your mental illness is NOT an excuse to be an asshole

[kyuuei]

I tell people all of the time, "If you were an asshole before you went to war, then it isn't PTSD making you act like an ass now."

I know a dude in our running group that pulls this shit sometimes. He'll get sloshed, act a fool, and then get angry that people think he's a fool, act out, and then blame the whole thing on PTSD. No. You don't have PTSD. Or maybe you do, but PTSD isn't a "get out of acting civil free" card. It just isn't. If you're so fucked up you're throwing punches at people for PTSD related reasons, then I'm calling the cops because you're hallucinating and probably need serious mental treatment. Funny how quick the "hallucinations" clear up.

I see soldiers ride on the coat tails of people who had to seriously deal with shit, get zero help, and then claim PTSD. If you aren't being actively treated for it, then you have no fucking excuse to act like anything but an upstanding citizen. PTSD I have even less tolerance for in this category because help is FREE. 250000% free for every single soldier ever. No excuses, at all. Having treated people with PTSD, worked with them, and been family to them, there is something instinctual about seeing someone faking the funk and surfing the waves of support people give.

PTSD claims are particularly assholeish ones because civilians will never understand military concepts. And there is this almost awful vibe of "if you don't support the troops you're pretty much Hitler" in America to boot. Reality is: most soldiers are young assholes that needed discipline for one reason or another. Some never mature. Most gain bad habits while they're in. You can support the troops as a whole while still thinking THAT boot is an asshole. But someone cries PTSD and civilians get all lovey-dovey and suuuuper supportive because that's what they want to do--support people with PTSD and issues they can't comprehend. So then civilians get burned out quicker because they're giving this sympathy to people who don't need it while instinctively thinking they don't need it but not being able to call them out on their shit because they don't have the proper credentials to technically 'know'. They have to wait for a fellow soldier to be like, "No, Fuck you, cut this shit out you wuss and quit being a leech on the fucking system." Meanwhile, people with PTSD see all of this and are scared to even mention it.

A good sign that someone doesn't have PTSD: they keep claiming they do immediately after something stupid they've done. Most people with PTSD do not want to talk about it, or let other people know there's something wrong with them. They want to feel normal.

 

[uumlau]

And then one day DSM recognizes "Asshole" as a legitimate mental illness.

Once upon a time, I would have regarded this as clever satire.

These days, I suspect your words are all too prescient. It's a logical extension of an ongoing moral equivalence.

 

[miss fortune]

Once upon a time, I would have regarded this as clever satire.

These days, I suspect your words are all too prescient. It's a logical extension of an ongoing moral equivalence.

the question is, would a diagnosis lead to a treatment being developed?

(perhaps clockwork orange style watching of mary poppins! )

 

[kyuuei]

What is an excuse to be an asshole? Not trying to be a wise ass, this is a legitimate question. Does anyone ever have an excuse to be an asshole? If so, what excuses would you find acceptable?

Why isn't mental illness a legitimate excuse for being an asshole if it is a real and legitimate illness with biological factors? One that can potentialy turn you into an asshole. Where we are in terms of mentally ill people and personal responsibility versus not being able to take any personal responsibility or make any decisions for themselves is really unclear. (We meaning society at large, not the OP personally.)

It's a sort of tough love situation, but the reality is letting it be an excuse even for people who legitimately cannot control themselves is sort of the worst thing you can do for them. Part of treatment is constantly setting boundaries for people with mental illnesses, and with clearly defined no-gray-nothing terms.

For example, a dude in a manic phase that has sexual issues starts masturbating while standing at my work station (this is a common trait for men with younger female nurses I've quickly found). I know for a fact he has trouble controlling himself, and that no one.. not one person in the whole world told him this was appropriate behavior like ever. But shrugging my shoulders and saying nothing and letting him do it is not the right answer like pretty much ever. Making boundaries is. You don't have to treat him like a subhuman or be an asshole yourself, but I as a human being don't have to deal with a man masturbating near me, and he needs to be aware that the behavior is not appropriate.

If it is a trial of genuine lack of self control, making the person aware of boundaries is extremely important.
If it is a task of dealing with a person who has a mental disorder that definitely CAN do something but is making decisions (subconscious or otherwise) to not do something, then it is no more of an excuse for them. Boundaries are still there, and it is still important to get them to a point of self awareness.

 

[magpie]

expressing a different opinion =/= behaving badly

movies and books and television give unflattering portrayals as well, depending on what you're dealing with... some things are apparently more worthy of sympathy and understanding than others (ok... maybe I'm feeling slightly bitter about that... sorry). and how about to people who don't know what you're going through? and then you use it as an excuse? people who know you usually can pick up on patterns of your behavior and get some understanding, but those who really don't are the ones who will really form the judgments if you decide to use things as an excuse... it's not like everyone wears badges stating what's wrong with them

and the way that you've phrased that makes it sound like some minority viewpoints that I've read

and it's not blamed on it if someone doesn't know them well enough to know that they have one... that's the real problem

I think it's definitely true that movies and books and other media tend to show some things in a more sympathetic light than others. And some things are hardly mentioned or portrayed at all. That is definitely a huge issue and I don't think you have to be sorry about feeling bitter. To be honest this

and the way that you've phrased that makes it sound like some minority viewpoints that I've read

is too obscure for me to know what you're trying to tell me about the way I'm phrasing things or what I'm saying. If what I'm saying is invalidating, hurtful, missing the mark entirely, idealising, or some variation of one of those please be more blunt.

 

[uumlau]

the question is, would a diagnosis lead to a treatment being developed?

(perhaps clockwork orange style watching of mary poppins! )

While your humorous take would actually be quite refreshing if true, I think the problem is the other way around. Lots of things are being set up as "mental illness" when it's really just normal humans being upset about normal things and acting out.

For example, narcissism isn't a mental illness, it's not a "disorder". It's immaturity. All young children have this "disorder", and then they (usually) grow up and don't have it any more. I believe it's likely the same with the rest of the DSM. It's one thing to note patterns so that you can help people better. It's quite another to turn those patterns into categorical excuses.

Or to put it another way, there is a cure for being an asshole: it's called "growing up".

 

[miss fortune]

I think it's definitely true that movies and books and other media tend to show some things in a more sympathetic light than others. And some things are hardly mentioned or portrayed at all. That is definitely a huge issue and I don't think you have to be sorry about feeling bitter. To be honest this is too obscure for me to know what you're trying to tell me about the way I'm phrasing things or what I'm saying. If what I'm saying is invalidating, hurtful, missing the mark entirely, idealising, or some variation of one of those please be more blunt.

what I was speaking about was the idea that one has to be on their best behavior as not to put one's group in a worse light than it already is

 

[kyuuei]

While your humorous take would actually be quite refreshing if true, I think the problem is the other way around. Lots of things are being set up as "mental illness" when it's really just normal humans being upset about normal things and acting out.

For example, narcissism isn't a mental illness, it's not a "disorder". It's immaturity. All young children have this "disorder", and then they (usually) grow up and don't have it any more. I believe it's likely the same with the rest of the DSM. It's one thing to note patterns so that you can help people better. It's quite another to turn those patterns into categorical excuses.

Or to put it another way, there is a cure for being an asshole: it's called "growing up".

There is convenience in the title though, to look at it from the other side a bit. Kids are pretty much sociopaths, they need to be taught things, and then they clear up.. some people never stop being sociopaths though.. and knowing what kind of sociopath they are helps a bit.

 

[miss fortune]

While your humorous take would actually be quite refreshing if true, I think the problem is the other way around. Lots of things are being set up as "mental illness" when it's really just normal humans being upset about normal things and acting out.

For example, narcissism isn't a mental illness, it's not a "disorder". It's immaturity. All young children have this "disorder", and then they (usually) grow up and don't have it any more. I believe it's likely the same with the rest of the DSM. It's one thing to note patterns so that you can help people better. It's quite another to turn those patterns into categorical excuses.

Or to put it another way, there is a cure for being an asshole: it's called "growing up".

personality disorders v. things that'll show up on a brain scan and such

assholes don't need to have something that they consider a legit excuse for behaving as such

 

[magpie]

It's a sort of tough love situation, but the reality is letting it be an excuse even for people who legitimately cannot control themselves is sort of the worst thing you can do for them. Part of treatment is constantly setting boundaries for people with mental illnesses, and with clearly defined no-gray-nothing terms.

For example, a dude in a manic phase that has sexual issues starts masturbating while standing at my work station (this is a common trait for men with younger female nurses I've quickly found). I know for a fact he has trouble controlling himself, and that no one.. not one person in the whole world told him this was appropriate behavior like ever. But shrugging my shoulders and saying nothing and letting him do it is not the right answer like pretty much ever. Making boundaries is. You don't have to treat him like a subhuman or be an asshole yourself, but I as a human being don't have to deal with a man masturbating near me, and he needs to be aware that the behavior is not appropriate.

If it is a trial of genuine lack of self control, making the person aware of boundaries is extremely important.
If it is a task of dealing with a person who has a mental disorder that definitely CAN do something but is making decisions (subconscious or otherwise) to not do something, then it is no more of an excuse for them. Boundaries are still there, and it is still important to get them to a point of self awareness.

Forgive me for not trusting you to speak about setting patient boundaries when you said this

I think the point is a valid one to make to say that I don't count the people who have no will for psychology. If they don't want to be there, then they won't be able to give you an objective answer on whether it helped or harmed. They're going to insist it harmed no matter to affirm their ideations in their head.

in this debacle of a thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...j-infj-/71876-psychology-helped-harmed-3.html

You wouldn't know what a boundary was if it masturbated naked in front of you like the man in your example.

 

[geedoenfj]

*Using mental illness card whenever they feeling like justifying their actions*
There always should be something to take the blame, so instead of getting their heads out of the clouds and face the reality, they insult others and blame them for issues they don't know anything about, and only want to hear the side of the story that suits the frame that they want others to fit in, then they blame the mental illness for their rudeness, how typical!

 

[á´…eparted]

Sometimes there is a legit reason for excusing bad behavior for mental illness. But, its only valid if the one exibiting the bad behavior later acknowledges it, and attempts to do something about it. These situations are really rare.

 

[Ivy]

I think there are people who are not even capable of recognizing that they have caused problems for others due to their mental illness, so to me that's not a condition of accepting that sometimes this is just unavoidable. But the folks [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] referenced in her OP were the ones who fully recognized that they had caused problems for others but blamed it on their mental illness and refused to take responsibility or apologize. That's the key, IMO, is if you later recognize that you fucked up, do you make excuses for it, or do you apologize and try to make it right? That seems like a character issue, rather than a mental illness issue.

 

[Cellmold]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] You mean like this?

Hah I wish I could bring a camera to work sometimes for similar escapades.

Now I'm watching video after video of insane ladies and occasionally insane men. If I'm lucky I'll get insane transgender.

 

[Proctor]

I tell people all of the time, "If you were an asshole before you went to war, then it isn't PTSD making you act like an ass now."

I know a dude in our running group that pulls this shit sometimes. He'll get sloshed, act a fool, and then get angry that people think he's a fool, act out, and then blame the whole thing on PTSD. No. You don't have PTSD. Or maybe you do, but PTSD isn't a "get out of acting civil free" card. It just isn't. If you're so fucked up you're throwing punches at people for PTSD related reasons, then I'm calling the cops because you're hallucinating and probably need serious mental treatment. Funny how quick the "hallucinations" clear up.

I see soldiers ride on the coat tails of people who had to seriously deal with shit, get zero help, and then claim PTSD. If you aren't being actively treated for it, then you have no fucking excuse to act like anything but an upstanding citizen. PTSD I have even less tolerance for in this category because help is FREE. 250000% free for every single soldier ever. No excuses, at all. Having treated people with PTSD, worked with them, and been family to them, there is something instinctual about seeing someone faking the funk and surfing the waves of support people give.

PTSD claims are particularly assholeish ones because civilians will never understand military concepts. And there is this almost awful vibe of "if you don't support the troops you're pretty much Hitler" in America to boot. Reality is: most soldiers are young assholes that needed discipline for one reason or another. Some never mature. Most gain bad habits while they're in. You can support the troops as a whole while still thinking THAT boot is an asshole. But someone cries PTSD and civilians get all lovey-dovey and suuuuper supportive because that's what they want to do--support people with PTSD and issues they can't comprehend. So then civilians get burned out quicker because they're giving this sympathy to people who don't need it while instinctively thinking they don't need it but not being able to call them out on their shit because they don't have the proper credentials to technically 'know'. They have to wait for a fellow soldier to be like, "No, Fuck you, cut this shit out you wuss and quit being a leech on the fucking system." Meanwhile, people with PTSD see all of this and are scared to even mention it.

A good sign that someone doesn't have PTSD: they keep claiming they do immediately after something stupid they've done. Most people with PTSD do not want to talk about it, or let other people know there's something wrong with them. They want to feel normal.

This is something that's definitely not restricted to PTSD. There's a significant number of people (especially on the internet) who claim to have Aspergers, bi-polar or some other psychological disorder and then go on to justify being their behavior because of it. This not only makes them assholes, but can also cause others suffering from a psychological disorder to feel like they're over-exaggerating their illness. I've known people who were slow to get treatment because of this. They felt like they would only be using it as an excuse.

A good sign that someone doesn't have PTSD: they keep claiming they do immediately after something stupid they've done. Most people with PTSD do not want to talk about it, or let other people know there's something wrong with them. They want to feel normal.

Very true. Anyone who's gone through severe trauma would be reluctant to tell others about. At least not until they're coming to terms with it, and even then it would only be those they feel can be trusted.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I saw a t-shirt that said, "I have aspergers. What's your excuse?"

 

[kyuuei]

Forgive me for not trusting you to speak about setting patient boundaries when you said this



in this debacle of a thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...j-infj-/71876-psychology-helped-harmed-3.html

You wouldn't know what a boundary was if it masturbated naked in front of you like the man in your example.

I'm unsure of where your hostility is coming from? You posed the question "If mental illness patients can't be assholes, who truly can?" if I read you correctly... and my response is simply that even when people DO have legitimate "excuses" the reaction is still the same.. To me, no one has an excuse, no one has a right to be an asshole. Some people cannot help it, truly have no self awareness of their behavior in the moment (like my example), and even still it is deemed inappropriate... not only and simply because I'm the brunt of the behavior (though that is a part of it), but that it is not beneficial at all for the patient itself to allow the behavior from mentally ill patients. People without self awareness need to constantly be reoriented towards self awareness.

And if those people have a realm of 'unacceptable behavior' then anyone else NOT currently going through things like hallucinations, delirium, panic attacks, and extreme manic swings while not in treatment certainly don't get more wiggle room.

If your anger with me is with my response in a different thread, confirmation bias leads that one and that's an entirely different discussion. My point in that thread is not that EVERYONE does that, but it is a thing I have noticed with both my own family getting treatment and on the other side trying to help people get treatment. Self fulfilling prophecies and confirmation bias take over.. and people think it is pointless, they think it is stupid, they go into it without wanting to be there. If you don't want to be there, your attitude will reflect it, and usually I've found psychology is a two way street, someone who has no will to be there simply will not receive much benefit from treatment regardless of how awesome the psychologist may be. You've got to want to be there for it to even try to help. And for most of those occasions, what I've seen is that subconsciously they know the only true excuse they have to get out of treatment they don't want is to claim it is harmful.. they look for reasons to claim it harmful without ever giving it a shot. The best example I can give of this is my brother in law, who went to one single treatment for anger management, got angry, and left it claiming the therapist (who was highly recommended by his own peers for similar reasons) was toxic and did nothing. While there is a chance that is true.. the chance is very slim, and the first session of therapy is typically just getting a feel for what state the person is in.. It is far more likely he didn't want to be there, and used confirmation bias to leave treatment. This is highly backed up by the fact he didn't seek a different therapist, but simply just shrugged his shoulders and said he tried and he was done with it all ... and continues to have an anger issue. The reality is he never wanted to be there, and he never truly had a desire to fix his problems. And as much as his wife pushes him, he has to want it himself. He cannot just do it for her. It happens A lot.

I don't see why that point gets so much hostility either.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

In my experience there is a huge number of people with mental illness who are assholes while they don't realize it. They see a lot of their behaviors as normal while they just act unfair and in a wrong manner. Then it's really hard to make them see what they are actually doing wrong and even if you call them out and tell them what's wrong, they can be masters in denying their own unhealthy patterns.
Even people who know about their mental issue live in a denial of lot of their actions, because a lot of them live in their own illusion of the self and their environment (not saying they all are delusional, but they tend to have a trouble with being really objective when sizing up themselves and others).

 

[prplchknz]

I'm unsure of where your hostility is coming from? You posed the question "If mental illness patients can't be assholes, who truly can?" if I read you correctly... and my response is simply that even when people DO have legitimate "excuses" the reaction is still the same.. To me, no one has an excuse, no one has a right to be an asshole. Some people cannot help it, truly have no self awareness of their behavior in the moment (like my example), and even still it is deemed inappropriate... not only and simply because I'm the brunt of the behavior (though that is a part of it), but that it is not beneficial at all for the patient itself to allow the behavior from mentally ill patients. People without self awareness need to constantly be reoriented towards self awareness.

And if those people have a realm of 'unacceptable behavior' then anyone else NOT currently going through things like hallucinations, delirium, panic attacks, and extreme manic swings while not in treatment certainly don't get more wiggle room.

If your anger with me is with my response in a different thread, confirmation bias leads that one and that's an entirely different discussion. My point in that thread is not that EVERYONE does that, but it is a thing I have noticed with both my own family getting treatment and on the other side trying to help people get treatment. Self fulfilling prophecies and confirmation bias take over.. and people think it is pointless, they think it is stupid, they go into it without wanting to be there. If you don't want to be there, your attitude will reflect it, and usually I've found psychology is a two way street, someone who has no will to be there simply will not receive much benefit from treatment regardless of how awesome the psychologist may be. You've got to want to be there. I don't see why that point gets so much hostility either.

can i say as someone who has had bad paranoia and some delusions and what might be called hallucinations, i usually don't react to them and if i do its not in an attention seeking way it's not like me going omg you're trying to kill me i have to harm you. it's more like i'm gonna avoid you and be really scared but if i say something people will think i'm crazy and you will deny your intent. Ie 90% of the time people don't know what's going on at worse people either think i'm anxious/depressed or on drugs/alchol. I'm sure some people do react dramatically to that stuff i just don't, or if i do i'm usually crying and not really able to say it so you still wouldn't know. the only person i've met who did that turned out to be a histrionic who was faking. everyone else, and i was in treatment for 6 months with somepeople who were worse than me their reactions were a lot more subtle then hers, and it could be easy to mistake that reaction being caused by something else if you didn't know like just a bad day. if anything most of them didn't sit around going i have x so i get a free pass. most of goes do i have x? no i can't wait maybe i do. no that stranger online that doesn't know me is right i don't have anything wrong doctors were wrong, they were trying to trick me. but that being said i try not to be an asshole, sometimes i am but so is everybody on occasion, ill or not. and its easier for me to express my self in writing at times

and the histronic really fucked with me, i know i'm not suppose to let others effect me but her actions really did.

 

[kyuuei]

I think there are people who are not even capable of recognizing that they have caused problems for others due to their mental illness, so to me that's not a condition of accepting that sometimes this is just unavoidable. But the folks [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] referenced in her OP were the ones who fully recognized that they had caused problems for others but blamed it on their mental illness and refused to take responsibility or apologize. That's the key, IMO, is if you later recognize that you fucked up, do you make excuses for it, or do you apologize and try to make it right? That seems like a character issue, rather than a mental illness issue.

It's a really fine line to walk.. because there is a stage of lacking self awareness.. where you know you're causing problems, but you haven't yet come to terms that there is something to be done about them. You know you have x, and you use it a crutch because you're in mourning of finding out, or denial, or you're justifying pushing away treatment because it is stigmatized.. it is definitely a character issue, but then again it rounds the situation back out to just 'you're being a jerk and it doesnt have to do directly with your illness.' And really, it is even more important to show people they're being inappropriate during these times where the person sort of knows they're being a jerk but is blaming it on their disorder when it really doesn't fall into that category. Which... can be hard, most people don't know the difference, it is hard to see what is in someone's head, and calling them out can really make you seem like the asshole in some awful gaslighting catastrophe.