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"Sly Digs"

Tilt

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[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION]: it's my way of cutting through people's BS/ego issues without creating a major scene. Sometimes, I just get so tired of someone's BS, I will say something to steer than to think of something in a different light in the form of a subtle criticism. I am 3w4,5w6,9w8 so I say most things in a muted, unemotive way.

Maybe "gaslighting" is more relevant to what you are talking about?
 

Pionart

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[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION]: it's my way of cutting through people's BS/ego issues without creating a major scene. Sometimes, I just get so tired of someone's BS, I will say something to steer than to think of something in a different light in the form of a subtle criticism. I am 3w4,5w6,9w8 so I say most things in a muted, unemotive way.

Maybe "gaslighting" is more relevant to what you are talking about?

Yeah, you're right.

Like, say a person witnessed a crime involving multiple people. To prevent testimony, the worldview of the witness is called into question through subtle fabrication of evidence. Outsiders are implicated, insiders are duplicated.

 

ceecee

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- have you experienced this, either to yourself or someone else? what are your thoughts on it? Of course. Everyone has.

- why do you think people do this? is my characterisation of it as "psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows" fairly accurate? Because that's all they have to fight with. They are cowards and they aren't interested in learning any other way. Psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows? No, I don't see it that way, that's a little much. I see "gaslighting" has been mentioned. That's entirely different. That would qualify more as psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows.

- how do you deal with this sort of behaviour? whether it be learning to identify it when it occurs, letting it not effect you etc? Call them out on their passive shit 100% of the time. They always back down, without exception.

- have YOU ever done this sort of thing, and why? be brave... No I doubt it. Throwing shade, yes. That's not the same thing and it's not passive. It's shit talk and I would never profess to be above that. The people who do profess to be above it, those are the people that use sly digs/passive-aggressive methods because they are pussies and won't say it directly, to someones' face.
 

Thalassa

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Yeah passive aggressive people are annoying. I would honestly rather just openly be an asshole to people, I honestly think it's far more hurtful to be fake, frenemies, backstab, and so forth. I get in trouble a lot for being honest, but I can't stand the games people play on forums, for example, because the worst bullies and trolls never get more than a warning, because they're so proficient at "sly digs." In severe cases, it's called "gaslighting" ...that is, provoking people then telling them they're crazy/stupid/inappropriate for getting upset about it, because gosh they didn't do anything...YES I have also experienced it irl, frequently from the type of women who see all other women as competition, "sly digs" are a hallmark of internalized misogyny, like if you are talking about the standard American diet, and another woman looks you up and down, implying that you're not skinny enough to have an opinion.

I think it's hilarious in British comedy, but usually there's more of an art to that, and it's more like verbal sparring than bullying.
 

Thalassa

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Well, if the vibe was condescension, I would guess that they were in fact being condescending, although they were probably not quite aware of that (depending on who they are, of course).

Sometimes people respond to the things I say as if I were myself being condescending or mockful, and I am generally shocked that I was coming across in such a manner. I will admit that I am probably very arrogant, but I do try to treat others as equals.

I am also very often misunderstood as being condescending when I am almost certain that I am not. For example, I might laugh at something someone says or does because I thought it was great, but sometimes people think I was laughing for different reasons, and I'll be attacked for it. Like, seriously, even just thinking about that makes me want to cry.

I understand that I do see things in a different way to most people. I'm not saying that most people see things the same way, but that people tend to not really "get" me, for whatever reason.

You know, I can't pretend to know your specific situation, and I'm glad I'm aware of this now so I won't be harsh with you on the forum, but for what it's worth - it really helps to understand that things people do are more about them than you. Of course this knowledge tends to make me want to punch certain people, knowing damn well its THEIR issue. ..but in close relationships I've actually gotten a lot better at knowing that a certain person has xyz characteristics, or neurosis, to expect that pattern from them, and so not respond accordingly, if that makes any sense.

I mean if someone attacks you for laughing, that's a cue to be compassionate to their own self consciousness or sensitivity...it does not mean they are being mean or that you are a bad person either.
 

Pionart

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You know, I can't pretend to know your specific situation, and I'm glad I'm aware of this now so I won't be harsh with you on the forum, but for what it's worth - it really helps to understand that things people do are more about them than you. Of course this knowledge tends to make me want to punch certain people, knowing damn well its THEIR issue. ..but in close relationships I've actually gotten a lot better at knowing that a certain person has xyz characteristics, or neurosis, to expect that pattern from them, and so not respond accordingly, if that makes any sense.

I mean if someone attacks you for laughing, that's a cue to be compassionate to their own self consciousness or sensitivity...it does not mean they are being mean or that you are a bad person either.

Feel free to be harsh with him*, I don't mind it if it's direct, so at least I know what I'm being accused of.

I get that I'm typically overly focused on myself with how I see things, I'd call it self-consciousness, perhaps ego-centricism. I guess a major problem I am facing is in how to get out of my own little world, and into the world of people, and it just feels to me at the moment like there is all this cruelty and mind-games being done. So, I withdraw to protect myself, and as you mentioned with the need to be compassionate... it's not that I'm not compassionate, at least in intent, it's more that I don't know how to show it to people, so it makes things difficult.

I realised today, that a lot of this is based on misunderstandings - I'm misunderstanding others, and they're misunderstanding me. So, for one half of the equation, I think I should stop even caring if people understand me or not. In fact, if I can achieve this I can honestly see myself thoroughly enjoying being so misunderstood by people. I think to accompany this, I would need protective measures in place so that I don't say the wrong thing to the wrong person and end up paying dearly for it. This bit sounds a lot trickier.

* I wrote "him" instead of "me" without even realizing it... make of that what you will.
 

Thalassa

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Feel free to be harsh with him*, I don't mind it if it's direct, so at least I know what I'm being accused of.

I get that I'm typically overly focused on myself with how I see things, I'd call it self-consciousness, perhaps ego-centricism. I guess a major problem I am facing is in how to get out of my own little world, and into the world of people, and it just feels to me at the moment like there is all this cruelty and mind-games being done. So, I withdraw to protect myself, and as you mentioned with the need to be compassionate... it's not that I'm not compassionate, at least in intent, it's more that I don't know how to show it to people, so it makes things difficult.

I realised today, that a lot of this is based on misunderstandings - I'm misunderstanding others, and they're misunderstanding me. So, for one half of the equation, I think I should stop even caring if people understand me or not. In fact, if I can achieve this I can honestly see myself thoroughly enjoying being so misunderstood by people. I think to accompany this, I would need protective measures in place so that I don't say the wrong thing to the wrong person and end up paying dearly for it. This bit sounds a lot trickier.

* I wrote "him" instead of "me" without even realizing it... make of that what you will.

People who are actually egocentric, or narcissistic, are unapologetically certain of their own superiority. Psychologists have recently found that true narcissists actually think extremely highly of themselves. These people are toxic, even dangerous.

But your self centeredness stems from pain, or lack, which is not egocentric - it's more like, expecting a person who is physically ill to be able to lift heavy things. You feel you cannot give this energy to others because you are so consumed by your own pain.

So I'm not shaming you, by suggesting compassion in that scenario. I'm more or less explaining that what feels like a an attack wouldn't be a real attack, if someone thinks you're laughing at them when you're not, it's a misunderstanding, and hating yourself or them wouldn't be helpful.

You already seem to know that - but I don't think desensitization of your self is the answer. It's more like if you heal yourself more inside, it will then naturally become easier to not be as hurt by other people's choices.
 

Pionart

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- have you experienced this, either to yourself or someone else? what are your thoughts on it? Of course. Everyone has.

- why do you think people do this? is my characterisation of it as "psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows" fairly accurate? Because that's all they have to fight with. They are cowards and they aren't interested in learning any other way. Psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows? No, I don't see it that way, that's a little much. I see "gaslighting" has been mentioned. That's entirely different. That would qualify more as psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows.

- how do you deal with this sort of behaviour? whether it be learning to identify it when it occurs, letting it not effect you etc? Call them out on their passive shit 100% of the time. They always back down, without exception.

- have YOU ever done this sort of thing, and why? be brave... No I doubt it. Throwing shade, yes. That's not the same thing and it's not passive. It's shit talk and I would never profess to be above that. The people who do profess to be above it, those are the people that use sly digs/passive-aggressive methods because they are pussies and won't say it directly, to someones' face.

The thing is though, in my case the sly digs and gaslighting kind of go together. I don't know how to separate it, because it does make me doubt my own sanity when it's done.

As for this "throwing shade" term that is being thrown around... I guess throwing shade is talking trash about a particular person, but I'm not singling anyone out because by default I don't really know who to single out (do forgive me if this still counts anyway, I don't want to get hung up on semantics). Not that I haven't thrown shade before at individuals when I've been backed into a corner, so to speak. This is aimed at, I guess primarily anyone who does this to me (it's the reversal of what I'm explaining, because I don't know who I'm referring to, but the people I'm referring to, or the ones who read this forum at least, do know), but also anyone who does it to anyone unless it is done in a considerate way, as some people have mentioned here.

See, I've been developing something like Stockholm Syndrome, where I believe that the people doing the gaslighting etc. are actually on my side, and want what is best for me even if I myself don't understand it. I can't bring myself to really commit to this outlook though.
 

Pionart

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People who are actually egocentric, or narcissistic, are unapologetically certain of their own superiority. Psychologists have recently found that true narcissists actually think extremely highly of themselves. These people are toxic, even dangerous.

But your self centeredness stems from pain, or lack, which is not egocentric - it's more like, expecting a person who is physically ill to be able to lift heavy things. You feel you cannot give this energy to others because you are so consumed by your own pain.

So I'm not shaming you, by suggesting compassion in that scenario. I'm more or less explaining that what feels like a an attack wouldn't be a real attack, if someone thinks you're laughing at them when you're not, it's a misunderstanding, and hating yourself or them wouldn't be helpful.

You already seem to know that - but I don't think desensitization of your self is the answer. It's more like if you heal yourself more inside, it will then naturally become easier to not be as hurt by other people's choices.

Thank you.

Regarding the laughter bit... I don't see that as an attack in the same way that I am seeing the main stuff I'm referring to in this thread as being an attack. Like, it's just their reaction, it's not manipulation or whatever I'm mainly referring to. It's painful though, and makes it even more difficult to engage with others.

For egocentricism... yeah, I'm definitely not a narcissist. Not that test results necessarily mean much, but in a "what personality disorder do you have?" test, I scored lowest in narcissism/NPD and highest in avoidance/AvPD.

Do you have any suggestions on how I could work on healing myself?

I know there's the option of mental health professionals... I am willing to try this again, but my previous bad experiences with the mental health system have made me highly reluctant to seek out this kind of help.

In the mean time, I am trying to engage in spiritual practice. There is a lot of darkness surrounding my spirituality however. I don't know whether I'm more of a Christian or a Satanist most of the time (I don't think I'm either of those, I tend to feel more comfortable with certain aspects of things like Buddhism and New-Age/Magickal sort of stuff, but it's hard for me to pin-point exactly what I believe, I somewhat just try to go by what feels right to me at the time and go from there).
 

Bush

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A passive-aggressive sly dig leaves open the possibility of wiping evidence clean, denying that you'd intended to send that message at all. If you display passive aggressive behavior toward someone, and if you are proud that your dig was lost on them, then you're obviously after the self-satisfaction of having done something rather than after actually conveying an insult to them.

But a message could very well be sent covertly as a sly dig and have its intention purposefully made loud and clear.

When the message is actually heard as intended -- that is, when the target's not oblivious to it -- it can be downright nasty. It tacks "and I'm going to make God damned sure you know it" to the end of the message. It stabs through the barrier between parsing words and interpreting them. It short circuits the whole shebang. It bypasses the eardrum. (Like, figuratively.) And in case you need a visual,


In a huge way, it's more direct than words alone. It's outright visceral. Taking a sharp, thin blade through a bunch of muscle tissue, between the ribs, and right into the heart is pretty direct, no?
 

slylingual

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If someone I'm on positive to neutral terms with digs at me: "Am I behaving in a away that is consistently annoying/offending/hurting someone without realizing it?"

but if it's someone you're on positive to neutral terms with then should they not have the decency to confront you about it in private rather than in front of your friends? if the intent is to get a message across to a certain individual then there's no need for it to happen in front of an audience, unless an audience is precisely what the digger wants. it puts the diggee on the spot and causes them psychological/emotional pain which results in them either feeling self-conscious or reacting, and if the digger is smart enough to deliver their critiques in a subdued manner then surely they're smart enough to know how it would impact the diggee, no?

i had a girl do this to me for months but all it ever did was irk me. it wasn't until she grew a pair and confronted me about these issues directly that i actually altered my behavior for the better. the most daunting part about the whole ordeal wasn't the passive-aggression but that after we became "friends" she adopted the same mannerisms and quirks she previously condemned in me.

edit: i agree with the rest of your post btw. it's just that although i can easily pick up on these subtle hints i often question the intentions behind them and if they're negative then there's no way in hell i'm changing anything. i mean, if the mods just went around being passive-aggressive all the time instead of giving people warnings and infractions for behavior they perceive as faulty or damaging then no one would ever straighten up. i'm sure most have been victims of name-calling too so that's not a good way to approach these situations either... it's about clear, honest, and (if need be) constructive communication and it should come from someone whose opinion the recipient holds in high esteem.
 
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I had a Christian man recently do this to me. It really violated the spirit of Christ that is supposed to be reflected in his everyday character. If he read this, he would likely think this is a "sly dig" on my part against him.
 

Santosha

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- have you experienced this, either to yourself or someone else? what are your thoughts on it?

I've dealt with it extensively, in social-settings. It almost seems like the 'go-to' for many people, that struggle to acknowledge anger (which they/we have been taught is socially unacceptable) and/or to find healthier ways of getting needs met. I assume you are referring to Passive-Aggressive behavior. If not, could you clarify the difference? I fell back on PA behavior quite a bit when I was younger (probably still do at times, but am much more aware of what I'm doing now, and why, the futility) but, not so much in terms of verbally attacking others in a way that couldn't be obviously traced back. I was more PA in work-settings, in terms of not doing something that was asked of me, 'forgetting' or running-late, because I was angry at some approach upper-management was taking. I've definitely been on the receiving end of 'sly digs' many times, one of them just this weekend, from a co-worker. It used to really ruffle me up too, e6 disintegration and all, this need for acceptance.. looking outside myself for it, a battle of perceptual validation. And probably one of the only reasons I didn't resort to sly digs (because god knows there were many other dysfunctional ways I attempted to get my needs met) was because it just wasn't a strategy utilized by my family while I grew up. We had others, to be sure.

- why do you think people do this? is my characterisation of it as "psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows" fairly accurate?


Well, it's like I mentioned. I think a lot of it goes back to unacknowledged anger, insecurity, not knowing how one really feels or how to more healthily assert the self and get needs met. It might also feel very empowering, to be able to pull another's strings and watch that emotional-reactivity (from a safe distance), especially when one senses their own emotions are too scary or uncomfortable, they must be locked down. I mean, doesn't that kind of make sense? If you couldn't easily express or acknowledge how you feel, wouldn't there be a part of you that (maybe even subconsciously) teased that out in others? Out of a morbid curiosity or, even a desire to reinforce/validate your own need to keep them locked, or believe these PA behaviors are a necessary coping mechanism? I dunno, it's late... but I think there is something to it.

Hmmm, abuse.
There are so many different ways I could approach this, I'm having a hard time deciding on which would be the most relevant or helpful. I'll say this - I believe that we hold most, if not all the power in how much another can psychologically harm us. To the degree that we allow our sense-of-self to be defined by others or the external. I'm not saying that the most 'functional' approach is to totally pull-in (and I really do see it as functional, rather than good/bad or right/wrong or true/untrue) A good balance has to be met, because like it or not, we are here in the world, living this reality. But I think it's important to develop the discernment of who's story you are buying. And it IS a story. Does it serve me? That's where I'd point my consciousness.. not on 'is it abusive'. Also, you can totally reject the story that someone is trying to tell about you, and yet still be deeply wounded that they want to tell it at all.


- how do you deal with this sort of behaviour? whether it be learning to identify it when it occurs, letting it not effect you etc?

I've learned to identify it.. but I don't 'seek it out' if that makes any sense. So again, it's kind of a matter of where you are focused. If your focusing on 'don't let that upset me!' then the odds are, it's already upset you. Now you might even become distressed because you've allowed something to upset you, believing that this is some indication of a deficiency, which pinches-off the level of self-acceptance often required for us to be receptive to the beauty we do hold. Or you might be ruminating on the 'why's', the motivation.. 'is it true?' Blah blah blah. So now we not only endure the pangs of the real event, but it's stealing our 'now-time' when we could be thinking about anything... literally anything, more happy/peaceful/loving/exciting/comforting. Not that there is no insight to be gained, but I would argue that many of the so-called 'insights' one gains, about the motivations of another, or the 'truth' of whatever.. while in an already depleted/disconnected state, might not be all that accurate or helpful...

I honestly try to move a long as quickly as I can when I encounter it. I know the vibrational state someone is in when they resort to tactics like 'sly digs' and I usually don't want to waste my time analyzing their life-story or every psychological flip they've taken to arrive there. I have compassion, because I know they are struggling and many are doing the best with what they know how to do, as they kind of fumble and flail about in an effort to 'feel good' even temporarily, by dragging others down - the inability to see the greatness and potential in any one of us the very measurement of ones lack-of-awareness, but I'm not brining them into my experience any further than I have to. They'll get it, on a long enough time-line. And in the meantime, there are some really amazing things in this life to occupy us.
 
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