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Anti Empathy Movement

SearchingforPeace

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I saw this piece in the New York Times earlier, http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/22/science/empathy-presidential-election-2016.html

...

The voters’ indifference could reflect another problem with

The most prominent critic is Paul Bloom, a professor of psychology at Yale, who gave a talk at this year’s meeting of the Society for Personality and Social Psychology titled “Does Empathy Make Us Immoral?"

...

But whom do you end up helping? Often the wrong people, Dr. Bloom says, because empathy is biased and parochial. It favors vulnerable children and animals, and discriminates against unattractive people. You’re more likely to sympathize with someone in your social group rather than an outsider, especially one who looks different.

....

Moreover, empathy can be manipulated to inspire aggression. In one experiment, when people were induced to empathize with the personal problems of one player in a game, they became more willing to punish the player’s opponent, even though the opponent had nothing to do with those personal problems.

In his current research, Dr. Bloom and a colleague are finding that the more empathic people feel toward victims of terrorism in the Middle East, the more they favor taking military action. “If I want to do terrible things to a group, one tried-and-true way is to arouse empathy for victims of that group,” Dr. Bloom said in an interview. “Often the argument for war is rooted in empathy for victims of the enemy.”

Dr. Bloom concludes that empathy is overratedblessas a guide for personal morality or public leadership. “Sob stories are not a good way to make public policy,” he said. “The best leaders have a certain enlightened aloofness.”

....

Other researchers, though, argue that empathy isn’t as irrational as it seems. They see it as not just a knee-jerk reflex but as something we can control.

....

Also the Atlantic has a short video on the topic with Dr. Bloom, Against Empathy: Yale Professor Paul Bloom's Argument - The Atlantic - The Atlantic

Thoughts ??????
 

Forever

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Many people who have empathy often lack compassion.

I strongly disagree.

or I would have agreed if you had said this:

Many people who have the potential for empathy often lack compassion.

Being in a state of empathy towards someone would have compassion on others.
 

Pionart

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extroverts are empathetic, they can feel what another feels

feelers are compassionate, they care about feelings

so ETs can prey on IFs, the ET manipulates the IF by knowing their feelings and not caring, the IF does so because they care about the ET's feelings but can't know what the ET is feeling, so they give their trust
 

Forever

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Lol "Dr. Bloom" instantly made me think of:

Alana-Bloom-alana-bloom-34693646-500-281.png


so my reaction to this thread is:

tumblr_n1qxvdWpcO1qjmwu8o5_250.gif

tumblr_n62fxqofmq1qjmwu8o1_250.gif

tumblr_moq7dpBiFh1qf8q36o3_500.gif
 
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I strongly disagree.

or I would have agreed if you had said this:

Many people who have the potential for empathy often lack compassion.

Being in a state of empathy towards someone would have compassion on others.

Often empathy and compassion are bounded by the 'circle' we circumscribe ourselves within.
 

Frosty

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I thought that stereotypically

Fe was sympathetic

and

Fi was empathetic

ONe reflecting back directly their perception of someones external state and the other gathering from with in trying to compose some form of internal relation to the sufferers problem. Or something. Not well written out. But that one will feel sorry for you, while the other will feel bad for you. (have those more differentiated in my head than here)

Back later. maybe.
 

Coriolis

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I strongly disagree.

or I would have agreed if you had said this:

Many people who have the potential for empathy often lack compassion.

Being in a state of empathy towards someone would have compassion on others.
I would say I have much more compassion than empathy. I don't need to feel or have experienced similar distress as someone else to recognize that they are in trouble and could use some help.
 

Pionart

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I thought that stereotypically

Fe was sympathetic

and

Fi was empathetic

ONe reflecting back directly their perception of someones external state and the other gathering from with in trying to compose some form of internal relation to the sufferers problem. Or something. Not well written out. But that one will feel sorry for you, while the other will feel bad for you. (have those more differentiated in my head than here)

Back later. maybe.

Fe: your feelings are my feelings
Fi: my feelings are your feelings

So Fe is unaware of their own feelings so it is played out in other feelings where the Fe tries to change the feelings of the other feelings of the other person.

Fi is aware of their feelings, and when another person feels something they think they feel it too so then they feel the other person feelings and its theirs.

Thats how u can know for sure.
 

/DG/

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I thought that stereotypically

Fe was sympathetic

and

Fi was empathetic

ONe reflecting back directly their perception of someones external state and the other gathering from with in trying to compose some form of internal relation to the sufferers problem. Or something. Not well written out. But that one will feel sorry for you, while the other will feel bad for you. (have those more differentiated in my head than here)

Back later. maybe.

The thing is I feel like people that are very empathetic also tend to be very sympathetic and vice versa. People make that sort of a distinction between Fe and Fi, but I really don't know that it is that useful.
 

Forever

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If help is right in front of me I'll do my duty as a human being to help one another. Sometimes I am moved by empathy in a way I feel that person is suffering and when I help them I feel good in a way they're no longer in pain so it is a matter of relief for them. It's difficult to say it's my feelings are being benefited it's theirs. Some can say no you're only helping them out of egotism. It's two different sides of the same coin. You're still helping them for their sake.

I'm afraid the person who is talking about this like putting a coin in a coin basket is not empathizing. It's a matter of sympathy here you go. I do not feel the baskets pain. Idc if you're a Yale professor or whatever but you're talking about an issue that is completely different than what the title is implying.
 

Forever

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I thought that stereotypically

Fe was sympathetic

and

Fi was empathetic

ONe reflecting back directly their perception of someones external state and the other gathering from with in trying to compose some form of internal relation to the sufferers problem. Or something. Not well written out. But that one will feel sorry for you, while the other will feel bad for you. (have those more differentiated in my head than here)

Back later. maybe.

If we're talking stereotypically it's actually reversed. E is focus on the other. I is focus from the self. It is actually much more complex.
[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] mi casa, su casa. :wink:
 

Tennessee Jed

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I hope [MENTION=22236]YUI[/MENTION] doesn't mind, but...^ this

No problem. Thanks for the mention!

- - - Updated - - -

I thought that stereotypically

Fe was sympathetic

and

Fi was empathetic

ONe reflecting back directly their perception of someones external state and the other gathering from with in trying to compose some form of internal relation to the sufferers problem. Or something. Not well written out. But that one will feel sorry for you, while the other will feel bad for you. (have those more differentiated in my head than here)

Back later. maybe.

Sympathy is when you have compassion but don't necessarily share the feeling. With empathy, on the other hand, you share the feeling.

If a woman talks about the problems of childbirth, as a man I sympathize with her plight. I understand that she was in distress and pain, and I feel bad for her. But I haven't experienced it myself, so I can't really empathize to the point of feeling what she felt.

OTOH, when someone talks of losing a job, I empathize. I've been there, and I can remember exactly how that felt. In a discussion about the subject, I can relate my own experiences and help analyze the nature of the experience with the other person.

Link: Empathy vs. sympathy - Grammarist

Anyway, that has little or nothing to do with Fe vs. Fi. Anyone can do both sympathy and empathy, depending on their depth of feeling and shared experience for what someone else is going through.

Fe vs Fi is more about the following:

Fe reacts to emotional events or data in a direct, in-the-moment, from-the-gut manner. Since it's an extroverted function, it functions out in the world and is more immediate.

By comparison, Fi is an introverted fucntion and is more about analyzing emotional data. It brings the data down into a private laboratory, dissects them, creates systems (philosophies, ethics and value systems) on how to handle them, and then uses an extroverted function (Ne, Se, etc.) to apply those systems in the world. Since Fi pulls emotional data down into a private space, the result tends to be more "me-oriented": How do *I* relate to these things.

Anyway, none of that has anything to do with sympathy or empathy. One might say that Fe is more empathetic since it's more from-the-gut. Or one might argue that Fi is more empathetic, because it's more about how *I* relate to things. But really, it's a "red herring" debate. There's no real correlation. Fi and Fe are more about *how* people process emotional data, and not necessarily about the resulting feelings or responses (which can differ greatly, or be very similar).

*****************

[ETA:]
The contrast between Fe and Fi applies to the other functions as well.

Se riffs directly with stuff happening out in the world; Si analyzes data in an internal laboratory to extract patterns and rules.

Ne brainstorms lots of ad-hoc solutions directly in the world; Ni analyzes data in an internal laboratory to extract a single optimal solution or principle for dealing with a situation.

Te organizes and finds fixes directly in the world; Ti analyzes data in an internal laboratory to create logical and legalistic systems for organizing the world.
 

Frosty

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If we're talking stereotypically it's actually reversed. E is focus on the other. I is focus from the self. It is actually much more complex.
[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] mi casa, su casa. :wink:

Yeah thats why I said stereotypically-really I don't think I would be able to describe it well enough if I wrote 10 million pages on the topic-I mean... I don't know-it is easy to lay out a base all encompassing definition-and really thinking too deeply on this-you might come to the conclusion that that is all that is necessary-because I mean it is just categorization... But yeah-to hit every single distinct manifestation-which reactions would be most natural to a grouping- well- there is just too much. But yeah. A better overall generalization could be made. I sorta threw that one up on the fly.

And yeah I wasn't paying it much attention so it might be laid out incorrectly and or sorta uh-mixed up. Was drifting to sleep at the time.

Ill come back later though and maybe try to provide something that I mean-is fuller. I was sorta self dismissive of that... Ha myself- and if I saw someone else posting that I would probably argue it as well.

So I cant WAIT to argue with myself later!

And my excuse for the 'huh what' of this post is that I am overheating. Im sweating out my brainpower...

Dont you feel bad and sorry for me? :alttongue:
 

Forever

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Yeah thats why I said stereotypically-really I don't think I would be able to describe it well enough if I wrote 10 million pages on the topic-I mean... I don't know-it is easy to lay out a base all encompassing definition-and really thinking too deeply on this-you might come to the conclusion that that is all that is necessary-because I mean it is just categorization... But yeah-to hit every single distinct manifestation-which reactions would be most natural to a grouping- well- there is just too much. But yeah. A better overall generalization could be made. I sorta threw that one up on the fly.

And yeah I wasn't paying it much attention so it might be laid out incorrectly and or sorta uh-mixed up. Was drifting to sleep at the time.

Ill come back later though and maybe try to provide something that I mean-is fuller. I was sorta self dismissive of that... Ha myself- and if I saw someone else posting that I would probably argue it as well.

So I cant WAIT to argue with myself later!

And my excuse for the 'huh what' of this post is that I am overheating. Im sweating out my brainpower...

Dont you feel bad and sorry for me? :alttongue:

The INFJ vs INFP does a good job on Fe vs Fi explanation in terms of empathy:
INFP vs INFJ: 5 Surprising Differences To Tell Them Apart


Yes. :devil:

I mean of course. :puppy_dog_eyes:
 

Coriolis

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Fe: your feelings are my feelings
Fi: my feelings are your feelings

So Fe is unaware of their own feelings so it is played out in other feelings where the Fe tries to change the feelings of the other feelings of the other person.

Fi is aware of their feelings, and when another person feels something they think they feel it too so then they feel the other person feelings and its theirs.

Thats how u can know for sure.
Au contraire. This is exactly why I cannot know, but then I disagree with your Fi description above. I don't trust my feelings to tell me anything about someone else because they are MY feelings. I don't assume someone else will feel the same way, even in a similar situation, because we are all different. I have had my own feelings misread or misinterpreted by others often enough (in fact, more often than not) that I try not to do the same to others. I therefore look for more objective measures, or simply ask if it is important for me to know.
 

OrangeAppled

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Sympathy is when you have compassion but don't necessarily share the feeling. With empathy, on the other hand, you share the feeling.

If a woman talks about the problems of childbirth, as a man I sympathize with her plight. I understand that she was in distress and pain, and I feel bad for her. But I haven't experienced it myself, so I can't really empathize to the point of feeling what she felt.

OTOH, when someone talks of losing a job, I empathize. I've been there, and I can remember exactly how that felt. In a discussion about the subject, I can relate my own experiences and help analyze the nature of the experience with the other person.

Link: Empathy vs. sympathy - Grammarist

Anyway, that has little or nothing to do with Fe vs. Fi. Anyone can do both sympathy and empathy, depending on their depth of feeling and shared experience for what someone else is going through.

Fe vs Fi is more about the following:

Fe reacts to emotional events or data in a direct, in-the-moment, from-the-gut manner. Since it's an extroverted function, it functions out in the world and is more immediate.

By comparison, Fi is an introverted fucntion and is more about analyzing emotional data. It brings the data down into a private laboratory, dissects them, creates systems (philosophies, ethics and value systems) on how to handle them, and then uses an extroverted function (Ne, Se, etc.) to apply those systems in the world. Since Fi pulls emotional data down into a private space, the result tends to be more "me-oriented": How do *I* relate to these things.

Anyway, none of that has anything to do with sympathy or empathy. One might say that Fe is more empathetic since it's more from-the-gut. Or one might argue that Fi is more empathetic, because it's more about how *I* relate to things. But really, it's a "red herring" debate. There's no real correlation. Fi and Fe are more about *how* people process emotional data, and not necessarily about the resulting feelings or responses (which can differ greatly, or be very similar).

*****************

[ETA:]
The contrast between Fe and Fi applies to the other functions as well.

Se riffs directly with stuff happening out in the world; Si analyzes data in an internal laboratory to extract patterns and rules.

Ne brainstorms lots of ad-hoc solutions directly in the world; Ni analyzes data in an internal laboratory to extract a single optimal solution or principle for dealing with a situation.

Te organizes and finds fixes directly in the world; Ti analyzes data in an internal laboratory to create logical and legalistic systems for organizing the world.


I think this makes some good points.....especially about the basic I/E difference....although I would say that Fe is not just more immediate real world response, but a rational mentality that is geared towards action to bring various elements into a harmony (which doesn't mean "peace", but all functioning to support some value they have; these values are usually a matter of Pi ideas of how reality is or could be, or else the person may be overly swayed by their environment [true of all extroverts]).

I would also add that the presence of iNtuition* in a mentality brings this addition of what I call "grasping foreign feelings" or experiences. To me, this means Fi or INFPs are not all about their own experience at all.
* (Sensing seems to rely more on concrete data clues, ie body language, or firsthand experience or direct relating from people whose experience they trust).

Growing up, I did not relate easily to other people. I felt a gulf between my inner experience and theirs. I think the development of iNtuition to complement Feeling led to my being able to grasp the "essence" of a person and to simulate that in my brain and then understand how they feel in their circumstance, not how I would feel. Because even in the same situation, we are different people with different histories and makeup.

For me, empathy is understanding, not necesarily absorbing an emotion (which I heavily resist). The shared feeling is the recognition of how it connects to the basic human experience. While a particular experience may not incur, say, sadness in myself, I do know what sadness feels like. I cannot determine what someone else's response indicates unless I know their context. Value is context dependent. If I can get a grasp of their basic nature and life experience, then I know what context their emotion exists in and have a better idea of what it really MEANS. What is it actually signaling?

Some of this is still Fi too....Dario Nardi thinks INFPs use intent, whole-brained listening to "get to the core of someone's psychology", that basically, we are the best listeners, because we put aside our own thoughts to just absorb.

The exploration of your own inner world and, as you say, creating these value systems, is basically mapping out a prototype for the human experience. Fe types tend to simply focus more on understanding how interpersonal dynamics work, by observing and participating in them, and they seem to focus on building a system in real time that works towards some idealized end for human relationships. Obviously, lots of crossover between the two.

However, I think the focus for Fi on the creation/refinement of its value systems, and while Pe may explore how they could manifest in the real world, Pe is also using its exploration to refine these systems. This is particularly true with adult xxFPs.

Interestingly, in Nardi's observations, the IXFPs did not show themselves swayed at ALL after engaging in this listening! Actually, most quickly asserted their own feelings and thoughts, often unchanged by what they just intently listened to.

Some may call this stubborness when those people are trying to convince the IxFP of something else, but considering you thoroughly listened to what they said, it just means that their reason (or lack thereof) failed to trump yours. In other words, the Fi type created this little simulation of you, determined why you feel as you do, considered if your reasoning (or lack thereof) actually upholds whatever value is at stake, and then they compared that to their previously, deeply, thoroughly crafted system for How People Work. Your reasoning and value judgment are deemed flawed. But we really, really listened. Other times, if empathizing, we just use that info to refine our understanding. It is another data point in the system. Sometimes we dont know what to do with it or dont take on any responsbility, so it can make an IxFP look "cold".

Considering this, the ideas in the OP are too black and white to grasp that "empathy" can be and often is tempered by rational thinking. The push for increased empathy is to temper rational thinking. The two are complementary and to deny the relevance and useful power of one is silly. I think there has been stronger denial of empathy or a dismissal of it as weak sentimentalism because of its association with femininity. It is a receptive, internal process, not one of action.

The end of the OP rushes over that idea, but even that little paragraph unravels everything before it by suggesting what most people know is true, and what [MENTION=22236]YUI[/MENTION] summed up - emotions are data points, empathy is an experience to consider as data, and reason is used to form conclusions.

Jung knew this about Feeling types too....they are not called "emotional types" or "empathetic types", but rational types whose focus makes emotion relevant data. They are trying to determine the value things have in the human experience, and emotions are useful signals.

The reason people make jokes about extreme T types being robots is because a robot has no motivation. It performs a sequence to produce a particular end result. How do we determine what end result is useful or good, WHY it is useful or good, etc? Feeling tells us what it means and what value it has for our human experience.

Empathy may be an initial motivating factor, but it cannot determine value alone and suggest an ideal end result for action; it is just information. Feeling reasoning must be used. I definitely have seen what I call "misapplied empathy" or "excessive emapthy" in which people seem to be blown here and there depending on what is pulling their heart strings. This is NOT Feeling as a rational process at all. Again, iNtuition can clue us into the unknown, by suggesting the possible or probable end results of certain actions. Will a particular action actually lead to the ideal end result (or move closer to that goal)? I think Thinking is necessary to tell us how we can strategize to get there.

Without empathy though, we become pretty solipsistic and myopic.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I don't think the argument is against empathy so much as it's against impulsively acting to get rid of unwanted feelings. He makes the distinction between two different kinds of empathy- I can't watch the video right now so I can't retrieve the specific terms he uses, but one is basically based on acting to satisfy immediate gratification of feelings (it gives warm fuzzies) and the other is a more calculated assessment of action. Just because an action is about getting rid of someone else's unwanted feeling doesn't make it a good thing.

I agree with what he's saying, and have gotten frustrated with this tendency in people on a smaller scale. My mom totally spoils her dog because she can't stand seeing the dog experience anything remotely like discomfort- and she's created a monster in the process, because now this dog can't bear to be alone and who expects any nearby human to drop everything and get a treat when she begs for one. (Insert any Veruca Salt parenting story here.) Or besides spoiling per se, in general, impulsive empathy can cut off the process of some form of unwanted feeling/suffering that would actually otherwise bring greater compassion or wisdom in the end if it were allowed to run its course. I think we're doing others a disservice when we impulsively rush to their aid because we can't bear seeing unwanted feelings or distress of any kind.


eta:

Here's a piece Paul Bloom wrote a few years ago for The New Yorker (same topic, before his book): The Baby In the Well: The Case Against Empathy.
 
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