?

I like this board, but sometimes Ns can be very annoying about getting to the point too. They ask really vague questions when they want to know about solutions to very specific problems. For example, an opening post might ask about why ESFPs are flighty, but a few posts later the real question would turn out to be "How do I get this ESFP to pay attention to me?". (An exaggeration, but common phenomenon.)

In corollary to this, I think S's are not that good at taking hints.

N-widescreen in all honor, but, I have a hard time respecting a person who is too wishy washy or chooses to beat around the bush due to lack of courage.
 
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