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The Four Agreements

SearchingforPeace

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Brene Brown rivals the Four Agreements in being frustrating and incomprehensible. Short on practical advice and long on . . . I'm not even sure what to call it. Going around in circles with buzzwords that are never really explained, perhaps. I might as well watch a bollywood drama without subtitles.

And I thought Gifts of Imperfection and Daring Greatly were pretty straight forward and easy to understand... they just made perfect sense to me. ....
 

Coriolis

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And I thought Gifts of Imperfection and Daring Greatly were pretty straight forward and easy to understand... they just made perfect sense to me. ....
I admit I have not read her books, just watched several of her videos, including the TED talk on vulnerability. Every time I think I finally understand her point, she says one more thing that makes me realize I absolutely did not. I need a translation, or to learn enough "Brown-speak" that I can make heads or tails of it.
 

SearchingforPeace

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I admit I have not read her books, just watched several of her videos, including the TED talk on vulnerability. Every time I think I finally understand her point, she says one more thing that makes me realize I absolutely did not. I need a translation, or to learn enough "Brown-speak" that I can make heads or tails of it.

The talks are only a superficial gateway. ...the books are much better. I was very distant from myself when I first read her. It was enlightening. ...
 

uumlau

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Well, [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], if "Brown speak" is beyond you, perhaps "Brown noise"?

 

Coriolis

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The talks are only a superficial gateway. ...the books are much better. I was very distant from myself when I first read her. It was enlightening. ...
A helpful observation. I will look for one and see if it is any better.

Well, [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], if "Brown speak" is beyond you, perhaps "Brown noise"?
Brown-speak = Brown noise, as far as I can tell. OK, perhaps not quite as random. There are definite patterns in the randomness.

I will give Brene Brown another chance, in writing, but South Park is too much. No. Just. No.
 

á´…eparted

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:huh: this doesn't resonate with me, and I don't think I would want to live my life in the ways suggested here. It's been mentioned that it isn't for everyone and I am definitely one of them. I have heard this elsewhere recently, and I remember it being suggested. I'm sorta surprised though because this is pretty obviously something I wouldn't really do. I mean I get it, and it can work for people, but I think is too passive and ignoring of problems. It also sounds really preachy/haughty and implying that "this is the most ideal way to live" and I really hate it when lifestyle instructions are worded that way :dry:. There is no one end all be all way to live.

Quoting these points (written by [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]) since it explains them better so I can address each agreement (the short words were slightly unclear)

1st Agreement: Be emotionally aware of how you affect the world around you. Everything you say and do resonates emotionally, not just in terms of ideas and facts. Embodying a positive emotional tone empowers those around you. Embodying a negative tone can cause others to start embodying the same negativity in themselves.

2nd Agreement: (addressed above)

Eh sure, that can work, but not how for I am and how I want to do things. It implies that being negative is bad. Just because something negative does not mean it's bad, and it can certainly be warranted and called for. There is a line where you can go too far, but that's fairly reasonable to figure out, and most peoples check of this is rather solid. I would be under immense persistent strain if I acted as this would want me to. I also seeing it have the potential to be a doormat and I really do see it having a lot of potential to shirking bad problems. Specifically with agreement and taking things personally, I think there are indeed times where you really need to take things personally, and should. In particular if someone is intending to do that. Not so much as to literally take to heart what is said, but respond to it as if that were the case. I also think it should be done when being naiive happens frequently with no change.

3rd Agreement: We all live in our own "worlds". (This might be read as us each having our own worldviews, but Ruiz means more than just that, I think.) Everything we believe to be true is a mental construct. When we cease to be aware of that, we start assuming that our thoughts accurately represent the world around us. Just as the 2nd agreement is about not believing/agreeing with what other people say or do, the 3rd agreement is about not believing agreeing with our own thoughts. Our own thoughts are just as error-prone, just as detached from reality, as everyone else's.

I don't think I could even begin to see my morals if I did this, and then bye bye functioning. Some things in the world need to be taken as an axiom (for some anyway, I can see how people can get by this way). You should still question your own thoughts, but it must be triaged so as not to waste time over pointless distinctions. It seems like an excessively strong way of saying "don't be arrogant".

4th Agreement: This is more of a helpful tip than anything else. We're always going to be breaking these agreements to some degree. If it were easy, we'd all just do it right the first time. We'll occasionally say/do things that affect others negatively. We'll allow others to affect us negatively (or positively!) when we shouldn't. We'll believe our own bullshit. This agreement is saying that "failure" isn't the problem. Rather, being aware that you're making these mistakes is the important thing.

Sort of irrelevant because it assumes taking these agreement. Nevertheless this is fine if one does, as it's essentially saying "be easy on yourself".


Ultimately I am with [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] on this. I can kinda see how this could "work" for someone if their end goal was to eliminate conflict as much as possible while improving objective viewing of human interactions, sure. I personally think this is a poor way to live, because it removes ones personal control to a degree I wouldn't tolerate, suggests ignoring crappy things that should not be ignored, and overall suppresses expression and emotional release.
 

Eilonwy

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I'd like to point out that though there is a possibility that the message isn't for everyone, that doesn't mean that there isn't a message, or that the message isn't valid and worthy just because it doesn't seem valid or worthy to you (general you) at this point in time. Getting back to the basics of typology, it's possible to come to the same conclusions through different thought processes. Perhaps this thought process isn't the one for you (general you).

That said, I think it's good practice to keep an open mind--that possibly you are missing some piece of the puzzle. And with that in mind, every so often revisiting the things that didn't make sense in the past, in order to see if your understanding has changed, is not a bad idea.
 

Litsnob

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The biggest problems result- when incompatibilities surface- from people making the assumption their own threshold/preference is the 'correct' human default and (however inadvertently) making someone else feel like there's something wrong with them for having a different preference. While I think such a position (assuming one's own preference is the purest form of human respect) is in itself actually an unconscious defensive mechanism against shame- it's fueled by a fear that one preference really is more 'right' or 'wrong' than another, that one of the sides is 'wrong' and not worthy of acceptance or love- and it's not intended to hurt anyone so much as its purpose is to protect the self (from unconscious shame), but it's amazing how much harm it can cause others. [As a great deal of interaction/behavior in this forum- as a typology forum- can attest, interacting with people who have different preferences can become a horrible shitstorm of people compulsively dumping shame. Even if it's not direct dumping on another person, getting together to 'agree' on some idea about another type can still very much be this sort of compulsive shame dumping.]

THIS is what broke m marriage. And being the INFJ that I am I forgave and excused and thought it was my role to cope with all of that behaviour. Until I had finally had enough (23 years in) and did what I have recently learned is called the INFJ door slam. I am sure that at least some of this so called INFJ door slamming is not at all as sudden and impulsive as it looks to other people.
 

Litsnob

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I have not read the book yet, so my apologies if my response is not wanted. The book is one of an seemingly infinite stack of books in my yet to read pile. I do have The Four Agreements printed out and stuck to my fridge so I could ponder them as they did strike a chord with me when I first saw them.

Initially I responded to Don't Take Anything Personally because taking everything personally is definitely something I do and have been aware for some time that I needed to work on it. Putting this on my fridge is an attempt to help myself with that, but I think I translate it 'anything' into 'everything'. Some things are personal, but I should really question my instinct to think they all are. And probably the truth is in the middle where it always is, and it is a little be and a little bit you if things have gone awry.

I struggle to understand the first one. I need to know what impeccable means and yes, I do know it's definition. But what does it mean when I imply it. Is it directing me to never ever tell a lie? I tell white lies all the time to avoid hurting someone's feelings, though usually with careful consideration as to the repercussions of the lie. Where I am less skilled at noting the repercussions is how they will affect myself. That is, I am likely to tell someone that I am not bothered by the cold draft from their open window when in fact I am. I think this is the part of being impeccable that I need to work on and I think the deliberate vagueness of this agreement allows us to figure that sort of thing out for ourselves.

The third and fourth agreements seem to be things I am instinctively pretty good at, though I could keep an eye on my tendency to make an assumption that something is personal.

I suspect that one of the reasons I've not bumped this book closer to the top of my infinite To Read Next pile is that I am not convinced there is anything more I need to read other than the actual agreements themselves and ponder them. I could be quite wrong, but I am curious to read through this thread and see what others say.
 

Litsnob

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Hi there enigmatic JP, I think I agree with you. I would say, assumptions are natural but we should always question them. Maybe some people make more accurate assumptions than others do. It seems to me that would be likely.
 

Litsnob

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Thank you for this explanation! As an emotional sponge, what I take personally is often moods as opposed to words. If I am with someone who seems angry or depressed I will wonder if it is my fault. I often pick up on an emotion they are not aware they are displaying. In the case of people very close to me, I've had to learn not to assume it is somehow my fault and sometimes to ask and check to clarify that. My son is very much the same way. I am better at not taking words personally. It's easier to disagree with words. Perhaps this is a function of my being so feeling oriented that I give them more value.

I did like your bullshit version. :) I am quite tempted to print that out and add it to my fridge.

I like to believe that my thinking function is strong. I am sure that it is, but my instinctively used function is feeling. I have to take a deep breath and say to myself, okay now, does what you are feeling make any sense when you compare it with what you know through thinking? I got the feeling -hah my favourite word-that The Four Agreements posted on my fridge would help remind me to keep this balance and not just feel my way through life.

I am not yet convinced that I need to read the rest of the book. ;-)
 

Coriolis

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Ultimately I am with [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] on this. I can kinda see how this could "work" for someone if their end goal was to eliminate conflict as much as possible while improving objective viewing of human interactions, sure. I personally think this is a poor way to live, because it removes ones personal control to a degree I wouldn't tolerate, suggests ignoring crappy things that should not be ignored, and overall suppresses expression and emotional release.
See, I don't actually disagree with the agreements themselves as guidelines for living. I am very mindful of my words, spoken and written, I take very little personally, I do my best to question assumptions and at least identify the ones I choose to make, and I try to learn from failures rather than beating myself up over not being perfect. I'm sure I don't live up to these any more than the next person, but at least I see their validity and do try.

My objection to the book is that it really doesn't help someone actually follow the agreements. [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] has made comments to me suggesting that I don't really understand the agreements, which implies that I may not be following them (or even trying to follow them) as closely as I think. I am more than willing to accept this observation, but it is useless without some pointers on how to do better. If I can't get it from the book itself, where do I find it?
 

Rambling

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Brene Brown rivals the Four Agreements in being frustrating and incomprehensible. Short on practical advice and long on . . . I'm not even sure what to call it. Going around in circles with buzzwords that are never really explained, perhaps. I might as well watch a bollywood drama without subtitles.


I did not recommend this book, nor would I as long as its utility escapes me. The whole point of the thread was to try to understand what other people get out of it, and why they recommend it.

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] may be right. We all learn differently and will not all respond the same to a given resource. Different strokes and all.

Well, I haven't read the Four Agreements yet, so I can't comment further on that book.

But as for Brene Brown, I think one way to get into what she is driving at is to think of the things you might LEAST want to confide to anyone. Taking any kind of a step towards discussing (Te) or emoting (Fi) around those kinds of secretive personal issues (this could be by writing such as journalling, or talking to someone you trust, or with a counsellor) is the feeling she describes as 'vulnerability'. Essentially I think it's about taking an emotional risk of that kind. Rather than hide due to perfectionism, or shame or other good reasons for hiding, actually begin to process and acknowledge that stuff.

I also read Pennebaker's book Opening up, the power of expressing emotion (or some similar title) and his research showed short term (few days) negative feelings in doing this and long term (six months) extremely positive effects. It really caused me to think about how I process my dirty laundry, and since I began to intentionally do this myself I have found plenty of benefits longer term as he says, and short term it does take energy and commitment.

If you don't *have* much inner 'dirty laundry' then it may not apply to you in quite the way it did to me, [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], but for example you might consider why you pull back and experience the E5 fear reaction and what situations aggravate that, and why...those are possible questions which might evoke a feeling of shame or trauma or unprocessed stuff within you, but I am not you and this stuff is personal, I guess.

It's a bit like moving from :peepwall: to doing :hideyhole: to your own self deliberately and in cold blood, but it is what I found when I got into the INTJ reading research state which looks like this: :bookish:

I am hoping to become a :sage: :)
 

Coriolis

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But as for Brene Brown, I think one way to get into what she is driving at is to think of the things you might LEAST want to confide to anyone. Taking any kind of a step towards discussing (Te) or emoting (Fi) around those kinds of secretive personal issues (this could be by writing such as journalling, or talking to someone you trust, or with a counsellor) is the feeling she describes as 'vulnerability'. Essentially I think it's about taking an emotional risk of that kind. Rather than hide due to perfectionism, or shame or other good reasons for hiding, actually begin to process and acknowledge that stuff.
Yours is the most useful post I have seen to date on this topic. Now, at the risk of looking like a complete idiot, I am going to ask a really lame question. (OK - a series of them.)

What exactly is an emotional risk? What are we risking? Being hurt by someone else because of what we share with them? How does this work? Do we regret having shared it? Are we ashamed of it? Or does the hurt happen only if the person uses the information against us somehow?
 

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How to do emotional work innerly

Yours is the most useful post I have seen to date on this topic. Now, at the risk of looking like a complete idiot, I am going to ask a really lame question. (OK - a series of them.)

What exactly is an emotional risk? What are we risking? Being hurt by someone else because of what we share with them? How does this work? Do we regret having shared it? Are we ashamed of it? Or does the hurt happen only if the person uses the information against us somehow?

Nice. I like how you point out you are taking a risk in asking the question! :)

Now look, I'm an INTJ and I've used myself as an experimental subject in this stuff, so I am convinced it works. But in my head I absolutely have to have a set of precise definitions and I can't live internally with the vagueness of some of the explanations. Yours is a great question and it is spot on...also it is how I would have seen the risk from the point before I attempted the risk. Exactement, to use the French word.

If you will let me define terms my way, and I'm not quoting any books here, this is how I see it in my language. I use Ni so I will add visuals, however daft they look in writing.

Define terms.

Trigger - a context (event, presence, situation, person etc) which causes or induces a reaction
Emotion - the 'liquid flow' of reaction caused immediately by the trigger. I cannot control this, it happens inadvertently inside me due to the trigger. Some are pleasant, some less so, such as fear, joy, anger, disappointment, cherishing and so on. I experience this in what I view as something akin to interstitial spaces inside me but inbetween the actual particles of me, so to speak. Like a warm bath, or water mixing with wine...I am in the emotion but I retain my own self inside it, and have choice whether to receive it and go with it or how to react to it.
Value - a concrete statement about what I have decided is important in life longterm, unlikely to change within the moment. Such as 'people are valuable and fragile' or 'it is important to be nice to people' or such like items. (The four agreements would fall into this category for me, it seems like they are four value laden statements.)
Feeling - Allowing an emotion in leads to a feeling, which might remain for some time like a day or several days, and these feelings stick with the memory of the event eg I enjoyed our banter last Tuesday, I was ashamed of my outfit at the dinner party. There is a step of choice between the emotions which fly in and out quite fast and change quite fast, and the feeling I choose to remain with and experience. Sometimes staying with an unpleasant emotion (why did him saying that make me feel afraid this morning...) and allowing it to sit around (to me this is more like allowing it to swill around, but they seem to say 'sit with' I have noticed) inside me for a few days may yield interesting new information, but is an uncomfortable and possibly a vulnerable or risky step, not undertaken lightly or easily.
Mood - the 'depth of the tank of liquid', so a low mood is a compilation of, or an integration of (ie find the volume) the feeling function over time. If I haven't allowed many feelings in, then my mood is calm and I can think clearly (INTJ preferred state :) ) but I feel empty and I don't experience life so fully, there are less wonderful highs and less lows, it's like living on tranquillisers and then my reaction is to allow the next random emotion (whether positive or negative) to come in fully and overwhelm me, like a winter storm or a dam burst...and that is too random, and may not even reflect or emote the true me at all properly to anyone around me. For a higher mood over time I have found (at this time in my life and from a couple of years ago and continually since then I have learnt and relearnt and discovered different aspects of this process and I am not done yet...but I am well on the way) that I have to make time to 'listen to my emotions' which is deciding which emotions to allow in to me from the constant liquids arriving and available to me. Then to deliberately make myself vulnerable to explore them in whatever way is appropriate (can be by asking questions of them or of myself, can be by allowing them to slosh around, can be by trying to verbalise them to someone else or write about them, or possibly by using them as an inspiration for a random painting or drawing, but I find that less insightful as a method, though it does dispel the emotion I have chosen to sit with). In doing these activities fairly deliberately and regularly I am adapting better to everyday situations, I am asking better questions in this realm, I am understanding my own history better and finding healing and courage to face my demons and I am becoming more flexible as I get older, not less flexible, I am not solidifying internally in the way that many folk do because they get fossilised by stuff that has happened to them that they can't deal with, so they lose flexibility.

To answer your question. I think the true risk is therefore actually that 'you lose a part of yourself' - that particular trigger of a particular situation has always caused you to become tense, let's say and that tenseness has become familiar, it's become a 'go-to' state innerly which is actually familiar and comfortable to you **even if it is logically wrong and also inappropriate for today's situation**. The risk is the loss of that comfortable inner state and the certainty of being right inside, as in 'dinner parties always make me feel tense' for example. People defend these kinds of statements in many ways, but that is because they don't want to take the risk of inner change which risks losing a bit of what they are comfortable with, at least, that's how I see it. I'm not condemning anyone, mind you, because this kind of processing is downright hard work and to me it has felt like doing it and finding out how it works without a road map and in a world of ill defined terms populated by excitable emotional types who know how to do it themselves and know the benefits of it but who can be rather helpless as teachers and guides because if you can do something by instinct you can't teach anyone else in any systematic way. But if my explanations are any help to you I'd be interested to know how you get on and over time whether you (or indeed anyone else) wanted to add or refine them.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I'd really like to comment on assumptions but I think I'm missing something without reading the book first.
 

Coriolis

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Nice. I like how you point out you are taking a risk in asking the question! :)

Now look, I'm an INTJ and I've used myself as an experimental subject in this stuff, so I am convinced it works. But in my head I absolutely have to have a set of precise definitions and I can't live internally with the vagueness of some of the explanations. Yours is a great question and it is spot on...also it is how I would have seen the risk from the point before I attempted the risk. Exactement, to use the French word.

If you will let me define terms my way, and I'm not quoting any books here, this is how I see it in my language. I use Ni so I will add visuals, however daft they look in writing.

Define terms.

Trigger - a context (event, presence, situation, person etc) which causes or induces a reaction
Emotion - the 'liquid flow' of reaction caused immediately by the trigger. I cannot control this, it happens inadvertently inside me due to the trigger. Some are pleasant, some less so, such as fear, joy, anger, disappointment, cherishing and so on. I experience this in what I view as something akin to interstitial spaces inside me but inbetween the actual particles of me, so to speak. Like a warm bath, or water mixing with wine...I am in the emotion but I retain my own self inside it, and have choice whether to receive it and go with it or how to react to it.
Value - a concrete statement about what I have decided is important in life longterm, unlikely to change within the moment. Such as 'people are valuable and fragile' or 'it is important to be nice to people' or such like items. (The four agreements would fall into this category for me, it seems like they are four value laden statements.)
Feeling - Allowing an emotion in leads to a feeling, which might remain for some time like a day or several days, and these feelings stick with the memory of the event eg I enjoyed our banter last Tuesday, I was ashamed of my outfit at the dinner party. There is a step of choice between the emotions which fly in and out quite fast and change quite fast, and the feeling I choose to remain with and experience. Sometimes staying with an unpleasant emotion (why did him saying that make me feel afraid this morning...) and allowing it to sit around (to me this is more like allowing it to swill around, but they seem to say 'sit with' I have noticed) inside me for a few days may yield interesting new information, but is an uncomfortable and possibly a vulnerable or risky step, not undertaken lightly or easily.
Mood - the 'depth of the tank of liquid', so a low mood is a compilation of, or an integration of (ie find the volume) the feeling function over time. If I haven't allowed many feelings in, then my mood is calm and I can think clearly (INTJ preferred state :) ) but I feel empty and I don't experience life so fully, there are less wonderful highs and less lows, it's like living on tranquillisers and then my reaction is to allow the next random emotion (whether positive or negative) to come in fully and overwhelm me, like a winter storm or a dam burst...and that is too random, and may not even reflect or emote the true me at all properly to anyone around me. For a higher mood over time I have found (at this time in my life and from a couple of years ago and continually since then I have learnt and relearnt and discovered different aspects of this process and I am not done yet...but I am well on the way) that I have to make time to 'listen to my emotions' which is deciding which emotions to allow in to me from the constant liquids arriving and available to me. Then to deliberately make myself vulnerable to explore them in whatever way is appropriate (can be by asking questions of them or of myself, can be by allowing them to slosh around, can be by trying to verbalise them to someone else or write about them, or possibly by using them as an inspiration for a random painting or drawing, but I find that less insightful as a method, though it does dispel the emotion I have chosen to sit with). In doing these activities fairly deliberately and regularly I am adapting better to everyday situations, I am asking better questions in this realm, I am understanding my own history better and finding healing and courage to face my demons and I am becoming more flexible as I get older, not less flexible, I am not solidifying internally in the way that many folk do because they get fossilised by stuff that has happened to them that they can't deal with, so they lose flexibility.

To answer your question. I think the true risk is therefore actually that 'you lose a part of yourself' - that particular trigger of a particular situation has always caused you to become tense, let's say and that tenseness has become familiar, it's become a 'go-to' state innerly which is actually familiar and comfortable to you **even if it is logically wrong and also inappropriate for today's situation**. The risk is the loss of that comfortable inner state and the certainty of being right inside, as in 'dinner parties always make me feel tense' for example. People defend these kinds of statements in many ways, but that is because they don't want to take the risk of inner change which risks losing a bit of what they are comfortable with, at least, that's how I see it. I'm not condemning anyone, mind you, because this kind of processing is downright hard work and to me it has felt like doing it and finding out how it works without a road map and in a world of ill defined terms populated by excitable emotional types who know how to do it themselves and know the benefits of it but who can be rather helpless as teachers and guides because if you can do something by instinct you can't teach anyone else in any systematic way. But if my explanations are any help to you I'd be interested to know how you get on and over time whether you (or indeed anyone else) wanted to add or refine them.
This was interesting. I appreciate the level of detail. I find the risk of looking like an idiot, or at least ignorant, is easily tolerated, at least in connection with subjects where I really am ignorant. The best way to learn is to admit I don't know and am trying to learn. The only shame is in wilfully remaining ignorant. Now a few more questions.

1. What do you see as the risk in allowing an unpleasant emotion to sit around while you see what you can learn from it? In what way are you vulnerable when you explore your emotions on your own (without confiding in anyone else)?

2. So your "mood" term deals strictly with the quantity of emotion you have let in, and does not reflect the quality (negative/positive, contentment, fear, excitement, shame, etc.)

3. What do you mean by facing demons? What are demons in this context? Can you give an example (hypothetical is fine).

4. I don't understand the reluctance you describe about "losing part of yourself". If it truly is something negative, like getting tense in certain settings, I would think someone would be glad to be rid of it, like outgrowing an allergy. On the other hand, what if you really don't like dinner parties, and almost invariably have a bad experience at them? Trying to pretend otherwise won't change the reality. That just seems to be a variety of the proverbial rose colored glasses.
 

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This was interesting. I appreciate the level of detail. I find the risk of looking like an idiot, or at least ignorant, is easily tolerated, at least in connection with subjects where I really am ignorant. The best way to learn is to admit I don't know and am trying to learn. The only shame is in wilfully remaining ignorant. Now a few more questions.

1. What do you see as the risk in allowing an unpleasant emotion to sit around while you see what you can learn from it? In what way are you vulnerable when you explore your emotions on your own (without confiding in anyone else)?

It seems easy to do this in theory but in practice the emotion leaks out, so those around me might say something minor but because I'm full of something negative I end up leaking something negative at them. Say I'm processing anger, well, I've learnt to cover that by ranting about the photocopier at work breaking down, for example, rather than going there on the original cause of the anger I am sitting with. So there is a leakage and that makes me more prone to showing a regular and wider variety of emotions to those I interact with. I have had to adapt to this. Interestingly one friend commented that it made me more authentic. I find it hard work, because I have to say stuff like 'yeah I'm having a rough day' a bit more. People are very understanding but it makes me feel less than the perfect person I want to be.

2. So your "mood" term deals strictly with the quantity of emotion you have let in, and does not reflect the quality (negative/positive, contentment, fear, excitement, shame, etc.)

That's my approximation of it, yes. But if there is an emotional boulder sitting around then I try to deal with it, maybe not immediately but I do plan to get to it in the next few days, generally deliberately. One pleasant side effect is that sometimes I do end up sitting with positive emotions too...again, try explaining that massive uncontrolled smile to the people on the bus!

3. What do you mean by facing demons? What are demons in this context? Can you give an example (hypothetical is fine).

Example might be fear, so fear of some particular situation or person or trigger phrase or something. In my thoughts that could be linked to a specific memory...and I need to sit with it and process it. It's not easy to decide to deliberately make myself innerly uncomfortable.

4. I don't understand the reluctance you describe about "losing part of yourself". If it truly is something negative, like getting tense in certain settings, I would think someone would be glad to be rid of it, like outgrowing an allergy. On the other hand, what if you really don't like dinner parties, and almost invariably have a bad experience at them? Trying to pretend otherwise won't change the reality. That just seems to be a variety of the proverbial rose colored glasses.

Yes, I am obviously glad to be rid of it in the first case, and in the second case it's trivial to agree with you. But as a real person I tell you life ain't as simple as just wanting to be rid of it and it is gone...I have to become someone new in that area...difficult to explain.

Example, and it may not be the best one since it is slightly hypothetical, but here goes. Say I am an introvert but I've noticed that I'd be better off in life in general if I could be more relaxed, chatty and outgoing at social events at work, specifically when I'm with people who are my work grade but intellectually boring to me, so I don't enjoy their company, I think them a bit empty headed or something. Losing my old self and gaining that new self means that maybe I will become something which I presently despise...and that's a barrier or an internal cost or loss in itself, even if I can see that change being of benefit and also reflecting more of the true me into the outside world.

It's hard to really explain it, to be honest. You'd have to try doing it and then maybe it would begin to make a bit more sense. Why not chuck an example of your own into this, a hypothetical one if you like and see whether you can figure out a small step of small risk to try it out?
 

Coriolis

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It seems easy to do this in theory but in practice the emotion leaks out, so those around me might say something minor but because I'm full of something negative I end up leaking something negative at them. Say I'm processing anger, well, I've learnt to cover that by ranting about the photocopier at work breaking down, for example, rather than going there on the original cause of the anger I am sitting with. So there is a leakage and that makes me more prone to showing a regular and wider variety of emotions to those I interact with. I have had to adapt to this. Interestingly one friend commented that it made me more authentic. I find it hard work, because I have to say stuff like 'yeah I'm having a rough day' a bit more. People are very understanding but it makes me feel less than the perfect person I want to be.
I try to avoid this sort of leakage as much as possible, and from what I can tell, do quite well at it. Definitely a learned skill, acquired at an early age. I don't do it to keep from looking imperfect, but simply to keep my emotional space to myself as a matter of privacy. I consider my emotions personal, and see no need to share most of them outside of my "inner circle". If they don't need to know about whatever caused the emotion, they don't need to know about the emotion itself.

That's my approximation of it, yes. But if there is an emotional boulder sitting around then I try to deal with it, maybe not immediately but I do plan to get to it in the next few days, generally deliberately. One pleasant side effect is that sometimes I do end up sitting with positive emotions too...again, try explaining that massive uncontrolled smile to the people on the bus!
How do you deal with these "emotional boulders"?

Example, and it may not be the best one since it is slightly hypothetical, but here goes. Say I am an introvert but I've noticed that I'd be better off in life in general if I could be more relaxed, chatty and outgoing at social events at work, specifically when I'm with people who are my work grade but intellectually boring to me, so I don't enjoy their company, I think them a bit empty headed or something. Losing my old self and gaining that new self means that maybe I will become something which I presently despise...and that's a barrier or an internal cost or loss in itself, even if I can see that change being of benefit and also reflecting more of the true me into the outside world.
This is a great example, because it goes to the root of some of my strongest reservations about all this. I am still trying to figure out what the benefit will be of doing something like what you describe here. What do I get out of chatting with people whose company I don't enjoy at an event I would prefer not to attend to begin with? For that matter, does it even do any good for anyone else (no need to be selfish here)? I have endured such situations in passing, e.g. to please my mother or not to disrupt a funeral or other family event, but that isn't the same as trying to integrate that "new self" into my existing self. Moreover, I can't see how doing so would "reflect more of the true me" in any way. It would be sacrificing the true me, and if I am going to do that, I want to make sure the benefit is worth the cost.

It's hard to really explain it, to be honest. You'd have to try doing it and then maybe it would begin to make a bit more sense. Why not chuck an example of your own into this, a hypothetical one if you like and see whether you can figure out a small step of small risk to try it out?
I would be happy to try this. In fact, I have been looking for this sort of nuts and bolts suggestion. I'm having a hard time thinking of an example, though. I'll post again when I come up with something.
 

Coriolis

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The talks are only a superficial gateway. ...the books are much better. I was very distant from myself when I first read her. It was enlightening. ...
I found Gifts of Imperfection in the library and am now reading it. I will post some thoughts when I am finished.

This is a very busy week for me, though, so I might not get around to any of this until the weekend.
 
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