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  1. #21
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I tell people all of the time, "If you were an asshole before you went to war, then it isn't PTSD making you act like an ass now."

    I know a dude in our running group that pulls this shit sometimes. He'll get sloshed, act a fool, and then get angry that people think he's a fool, act out, and then blame the whole thing on PTSD. No. You don't have PTSD. Or maybe you do, but PTSD isn't a "get out of acting civil free" card. It just isn't. If you're so fucked up you're throwing punches at people for PTSD related reasons, then I'm calling the cops because you're hallucinating and probably need serious mental treatment. Funny how quick the "hallucinations" clear up.

    I see soldiers ride on the coat tails of people who had to seriously deal with shit, get zero help, and then claim PTSD. If you aren't being actively treated for it, then you have no fucking excuse to act like anything but an upstanding citizen. PTSD I have even less tolerance for in this category because help is FREE. 250000% free for every single soldier ever. No excuses, at all. Having treated people with PTSD, worked with them, and been family to them, there is something instinctual about seeing someone faking the funk and surfing the waves of support people give.

    PTSD claims are particularly assholeish ones because civilians will never understand military concepts. And there is this almost awful vibe of "if you don't support the troops you're pretty much Hitler" in America to boot. Reality is: most soldiers are young assholes that needed discipline for one reason or another. Some never mature. Most gain bad habits while they're in. You can support the troops as a whole while still thinking THAT boot is an asshole. But someone cries PTSD and civilians get all lovey-dovey and suuuuper supportive because that's what they want to do--support people with PTSD and issues they can't comprehend. So then civilians get burned out quicker because they're giving this sympathy to people who don't need it while instinctively thinking they don't need it but not being able to call them out on their shit because they don't have the proper credentials to technically 'know'. They have to wait for a fellow soldier to be like, "No, Fuck you, cut this shit out you wuss and quit being a leech on the fucking system." Meanwhile, people with PTSD see all of this and are scared to even mention it.

    A good sign that someone doesn't have PTSD: they keep claiming they do immediately after something stupid they've done. Most people with PTSD do not want to talk about it, or let other people know there's something wrong with them. They want to feel normal.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  2. #22
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMagician View Post
    And then one day DSM recognizes "Asshole" as a legitimate mental illness.
    Once upon a time, I would have regarded this as clever satire.

    These days, I suspect your words are all too prescient. It's a logical extension of an ongoing moral equivalence.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #23
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Once upon a time, I would have regarded this as clever satire.

    These days, I suspect your words are all too prescient. It's a logical extension of an ongoing moral equivalence.
    the question is, would a diagnosis lead to a treatment being developed?

    (perhaps clockwork orange style watching of mary poppins! )
    “The phrase 'Someone ought to do something' was not, by itself, a helpful one. People who used it never added the rider 'and that someone is me'.” - Terry Pratchett
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  4. #24
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hel View Post
    What is an excuse to be an asshole? Not trying to be a wise ass, this is a legitimate question. Does anyone ever have an excuse to be an asshole? If so, what excuses would you find acceptable?

    Why isn't mental illness a legitimate excuse for being an asshole if it is a real and legitimate illness with biological factors? One that can potentialy turn you into an asshole. Where we are in terms of mentally ill people and personal responsibility versus not being able to take any personal responsibility or make any decisions for themselves is really unclear. (We meaning society at large, not the OP personally.)
    It's a sort of tough love situation, but the reality is letting it be an excuse even for people who legitimately cannot control themselves is sort of the worst thing you can do for them. Part of treatment is constantly setting boundaries for people with mental illnesses, and with clearly defined no-gray-nothing terms.

    For example, a dude in a manic phase that has sexual issues starts masturbating while standing at my work station (this is a common trait for men with younger female nurses I've quickly found). I know for a fact he has trouble controlling himself, and that no one.. not one person in the whole world told him this was appropriate behavior like ever. But shrugging my shoulders and saying nothing and letting him do it is not the right answer like pretty much ever. Making boundaries is. You don't have to treat him like a subhuman or be an asshole yourself, but I as a human being don't have to deal with a man masturbating near me, and he needs to be aware that the behavior is not appropriate.

    If it is a trial of genuine lack of self control, making the person aware of boundaries is extremely important.
    If it is a task of dealing with a person who has a mental disorder that definitely CAN do something but is making decisions (subconscious or otherwise) to not do something, then it is no more of an excuse for them. Boundaries are still there, and it is still important to get them to a point of self awareness.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    expressing a different opinion =/= behaving badly

    movies and books and television give unflattering portrayals as well, depending on what you're dealing with... some things are apparently more worthy of sympathy and understanding than others (ok... maybe I'm feeling slightly bitter about that... sorry). and how about to people who don't know what you're going through? and then you use it as an excuse? people who know you usually can pick up on patterns of your behavior and get some understanding, but those who really don't are the ones who will really form the judgments if you decide to use things as an excuse... it's not like everyone wears badges stating what's wrong with them

    and the way that you've phrased that makes it sound like some minority viewpoints that I've read

    and it's not blamed on it if someone doesn't know them well enough to know that they have one... that's the real problem
    I think it's definitely true that movies and books and other media tend to show some things in a more sympathetic light than others. And some things are hardly mentioned or portrayed at all. That is definitely a huge issue and I don't think you have to be sorry about feeling bitter. To be honest this
    and the way that you've phrased that makes it sound like some minority viewpoints that I've read
    is too obscure for me to know what you're trying to tell me about the way I'm phrasing things or what I'm saying. If what I'm saying is invalidating, hurtful, missing the mark entirely, idealising, or some variation of one of those please be more blunt.

  6. #26
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    the question is, would a diagnosis lead to a treatment being developed?

    (perhaps clockwork orange style watching of mary poppins! )
    While your humorous take would actually be quite refreshing if true, I think the problem is the other way around. Lots of things are being set up as "mental illness" when it's really just normal humans being upset about normal things and acting out.

    For example, narcissism isn't a mental illness, it's not a "disorder". It's immaturity. All young children have this "disorder", and then they (usually) grow up and don't have it any more. I believe it's likely the same with the rest of the DSM. It's one thing to note patterns so that you can help people better. It's quite another to turn those patterns into categorical excuses.

    Or to put it another way, there is a cure for being an asshole: it's called "growing up".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  7. #27
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hel View Post
    I think it's definitely true that movies and books and other media tend to show some things in a more sympathetic light than others. And some things are hardly mentioned or portrayed at all. That is definitely a huge issue and I don't think you have to be sorry about feeling bitter. To be honest this is too obscure for me to know what you're trying to tell me about the way I'm phrasing things or what I'm saying. If what I'm saying is invalidating, hurtful, missing the mark entirely, idealising, or some variation of one of those please be more blunt.
    what I was speaking about was the idea that one has to be on their best behavior as not to put one's group in a worse light than it already is
    “The phrase 'Someone ought to do something' was not, by itself, a helpful one. People who used it never added the rider 'and that someone is me'.” - Terry Pratchett
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  8. #28
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    While your humorous take would actually be quite refreshing if true, I think the problem is the other way around. Lots of things are being set up as "mental illness" when it's really just normal humans being upset about normal things and acting out.

    For example, narcissism isn't a mental illness, it's not a "disorder". It's immaturity. All young children have this "disorder", and then they (usually) grow up and don't have it any more. I believe it's likely the same with the rest of the DSM. It's one thing to note patterns so that you can help people better. It's quite another to turn those patterns into categorical excuses.

    Or to put it another way, there is a cure for being an asshole: it's called "growing up".
    There is convenience in the title though, to look at it from the other side a bit. Kids are pretty much sociopaths, they need to be taught things, and then they clear up.. some people never stop being sociopaths though.. and knowing what kind of sociopath they are helps a bit.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
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    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge
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  9. #29
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    While your humorous take would actually be quite refreshing if true, I think the problem is the other way around. Lots of things are being set up as "mental illness" when it's really just normal humans being upset about normal things and acting out.

    For example, narcissism isn't a mental illness, it's not a "disorder". It's immaturity. All young children have this "disorder", and then they (usually) grow up and don't have it any more. I believe it's likely the same with the rest of the DSM. It's one thing to note patterns so that you can help people better. It's quite another to turn those patterns into categorical excuses.

    Or to put it another way, there is a cure for being an asshole: it's called "growing up".
    personality disorders v. things that'll show up on a brain scan and such

    assholes don't need to have something that they consider a legit excuse for behaving as such
    “The phrase 'Someone ought to do something' was not, by itself, a helpful one. People who used it never added the rider 'and that someone is me'.” - Terry Pratchett
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's a sort of tough love situation, but the reality is letting it be an excuse even for people who legitimately cannot control themselves is sort of the worst thing you can do for them. Part of treatment is constantly setting boundaries for people with mental illnesses, and with clearly defined no-gray-nothing terms.

    For example, a dude in a manic phase that has sexual issues starts masturbating while standing at my work station (this is a common trait for men with younger female nurses I've quickly found). I know for a fact he has trouble controlling himself, and that no one.. not one person in the whole world told him this was appropriate behavior like ever. But shrugging my shoulders and saying nothing and letting him do it is not the right answer like pretty much ever. Making boundaries is. You don't have to treat him like a subhuman or be an asshole yourself, but I as a human being don't have to deal with a man masturbating near me, and he needs to be aware that the behavior is not appropriate.

    If it is a trial of genuine lack of self control, making the person aware of boundaries is extremely important.
    If it is a task of dealing with a person who has a mental disorder that definitely CAN do something but is making decisions (subconscious or otherwise) to not do something, then it is no more of an excuse for them. Boundaries are still there, and it is still important to get them to a point of self awareness.
    Forgive me for not trusting you to speak about setting patient boundaries when you said this

    I think the point is a valid one to make to say that I don't count the people who have no will for psychology. If they don't want to be there, then they won't be able to give you an objective answer on whether it helped or harmed. They're going to insist it harmed no matter to affirm their ideations in their head.
    in this debacle of a thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-harmed-3.html

    You wouldn't know what a boundary was if it masturbated naked in front of you like the man in your example.

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