• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

The Four Agreements

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,195
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz has come up in a few other threads. Its subtitle is A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom. One brief overview reads:

You need a very strong will in order to adopt the Four Agreements—but if you
can begin to live your life with these agreements, the transformation in your life
will be amazing. You will see the drama of hell disappear right before your very
eyes. Instead of living in a dream of hell, you will be creating a new dream—your
personal dream of heaven.

The First Agreement: Be Impeccable with Your Word
The Second Agreement: Don’t Take Anything Personally
The Third Agreement: Don’t Make Assumptions
The Fourth Agreement: Always Do Your Best

This is a really simple, really cool, really powerful book—one of the earlier books I read on my own journey and one I think you’ll enjoy as well if you haven’t already read it

If you have read this book, what do you think of it? What have you learned from it? Would you recommend it to others and why?
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I think the 1st, 3rd & 4th agreements are excellent rules to live by. (My opinion comes from having read the whole book.)

[Abridged version:] As I've said elsewhere in the forum, I think the 2nd agreement is unsatisfying. There's some wisdom in it, but it's oversimplified to the point where it's merely a somewhat helpful reminder to not always take things personally. There's something about never taking anything personally that seems oafish ( :blush: ) to me.

[Unabridged version:] When I'm talking to someone and there's some reaction that's unusual, I sorta can't help but wonder what caused it, if I did something to cause it. And I don't think I'd want to stop making that observation, even if I could. Because I personally find it exhausting to deal with people who don't seem to do much of this themselves- who don't pick up on any indications they're doing or saying something that's having a bad effect. And I don't like the prospect of exhausting anyone in this way.

There are a couple semantic issues I perceive here. For one, there's a couple different ways to understand "taking something personally". It's one thing to think, "This person is having a bad reaction because of something I said or did." It's another to let that observation cause excessive/rampant shame and think, "This person is having a bad reaction to me because there's something fundamentally wrong with me." There's a way to take things personally without taking things mind-numbingly, overwhelmingly personally- to maintain an adequate sense of self worth whilst being able to take responsibility for the ripples we create in the world. Brene Brown defines shame as "the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging." I don't think there's anything productive or helpful about taking things personally in that latter sense, when something simply triggers deep unconscious shame (and if that's actually what Ruiz means, then I agree). But Brown also says that shame is a good thing in that it stops us from hurting others- it's in this capacity that I think the ability to take things personally (to cultivate the wisdom to know when and how much to take it personally) is actually beneficial.

Secondly, there's several ways to qualify/define "unusual" here, not to mention the varying degrees to which 'unusual-ness' becomes relevant. Either it's unusual for that person (meaning: I've accumulated enough experience of an individual to have a customized idea of 'usual' or 'unusual' for that particular person), or it's unusual as a basic standard (meaning: according to the usual behavior of a bigger group).

But beyond those semantic roadblocks (which could fuel potential misunderstandings of this next point):

There are some people who feel it's invasive to notice any amount of 'unusual-ness' in their behavior and/or tone. In such cases, once I pick up on that, I generally have no problem with disregarding such future information- because with that individual, it's the best way to convey respect for their POV and their feelings. But it's not the best way to convey respect for everyone's POV or feelings- only those who find it invasive. This is why I don't find "never take things personally" helpful. There are people who need to have unusual behaviors/tones noticed in order to feel respected. If someone's expression drops directly after I've said or done something, or there's a shift in their behavior (or whatever indication they're experiencing something unpleasant)- that's the kind of thing some people need others to see in order to feel respected. I don't want to just assume it isn't about me. Unless it's been established (somewhat) that I'm dealing with someone who actually wants me to ignore those indications- who finds it invasive for others to pay any attention to them- then it would make me feel oafish to instantly assume all behavior external to me has practically nothing to do with me.

I think we probably instinctively gravitate towards people who share our personal preferences in this regard; whether someone can pick up on cues or if they explicitly need to be told in a very literal way, or just the extent to which cues are typically noticed, etc. Probably as an e5, I personally very easily find someone else's preoccupation with 'unusual-ness' (in their opinion) about my behavior or tone to be unwelcome and invasive (especially when they're so focused on me that it belies an ability to honestly focus on themselves, :sick: :ack!: I have a very bad reaction to it). At the same time- when it comes to the inner circle of people I trust the most- I find I do need a certain requisite amount of the other person noticing on their own when they are doing something that rubs me the wrong way. It's just all a sort of intricate dance of interpersonal relating. I do need for people to be able to instinctively entertain the possibility that my reactions are because of something they said or did, and to have a sense of 'when to bring it up' or know 'when to back off without being explicitly told' that jives with my own sensibilities. Because it's too exhausting for me, at least with those whom I am closest to, to have to put every 'the elephant in the room' into words all the time. There are obviously times when it is necessary to put it into words, and it's important to be ABLE to put it into words- but having to do that for every tiny little incident is too exhausting. I find I need to keep certain folks at a distance because I can tell we're at different wavelengths where this is concerned- it's not that I think it's 'wrong', but interacting with someone very different from myself in this regard feels like walking across territory with hidden landmines.

The biggest problems result- when incompatibilities surface- from people making the assumption their own threshold/preference is the 'correct' human default and (however inadvertently) making someone else feel like there's something wrong with them for having a different preference. While I think such a position (assuming one's own preference is the purest form of human respect) is in itself actually an unconscious defensive mechanism against shame- it's fueled by a fear that one preference really is more 'right' or 'wrong' than another, that one of the sides is 'wrong' and not worthy of acceptance or love- and it's not intended to hurt anyone so much as its purpose is to protect the self (from unconscious shame), but it's amazing how much harm it can cause others. [As a great deal of interaction/behavior in this forum- as a typology forum- can attest, interacting with people who have different preferences can become a horrible shitstorm of people compulsively dumping shame. Even if it's not direct dumping on another person, getting together to 'agree' on some idea about another type can still very much be this sort of compulsive shame dumping.]

To bring this^ back to my point- when someone else is just dumping, that isn't personal. But I just don't think it's particularly helpful to try to make "never take things personally" some kind of default, to try to apply it in some kind of black or white way.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've just read a paragraph in David Richo's When the Past Is Present that reminded me of the second agreement. It's under the subheading "Handling Others' Reactions to Us":

We are not always seeing transference in the reactions of others toward us. Some of those reactions are transference, but some are simply useful feedback. Mirroring is the term used for a parent's receptive understanding of a child's needs and feelings, a matching of need with fulfillment. Such mirroring in childhood helped us understand what we really felt. We continue to learn about ourselves from others' reactions and responsiveness to us. Mirroring of our feelings makes us comfortable in this shared world and eases our sense of isolation. This is why feedback is so important to our growth all through life. The ego that cannot handle feedback is thus a disability.​

From this wiki page:

Transference is a phenomenon characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings from one person to another. One definition of transference is "the inappropriate repetition in the present of a relationship that was important in a person's childhood".[1] Another definition is "the redirection of feelings and desires and especially of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object".[2] Still another definition is "a reproduction of emotions relating to repressed experiences, especially of childhood, and the substitution of another person ... for the original object of the repressed impulses".[3] Transference (German: Ãœbertragung) was first described by psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, who acknowledged its importance for psychoanalysis for better understanding of the patient's feelings.​
 

Jaq

Remember, Humanity.
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
3,028
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
379
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I'd have to disagree with point 3. People make assumptions, it's human nature. Maybe it would be better put as "You may make assumptions, but don't assume your assumptions are gospel."
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Been meaning to read this, mostly because of several enthusiastic recommendations from [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]. Only ever heard good things about it.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,195
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Been meaning to read this, mostly because of several enthusiastic recommendations from [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]. Only ever heard good things about it.
I've only ever heard good things about it from Uumlau.
 

Masokissed

Spoiled Brat 🍒
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
941
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I'd have to disagree with point 3. People make assumptions, it's human nature. Maybe it would be better put as "You may make assumptions, but don't assume your assumptions are gospel."

Yeah. Isn't this guide to personal freedom itself just an assumption? An assumption that it works for everyone.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I've only ever heard good things about it from Uumlau.
I've purposefully not been replying to this thread because Coriolis started it due to wondering why I'd recommend it so strongly, and I'm pretty sure she was looking for opinions other than mine. ;)

I think the 1st, 3rd & 4th agreements are excellent rules to live by. (My opinion comes from having read the whole book.)

[Abridged version:] As I've said elsewhere in the forum, I think the 2nd agreement is unsatisfying. There's some wisdom in it, but it's oversimplified to the point where it's merely a somewhat helpful reminder to not always take things personally. There's something about never taking anything personally that seems oafish ( :blush: ) to me.
You make a lot of good points here. Indeed, even one of my lessons has been (as an Enneagram 9) that I should take certain things "personally" - or rather, consciously observe that my boundaries have been crossed and enforce those boundaries.

I don't think that's what "Don't take anything personally" means, here. What Ruiz is getting at, more precisely, based on how he details this agreement, is that we should not agree with any personal remarks made about us. This might seem an obvious thing, but it isn't. You'd think that if someone says to us, "You are stupid," we'd of course disagree. But no, like children, we don't. We want the other person to "take it back", to "unsay" it, to apologize for it, precisely because we believe it and don't want it to be true. In other words, we react badly to insults, we react badly when we take things personally, precisely because we believe them. Of course, we'd deny actually believing them, quite vociferously, but why are we kicking up such a fuss. If someone told us, "Apples are blue", we'd just look at them funny and wonder why they think such an absurd thing, or perhaps we'd be curious whether they'd actually observed some blue apples. We wouldn't get upset.

But when someone says something personal and untrue about us, we get upset, very upset. We get upset because we agree with the observation even though we don't want to. We're upset because the untrue thing might be true. That's what the 2nd agreement is warning against.

...

The main reason I recommend it is that it contains some very key lessons in how to be emotionally aware. (Note that even F types aren't necessarily emotionally aware.)

1st Agreement: Be emotionally aware of how you affect the world around you. Everything you say and do resonates emotionally, not just in terms of ideas and facts. Embodying a positive emotional tone empowers those around you. Embodying a negative tone can cause others to start embodying the same negativity in themselves.

2nd Agreement: (addressed above)

3rd Agreement: We all live in our own "worlds". (This might be read as us each having our own worldviews, but Ruiz means more than just that, I think.) Everything we believe to be true is a mental construct. When we cease to be aware of that, we start assuming that our thoughts accurately represent the world around us. Just as the 2nd agreement is about not believing/agreeing with what other people say or do, the 3rd agreement is about not believing agreeing with our own thoughts. Our own thoughts are just as error-prone, just as detached from reality, as everyone else's.

4th Agreement: This is more of a helpful tip than anything else. We're always going to be breaking these agreements to some degree. If it were easy, we'd all just do it right the first time. We'll occasionally say/do things that affect others negatively. We'll allow others to affect us negatively (or positively!) when we shouldn't. We'll believe our own bullshit. This agreement is saying that "failure" isn't the problem. Rather, being aware that you're making these mistakes is the important thing.

5th Agreement: This is kind of a "meta" agreement, encompassing all the others, not a separate agreement, really. It comprises two pieces: "Be skeptical" and "but learn to listen".

This might be easiest to convey if I phrase all the agreements in terms of "bullshit".

  1. Don't spread bullshit.
  2. Don't believe others' bullshit.
  3. Don't believe your own bullshit.
  4. Recognize that at times, you're going to believe bullshit or say bullshit, and that's OK as long as you figure out that it's bullshit eventually.
  5. Yes, it's all bullshit, but there is truth in there, behind the bullshit. The truth is that which remains when you remove the bullshit.

Phrased this way, especially to a "Thinker's" mind, it begs the question of how we can tell the difference between the bullshit and the truth. But these books are phrased in emotional tones, not thinking tones. It isn't about factual bullshit and factual truth, but emotional bullshit and emotional truth, about what we BELIEVE emotionally that isn't true, and the emotional truths we miss because of our beliefs.

This is a significant observation of the human condition: it's about how to "objectively" process our emotions in an emotional way, in a feeling way, without trying to analyze them as factual or non-factual.

...

I've noticed that some people just don't connect to this, especially some INTJs such as Coriolis, which is kind of ironic because this book was recommended to me by an INTJ over at INTJf.

I have my suspicions about where these disconnects arise from, but it's difficult to say anything definitive. It's easy to just ascribe it to a "lack of emotional awareness", but that doesn't quite follow. Coriolis isn't "unaware" of her emotions, for example.

The best guess I've got is that some people don't get the idea of "processing" things "emotionally"; that their analytical side is so very apt at handling everything that gets thrown at it, there is no perceived need for some other kind of processing. I was like that for a long while. Then I went through a lot of shit and a lot of pain in a very short span of years (in my late 30s and early 40s). Analytical processing got me nowhere. I was forced to feel things that I didn't want to feel. I was stuck feeling them. And so I had to deal with them. Emotionally, not intellectually.

It's analogous to my learning dancing, too. It isn't that you don't use your intellectual side to learn dancing, but without feeling it, without doing it, you don't learn it. Dance studios make money precisely because you can't learn dancing from a book. It's something you do, and it takes a long time to learn how to do.

Likewise, processing things emotionally is something you do, that isn't learned from a book, and it takes a lot of time and practice to learn how to do it. Also please note that even "F" types need to learn this lesson as much as "T" types. It's not some sort of "talent". It's hard-earned long-term experience.

One final observation about some people "not getting it": the agreements are deceptively simple. It's very easy for a not-very-self-aware person to come across them and say, "Oh, yeah, I do that right; nope I don't take things personally; yep, making assumptions is bad; and yeah, everyone makes mistakes. OK so what's the big deal about this book again?" All I can say is that if you read this book and your opinion is, "Well, yeah, duh, that's obvious!" then you probably don't understand what it's getting at and how it connects to your life. Worse, if that's your opinion, I probably can't explain it to you until life takes you behind the woodshed and paddles you for a long while, at which point you'll be like, "Ooooohhhh! That's what those Agreements meant ...", at which point there's nothing left for me to explain.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
This sounds really interesting but I'd want to see large portions of the population use it or be taught it to see the effects.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,195
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I've purposefully not been replying to this thread because Coriolis started it due to wondering why I'd recommend it so strongly, and I'm pretty sure she was looking for opinions other than mine. ;)
No one else can explain why you recommend something. I was hoping for opinions in addition to yours.

But when someone says something personal and untrue about us, we get upset, very upset. We get upset because we agree with the observation even though we don't want to. We're upset because the untrue thing might be true. That's what the 2nd agreement is warning against.
I still don't see benefit in taking these comments personally. If someone tells me "you're stupid", I know in general that I'm not stupid, so on one level I simply discount the remark. At the same time, I consider whether I was doing something stupid or acting/speaking out of ignorance at the time of the remark. Then I would think "that explains it", and either explain myself to the other person or not, as appropriate. In any case, either there is some truth to the statement which I can take as feedback; or there isn't, and I can dismiss it as an empty remark. I generally get upset only if someone is spreading lies about me to my practical detriment (e.g. to ruin my reputation at work).

1st Agreement: Be emotionally aware of how you affect the world around you. Everything you say and do resonates emotionally, not just in terms of ideas and facts. Embodying a positive emotional tone empowers those around you. Embodying a negative tone can cause others to start embodying the same negativity in themselves.
Knowing that this is so is quite different from knowing what that emotional effect is. It's like saying: I know this document is password-protected, but that doesn't give me the password.

3rd Agreement: We all live in our own "worlds". (This might be read as us each having our own worldviews, but Ruiz means more than just that, I think.) Everything we believe to be true is a mental construct. When we cease to be aware of that, we start assuming that our thoughts accurately represent the world around us. Just as the 2nd agreement is about not believing/agreeing with what other people say or do, the 3rd agreement is about not believing agreeing with our own thoughts. Our own thoughts are just as error-prone, just as detached from reality, as everyone else's.
While I always try to avoid making assumptions, or at least to identify those I am making, I disagree with the highlighted. Some people are much more subject to error than others, whether due to ability, carelessness, or simple disinterest. We all know people who give information that is consistently reliable and accurate, as well as those who continually shoot their mouths off without knowing what they are talking about. Of course this is mainly objective information. If we consider instead the kind of emotional information that you say 4 Agreements is all about, I don't know how we could even say that someone else's (or our own) emotions are "error-prone, and detached from reality". Our emotions ARE part of our reality. Isn't that part of the point?

Phrased this way, especially to a "Thinker's" mind, it begs the question of how we can tell the difference between the bullshit and the truth. But these books are phrased in emotional tones, not thinking tones. It isn't about factual bullshit and factual truth, but emotional bullshit and emotional truth, about what we BELIEVE emotionally that isn't true, and the emotional truths we miss because of our beliefs.
Yes - how does one recognize "emotional bullshit", and what does that even mean? Aren't all emotions supposed to be valid, simply because we have them? Isn't it bad to deny our emotions, or try to make ourselves feel something different because what we are feeling is "wrong"? Some examples might help.

I have my suspicions about where these disconnects arise from, but it's difficult to say anything definitive. It's easy to just ascribe it to a "lack of emotional awareness", but that doesn't quite follow. Coriolis isn't "unaware" of her emotions, for example.
You have stated the opposite before. If not this, then what? (You have my permission to quote any related private content.)

All I can say is that if you read this book and your opinion is, "Well, yeah, duh, that's obvious!" then you probably don't understand what it's getting at and how it connects to your life. Worse, if that's your opinion, I probably can't explain it to you until life takes you behind the woodshed and paddles you for a long while, at which point you'll be like, "Ooooohhhh! That's what those Agreements meant ...", at which point there's nothing left for me to explain.
So if we don't understand, there is basically nothing we can do to understand, other than hoping that life throws us some serious crises? I'm not sure the knowledge would be worth the price. How disappointing.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I still don't see benefit in taking these comments personally. If someone tells me "you're stupid", I know in general that I'm not stupid, so on one level I simply discount the remark. At the same time, I consider whether I was doing something stupid or acting/speaking out of ignorance at the time of the remark. Then I would think "that explains it", and either explain myself to the other person or not, as appropriate. In any case, either there is some truth to the statement which I can take as feedback; or there isn't, and I can dismiss it as an empty remark. I generally get upset only if someone is spreading lies about me to my practical detriment (e.g. to ruin my reputation at work).
I know what you mean. I've generally not taken things personally for the same reasons. See how clinically you explain this? The Four Agreements isn't saying "be clinical about your feelings"; it's saying, "don't believe others' emotional bullshit."

Knowing that this is so is quite different from knowing what that emotional effect is. It's like saying: I know this document is password-protected, but that doesn't give me the password.
Heh.

You have to let yourself feel and empathize in a way that could potentially hurt you. (Not permanently, and just emotionally.) When you do that, you start seeing why other people do what they do based on emotions. And you start seeing how some emotion-driven behavior is wonderful and wouldn't even exist if not for the emotion behind it, and of course some emotion-driven behavior arises from emotional bullshit, and varying degrees of the two.

It helps to remember the study (I keep forgetting the name but someone always reminds me) where people whose emotional centers have been removed can be completely rational and logical, but they apparently lose their ability to make decisions. In other words, rationality can let us see the consequences, but it is our emotions that guide w/r to choosing which of those consequences are preferred.

If emotions always inform our choices, then it behooves us to figure out which emotions we're listening to.

While I always try to avoid making assumptions, or at least to identify those I am making, I disagree with the highlighted. Some people are much more subject to error than others, whether due to ability, carelessness, or simple disinterest.
What about disinterest in emotions? ;)

What about believing that emotions are just simple base instincts that make people act "irrationally"?

We all know people who give information that is consistently reliable and accurate, as well as those who continually shoot their mouths off without knowing what they are talking about. Of course this is mainly objective information.
Exactly. This is not the bullshit you're looking for.

If we consider instead the kind of emotional information that you say 4 Agreements is all about, I don't know how we could even say that someone else's (or our own) emotions are "error-prone, and detached from reality". Our emotions ARE part of our reality. Isn't that part of the point?

I think you're getting very close to the point. Note what's missing here: discernment of emotions. If one regards emotions as "getting in the way" of rational thought, one has only the information that the emotions exist, but lacks the information about what they mean. You've used this pattern in the recent political debate about immigrants, arguing that those who want tighter controls are having "blanket knee-jerk reactions coming from fear". In other words, emotions are equivalent to irrationality for you, at least insofar as any meaningful content they have.

The irony is that this is not only an assumption breaking the third agreement, it's an emotional reaction on YOUR part. One might even argue it's a fear of emotions. Remember, according to the third agreement, assumptions are our own emotional bullshit that we tell ourselves. "Emotions are always irrational" is bullshit. Another example of an emotional assumption is the belief that one doesn't allow oneself to be affected by emotions (and is therefore being more rational, etc., than those who do allow themselves to be affected by emotions).

I think you sense this to some degree, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread. Objectively, you have evidence that there is something that you aren't quite getting, but you aren't sure what it is. To use your password analogy, it isn't that I haven't handed you the password, but that you've ignored it based on your assumptions, in kind of a "Who's on first?" way.

Yes - how does one recognize "emotional bullshit", and what does that even mean? Aren't all emotions supposed to be valid, simply because we have them? Isn't it bad to deny our emotions, or try to make ourselves feel something different because what we are feeling is "wrong"? Some examples might help.
The examples are interspersed in my reply.

The key is in the "what does that even mean"? What does "all emotions are valid" mean? What does "it is bad to deny our emotions" mean?

The answer is that all emotions are valid, and we shouldn't deny them, because dealing with the world without understanding the role that emotions play is like walking around with your ears covered. Yes, you're getting a lot of information through your eyes that is carried by light, but you're missing all the information carried by sound. You can see that the street is clear and that you can cross it, but you can't hear the car that just screeched around a corner and is about to collide with you as you cross.

In your case, you tend to assume that emotions result in bogus analyses - which is often true - and therefore that it is not useful to listen to your emotions.

You have stated the opposite before. If not this, then what? (You have my permission to quote any related private content.)
There is awareness of one's emotions, and then there's awareness of what the emotions mean. Metaphorically, how many boxes do you have for your emotions? The movie Inside Out specifies 5 general classes of emotions, for example. (It's limited to 5 for story reasons, as having a 100 or more characters in the cast would be difficult.) For some people, especially IxFPs, there is a huge rainbow of emotions, a symphony of instruments and chords, and they can hear when any note is "out of tune". But it takes them a really long time to turn those observations into words, because emotions are so subjective and we don't share a good vocabulary for them.

So if we don't understand, there is basically nothing we can do to understand, other than hoping that life throws us some serious crises? I'm not sure the knowledge would be worth the price. How disappointing.

I did say "probably" ;)

I just doubt that you're going to wallow in your emotions long enough to start hearing them as music instead of noise.

I believe that in your case it is strongly linked to your being a type 5 Enneagram. MBTI type plays a role in the actual processing, but Enneagram gets a lot closer to what the emotions, the fears, the desires are. In particular, check out the integration levels: https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personalitytype5 (towards the bottom of the page)

That's the Riso-Hudson version of 5s. Helen Palmer has some other insights, which I found best summarized in this bullet-point list:
Helen Palmer - The Enneagram said:
5's habitual preoccupations include:
  • Privacy
  • Maintaining noninvolvement, withdraw and tighten the belt as a first line of defense.
  • Fear point. Afraid to feel.
  • Overvaluing of self-control. Detaching attention from feelings. "Drama is for lesser beings."
  • Delayed emotions. Feelings withheld while others are present. Emotion come later, when safely alone.
  • Compartmentalizing. Committments in life are kept separate from one another. One box per committment. Time limit for each box.
  • Wanting predictability. Wanting to know what will happen ahead of time.
  • An interest in special knowledge and analytic systems that can explain the way that people work. Want a map to explain emotions. Psychoanalysis. The ennegram.
  • A confusion between spiritual nonattachement and a premature emotional shutdown to keep out pain. The unenlightened Buddha.
  • An attentional style of focusing on life and oneself from the point of view of an outside observer, which can lead to: 1.) Isolation from the feelings and events of one's own life. 2.)The ability to maintain a point of view that is detached from emotional bias.

This is the map you've been looking for. See how your Enneagram type (which I am very sure is a 5 based on our interactions) describes a kind of aversion to emotions? Now here's the thing: it's not going to FEEL like an "aversion". It's not going to FEEL like a "fear". The way you do it is by "not feeling" in the first place: that's part of your coping mechanism. Mine as a 9 is an aversion to feeling anger. In the past, I would truly believe that I was not angry even when I was extremely angry. This is the "emotional bullshit" I'm getting at.

The 5's version of "emotional bullshit" is "I'm not emotional". (And variations on a theme - don't get nitpicky with me on this, please. It's an intrinsic fear of emotions and the lack of control they represent.)

Hence my saying that I probably can't explain it to you: every time I do so, you push back. You don't want to go there. You turn it back into some sort of rational thing when it isn't. You aren't pushing back on purpose. Your pushing back because this is a part of who you are, intrinsically.

Worse, it's not as if I'm an expert on this. In many ways, I'm brand new, and all I can do is say, "Here's the starting point." But each individual's inner terrain is different, and even if I know where the starting point is, I can't easily see where that individual's path leads from there. I only know what my path looked/looks like, and I followed the 9 side, not the 5 side.

:shrug:

Maybe start by asking yourself "What is the emotional reason I made that choice?" when you choose things. All of your choices are informed by your emotions. Think of rationality as the proofs and lemmas, and the emotions as axioms. What axioms do you choose and why? And come up with reasons other than "it's rational" or "it makes sense". Why does it "make sense"? ;)

I'm just stabbing in the dark, here. ... So I'll end with a tl;dr synopsis.

TL; DR - Emotions, both ours and others', contain a lot of useful information. This isn't four-color comics level of information, but a detailed oil painting that explains why people do what they do. The Four Agreements strives to show us how to separate the "drama" of the emotions from the "information" of the emotions. A rejection of drama can seem to align with the superficial message of the book, but usually such a rejection entails a rejection of emotional processing overall, and thus misses the information inherent in emotions.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I saw this thread when it was started but haven't replied because, well, as I recently said in my blog, I wouldn't know how to communicate the concepts in a direct way. Also, I read the book a while ago and now, knowing how my mind works, I would want to read it again so that I don't use the vague feeling-concepts that I've stored away that are likely full of added beliefs and biases. Unfortunately, I don't have time to re-read right now.

I can relate some one personal experience, though. The book got me to rethink my beliefs. I'm sure I'm not quoting, but adding my own stuff into what I'm going to say next. When I read that "everything is a lie" and "we live in a dream" (remember, not quotes--my stored away take on it), I was like "yeah, yeah, how can that be true?" I tend to shy away from the truly mystical/abstract way of explaining things, even though I believe in the concept of that being a way to describe what one doesn't yet understand or have the words for. So, my initial reaction was skepticism. But then I thought about it, and I discovered my beliefs were too narrow because I hadn't ever challenged some of the most basic ones.

But I'm still working out the agreements. What does it mean to me to not take things personally? How does that work in real life? As different experiences present themselves to me, I sometimes look back and see how that agreement could apply. It's not an across-the-board type of rule: don't take things personally. It has greater depth and flexibility than it appears to have at first. What does it even mean? To some it might mean not caring what others think or say, but that doesn't work well for me in real life, so I'm assuming that's not what was meant by the author. Still, I have to find a way of thinking about it that works for me. Eventually, I came up with I care about what people think and say, but I need to learn to not be afraid of what people think and say, then I don't react to personal statements. So, I think it will speak to different people differently, because of the different areas of growth that need to be addressed.

/NF ramblings that may or may not make any sense

ETA: For me it's like the saying "You are what you eat." I understood the words long ago. I thought I understood the concept. Again, "Yeah, yeah, what's the big deal?" But now, I can see how that simple saying encompasses complexity. The minerals, elements, bacteria, flora, and fauna in the soil get taken up by plants, which get eaten by animals and digested by the bacteria in the gut, which are renewed and changed by the bacteria in the plants being eaten and the animals that ate those plants, which eventually die and go back to the elements that make up the soil, etc. Leaving out the radiation from space and what that contributes to the whole process. We really ARE what we eat.

ETA2: And not just compositionally. Science is indicating that what we eat affects our moods and our thoughts (some of our thoughts may even originate with the bacteria in our guts), so, the complexity of the concept increases.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,195
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
You have to let yourself feel and empathize in a way that could potentially hurt you. (Not permanently, and just emotionally.) When you do that, you start seeing why other people do what they do based on emotions. And you start seeing how some emotion-driven behavior is wonderful and wouldn't even exist if not for the emotion behind it, and of course some emotion-driven behavior arises from emotional bullshit, and varying degrees of the two.
How does one do the highlighted, and how could I be hurt just by becoming aware of someone else's emotions? I suspect I would more likely be confused. I do notice when other people act out of emotion, and see how some of it is good and some bad. I hesitate to specify what emotion is in play, though, unless they acknowledge it because I don't want to make those assumptions. A given observable behavior, after all, can often be motivated by a variety of emotions, some quite dissimilar.

It helps to remember the study (I keep forgetting the name but someone always reminds me) where people whose emotional centers have been removed can be completely rational and logical, but they apparently lose their ability to make decisions. In other words, rationality can let us see the consequences, but it is our emotions that guide w/r to choosing which of those consequences are preferred.

If emotions always inform our choices, then it behooves us to figure out which emotions we're listening to.
I have heard of that study. I always thought of the guide to our choices as our values, though. I can articulate my values quite clearly, down through many levels of "why". I don't feel especially emotional about them, though. I do run into situations sometimes where something just "feels" either wrong or right, but I cannot articulate why. I may go with this feeling in the moment, but will make sure to revisit the situation to figure out what values were at play, and why I was feeling that way. Occasionally I will uncover a contradiction in values that needs to be resolved. Often this resolution takes the form of overriding the feeling with an established value, as when I identify an unexplained aversion to someone as arising from prejudice, which goes against my value of accepting each person as the individual they are, and not judging them for group membership or superficial qualities.

I think you're getting very close to the point. Note what's missing here: discernment of emotions. If one regards emotions as "getting in the way" of rational thought, one has only the information that the emotions exist, but lacks the information about what they mean. You've used this pattern in the recent political debate about immigrants, arguing that those who want tighter controls are having "blanket knee-jerk reactions coming from fear". In other words, emotions are equivalent to irrationality for you, at least insofar as any meaningful content they have.
Interesting example. You are reading alot into my comment that isn't there. First, I didn't dismiss fear as a legitimate motivation, only letting fear precipitate "blanket, kneejerk reactions". Fear is a fine and strong motivator. It calls our attention to something very threatening and urgent, and makes us take it seriously. Understanding our fear is part of understanding the problem. If we can identify what we are afraid of, we can determine whether any of it is unfounded, what risks are associated with the rest, and come up with measures that will actually address the real threats. The "blanket, kneejerk reaction" is what happens when we don't take the time to understand our fears and formulate a response that actually addresses them, but rather let the emotion itself drive our response directly. Yes, I don't consider that rational.

The irony is that this is not only an assumption breaking the third agreement, it's an emotional reaction on YOUR part. One might even argue it's a fear of emotions. Remember, according to the third agreement, assumptions are our own emotional bullshit that we tell ourselves. "Emotions are always irrational" is bullshit. Another example of an emotional assumption is the belief that one doesn't allow oneself to be affected by emotions (and is therefore being more rational, etc., than those who do allow themselves to be affected by emotions).
I would say that emotions are extra-rational, more like sensory inputs. It is how we deal with them that can be rational or irrational.

There is awareness of one's emotions, and then there's awareness of what the emotions mean. Metaphorically, how many boxes do you have for your emotions? The movie Inside Out specifies 5 general classes of emotions, for example. (It's limited to 5 for story reasons, as having a 100 or more characters in the cast would be difficult.) For some people, especially IxFPs, there is a huge rainbow of emotions, a symphony of instruments and chords, and they can hear when any note is "out of tune". But it takes them a really long time to turn those observations into words, because emotions are so subjective and we don't share a good vocabulary for them.
Just one box, but as with my sock drawer, it contains a broad spectrum of items. Having them all together doesn't keep me from being able to pick out the pair appropriate to the occasion.

I believe that in your case it is strongly linked to your being a type 5 Enneagram. MBTI type plays a role in the actual processing, but Enneagram gets a lot closer to what the emotions, the fears, the desires are. In particular, check out the integration levels: https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personalitytype5 (towards the bottom of the page)

That's the Riso-Hudson version of 5s. Helen Palmer has some other insights, which I found best summarized in this bullet-point list:
I think you are right about the role of enneagram. I have been reading more about this system, but still haven't figured out how to use it for practical benefit. I will look over your links soon.

Maybe start by asking yourself "What is the emotional reason I made that choice?" when you choose things. All of your choices are informed by your emotions. Think of rationality as the proofs and lemmas, and the emotions as axioms. What axioms do you choose and why? And come up with reasons other than "it's rational" or "it makes sense". Why does it "make sense"?
This is sort of what I do in the values question I described above. I would never be satisfied with "it's rational" or "it makes sense". It's always something like: it keeps my options open, or maximizes the chances of my getting what I want. I can go on to ask "why do I want X?" (because it will help me get a new job). Then "why do I want a new job" (because my present job has become intolerable). "What is intolerable about my job" (list of several problems at work). "Why are those conditions a problem?" . . . And so on. I can go all the way down to notions like what I consider to be the meaning of life, my place in the world, etc.
 

grey_beard

The Typing Tabby
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
1,478
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Bookmarked for possible personal use later.
 

Kheledon

New member
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
572
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
136
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
#1 The First Agreement: Be Impeccable with Your Word is a great goal, but it would be nearly impossible for certain, conflict-avoidant types to do that. That said, I have not read the book in question, but the brief overview leaves me with little desire to do so. I can not expect the impossible (nor would it be fair for me to do so, either from myself or from others).
 

Rambling

New member
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
401
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
How does one do the highlighted, and how could I be hurt just by becoming aware of someone else's emotions? I suspect I would more likely be confused. I do notice when other people act out of emotion, and see how some of it is good and some bad. I hesitate to specify what emotion is in play, though, unless they acknowledge it because I don't want to make those assumptions. A given observable behavior, after all, can often be motivated by a variety of emotions, some quite dissimilar.


I have heard of that study. I always thought of the guide to our choices as our values, though. I can articulate my values quite clearly, down through many levels of "why". I don't feel especially emotional about them, though. I do run into situations sometimes where something just "feels" either wrong or right, but I cannot articulate why. I may go with this feeling in the moment, but will make sure to revisit the situation to figure out what values were at play, and why I was feeling that way. Occasionally I will uncover a contradiction in values that needs to be resolved. Often this resolution takes the form of overriding the feeling with an established value, as when I identify an unexplained aversion to someone as arising from prejudice, which goes against my value of accepting each person as the individual they are, and not judging them for group membership or superficial qualities.


Interesting example. You are reading alot into my comment that isn't there. First, I didn't dismiss fear as a legitimate motivation, only letting fear precipitate "blanket, kneejerk reactions". Fear is a fine and strong motivator. It calls our attention to something very threatening and urgent, and makes us take it seriously. Understanding our fear is part of understanding the problem. If we can identify what we are afraid of, we can determine whether any of it is unfounded, what risks are associated with the rest, and come up with measures that will actually address the real threats. The "blanket, kneejerk reaction" is what happens when we don't take the time to understand our fears and formulate a response that actually addresses them, but rather let the emotion itself drive our response directly. Yes, I don't consider that rational.


I would say that emotions are extra-rational, more like sensory inputs. It is how we deal with them that can be rational or irrational.


Just one box, but as with my sock drawer, it contains a broad spectrum of items. Having them all together doesn't keep me from being able to pick out the pair appropriate to the occasion.


I think you are right about the role of enneagram. I have been reading more about this system, but still haven't figured out how to use it for practical benefit. I will look over your links soon.


This is sort of what I do in the values question I described above. I would never be satisfied with "it's rational" or "it makes sense". It's always something like: it keeps my options open, or maximizes the chances of my getting what I want. I can go on to ask "why do I want X?" (because it will help me get a new job). Then "why do I want a new job" (because my present job has become intolerable). "What is intolerable about my job" (list of several problems at work). "Why are those conditions a problem?" . . . And so on. I can go all the way down to notions like what I consider to be the meaning of life, my place in the world, etc.

I am also INTJ E5, and I'd say that for me, doing the first of those things, opening to being hurt, a great talk on how to do that is Brene Brown's TED talk on vulnerability...and her book Daring Greatly.
 

Rambling

New member
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
401
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I know what you mean. I've generally not taken things personally for the same reasons. See how clinically you explain this? The Four Agreements isn't saying "be clinical about your feelings"; it's saying, "don't believe others' emotional bullshit."

Heh.

You have to let yourself feel and empathize in a way that could potentially hurt you. (Not permanently, and just emotionally.) When you do that, you start seeing why other people do what they do based on emotions. And you start seeing how some emotion-driven behavior is wonderful and wouldn't even exist if not for the emotion behind it, and of course some emotion-driven behavior arises from emotional bullshit, and varying degrees of the two.

It helps to remember the study (I keep forgetting the name but someone always reminds me) where people whose emotional centers have been removed can be completely rational and logical, but they apparently lose their ability to make decisions. In other words, rationality can let us see the consequences, but it is our emotions that guide w/r to choosing which of those consequences are preferred.

If emotions always inform our choices, then it behooves us to figure out which emotions we're listening to.


What about disinterest in emotions? ;)

What about believing that emotions are just simple base instincts that make people act "irrationally"?


Exactly. This is not the bullshit you're looking for.



I think you're getting very close to the point. Note what's missing here: discernment of emotions. If one regards emotions as "getting in the way" of rational thought, one has only the information that the emotions exist, but lacks the information about what they mean. You've used this pattern in the recent political debate about immigrants, arguing that those who want tighter controls are having "blanket knee-jerk reactions coming from fear". In other words, emotions are equivalent to irrationality for you, at least insofar as any meaningful content they have.

The irony is that this is not only an assumption breaking the third agreement, it's an emotional reaction on YOUR part. One might even argue it's a fear of emotions. Remember, according to the third agreement, assumptions are our own emotional bullshit that we tell ourselves. "Emotions are always irrational" is bullshit. Another example of an emotional assumption is the belief that one doesn't allow oneself to be affected by emotions (and is therefore being more rational, etc., than those who do allow themselves to be affected by emotions).

I think you sense this to some degree, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread. Objectively, you have evidence that there is something that you aren't quite getting, but you aren't sure what it is. To use your password analogy, it isn't that I haven't handed you the password, but that you've ignored it based on your assumptions, in kind of a "Who's on first?" way.


The examples are interspersed in my reply.

The key is in the "what does that even mean"? What does "all emotions are valid" mean? What does "it is bad to deny our emotions" mean?

The answer is that all emotions are valid, and we shouldn't deny them, because dealing with the world without understanding the role that emotions play is like walking around with your ears covered. Yes, you're getting a lot of information through your eyes that is carried by light, but you're missing all the information carried by sound. You can see that the street is clear and that you can cross it, but you can't hear the car that just screeched around a corner and is about to collide with you as you cross.

In your case, you tend to assume that emotions result in bogus analyses - which is often true - and therefore that it is not useful to listen to your emotions.


There is awareness of one's emotions, and then there's awareness of what the emotions mean. Metaphorically, how many boxes do you have for your emotions? The movie Inside Out specifies 5 general classes of emotions, for example. (It's limited to 5 for story reasons, as having a 100 or more characters in the cast would be difficult.) For some people, especially IxFPs, there is a huge rainbow of emotions, a symphony of instruments and chords, and they can hear when any note is "out of tune". But it takes them a really long time to turn those observations into words, because emotions are so subjective and we don't share a good vocabulary for them.



I did say "probably" ;)

I just doubt that you're going to wallow in your emotions long enough to start hearing them as music instead of noise.

I believe that in your case it is strongly linked to your being a type 5 Enneagram. MBTI type plays a role in the actual processing, but Enneagram gets a lot closer to what the emotions, the fears, the desires are. In particular, check out the integration levels: https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personalitytype5 (towards the bottom of the page)

That's the Riso-Hudson version of 5s. Helen Palmer has some other insights, which I found best summarized in this bullet-point list:


This is the map you've been looking for. See how your Enneagram type (which I am very sure is a 5 based on our interactions) describes a kind of aversion to emotions? Now here's the thing: it's not going to FEEL like an "aversion". It's not going to FEEL like a "fear". The way you do it is by "not feeling" in the first place: that's part of your coping mechanism. Mine as a 9 is an aversion to feeling anger. In the past, I would truly believe that I was not angry even when I was extremely angry. This is the "emotional bullshit" I'm getting at.

The 5's version of "emotional bullshit" is "I'm not emotional". (And variations on a theme - don't get nitpicky with me on this, please. It's an intrinsic fear of emotions and the lack of control they represent.)

Hence my saying that I probably can't explain it to you: every time I do so, you push back. You don't want to go there. You turn it back into some sort of rational thing when it isn't. You aren't pushing back on purpose. Your pushing back because this is a part of who you are, intrinsically.

Worse, it's not as if I'm an expert on this. In many ways, I'm brand new, and all I can do is say, "Here's the starting point." But each individual's inner terrain is different, and even if I know where the starting point is, I can't easily see where that individual's path leads from there. I only know what my path looked/looks like, and I followed the 9 side, not the 5 side.

:shrug:

Maybe start by asking yourself "What is the emotional reason I made that choice?" when you choose things. All of your choices are informed by your emotions. Think of rationality as the proofs and lemmas, and the emotions as axioms. What axioms do you choose and why? And come up with reasons other than "it's rational" or "it makes sense". Why does it "make sense"? ;)

I'm just stabbing in the dark, here. ... So I'll end with a tl;dr synopsis.

TL; DR - Emotions, both ours and others', contain a lot of useful information. This isn't four-color comics level of information, but a detailed oil painting that explains why people do what they do. The Four Agreements strives to show us how to separate the "drama" of the emotions from the "information" of the emotions. A rejection of drama can seem to align with the superficial message of the book, but usually such a rejection entails a rejection of emotional processing overall, and thus misses the information inherent in emotions.

Yep, you nailed it, here.

The quote I can't quite remember is the one which goes something like: the simplicity which comes AFTER complexity is worth every jewel on the planet...

I will get around to reading this book, as I am convinced already from reading other books and trying out all kinds of stuff, that this is the way to gain inner flexibility from self-imposed and forgotten past constraints. Thanks to OP and you for the recommendation.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
You know, it's possible that this book isn't for everyone. Maybe you already understand its message in your own way, or maybe its message isn't universal and holds no meaning for some, or maybe the timing is wrong, or maybe only certain experiences lead one to needing this message, etc. :shrug:
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,195
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I am also INTJ E5, and I'd say that for me, doing the first of those things, opening to being hurt, a great talk on how to do that is Brene Brown's TED talk on vulnerability...and her book Daring Greatly.
Brene Brown rivals the Four Agreements in being frustrating and incomprehensible. Short on practical advice and long on . . . I'm not even sure what to call it. Going around in circles with buzzwords that are never really explained, perhaps. I might as well watch a bollywood drama without subtitles.

I will get around to reading this book, as I am convinced already from reading other books and trying out all kinds of stuff, that this is the way to gain inner flexibility from self-imposed and forgotten past constraints. Thanks to OP and you for the recommendation.
I did not recommend this book, nor would I as long as its utility escapes me. The whole point of the thread was to try to understand what other people get out of it, and why they recommend it.
[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] may be right. We all learn differently and will not all respond the same to a given resource. Different strokes and all.
 
Top