How do people lie to themselves?

[Eilonwy]

Everyone lies to themselves. It's a standard coping mechanism and is actually useful for tucking stuff away until we have time to deal with it. If something is really wrong, however, lying to oneself becomes highly problematic. The same problems will arise over and over again and nothing seems to work, because our lies to ourselves lead us to "fix" the wrong problems.

What are specific mechanisms that people use to lie to themselves? I've outlined a couple elsewhere, but it's in a private blog that not everyone can access, and this needs to be a more general discussion with more people involved.

The two mechanisms I've outlined map to INFJ and ESTJ, more or less, but I think the typological tendencies aren't that specific. I suspect they really map to Ni and Si.

The Ni mechanism: Ni will elide the truth. Ni is always looking at things from different perspectives. Usually, this is an Occam's Razor approach: the simplest explanation is usually the best, so Ni changes perspectives until it finds the one that explains everything in the simplest terms. But sometimes instead of simplest, Ni looks for the "easiest to deal with" perspective, and then settles on that. As a perspective, it automatically admits certain kinds of information and excludes others. There is a huge amount of cognitive bias in this case that is difficult to unravel, because Ni (in this negative case) will tend to not consider the possibility that unpleasant truths might be true.

In Si mechanism is surprisingly more stark, in my experience. Si types tend to rewrite their memories. If something "should be true", then it is, never mind that it is completely 100% false. This can be quite formidable to deal with, because Si types have such wonderful memory for detail, they can tell elaborate stories and all the facts check out, except for the one or two important ones that can't be verified, and those two are completely different from, for example, your own memories of the same events. But because the Si type has all those other details, they sound a LOT more credible. Another problem here is that when an Si type does this, the memory is often literally rewritten. The possibility that they misremembered it is never considered: after all their memory is excellent. So the Si type truly believes the false memory, and hence believes the lies they make to themselves.

Those are the only mechanisms I've taken time to outline. I'm sure there are plenty of others, and that's what I'd like to explore. I'm sure there are an entire set of "lying to yourself" patterns encased in Enneagram types. I also suspect there might be addition patterns of lying to oneself based on Ti and Fi. My current hypothesis is that the extroverted functions (Te/Fe/Ne/Se) aren't involved in this, as lying to oneself is an entirely subjective process - to the point that actually having to deal with extroverted factors could foil the lie.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Oh, and a word to the wise: I don't want this in any way to turn into a bashing session of various types. I'm looking for introspection, here, not accusations or rants.

Thanks!

While Ni in the dom position might elide the truth, I think the real problem is when tertiary Ti/Fi locks in a cognitive feeling of rightness/beauty/elegance/understanding. Then the lie makes so much sense that it's very difficult to let it go. It's too beautiful and elegant, it fits the known "facts" so well, that its rightness is difficult for the self to question. Ni-dom believes it understands and then wants to convey that understanding to others so that we're all on the same page.

To give you a benign example: it's not a lie, but your use of the analogy of dance can illustrate how the mechanism might work. It's a beautiful analogy and explains so many concepts so well in easy to visualize terms. I'm assuming it feels right/beautiful/elegant to you and provides you with a way to help others understand the concepts you're trying to convey.

/my own Ni-Ti theory that feels elegant to me

ETA: Oh, and here's another thing that I think causes issues for Ni-doms in this area: they then believe that their beautiful, elegant, and right understanding applies universally to everyone. So the lie is true for everyone and everyone else is just lying to themselves if they don't acknowledge this.

 

[uumlau]

While Ni in the dom position might elide the truth, I think the real problem is when tertiary Ti/Fi locks in a cognitive feeling of rightness/beauty/elegance/understanding. Then the lie makes so much sense that it's very difficult to let it go. It's too beautiful and elegant, it fits the known "facts" so well, that it's rightness is difficult for the self to question. Ni-dom believes it understands and then wants to convey that understanding to others so that we're all on the same page.

To give you a benign example: it's not a lie, but your use of the analogy of dance can illustrate how the mechanism might work. It's a beautiful analogy and explains so many concepts so well in easy to visualize terms. I'm assuming it feels right/beautiful/elegant to you and provides you with a way to help others understand the concepts you're trying to convey.

/my own Ni-Ti theory that feels elegant to me

ETA: Oh, and here's another thing that I think causes issues for Ni-doms in this area: they then believe that their beautiful, elegant, and right understanding applies universally to everyone. So the lie is true for everyone and everyone else is just lying to themselves if they don't acknowledge this.

Yes. That is why I believe that it is the introverted functions that play a role in lying to ourselves, not the extroverted functions. The extroverted functions are MUCH more likely to encounter a fact/truth that contradicts the lies we tell ourselves.

 

[Poki]

Yes. That is why I believe that it is the introverted functions that play a role in lying to ourselves, not the extroverted functions. The extroverted functions are MUCH more likely to encounter a fact/truth that contradicts the lies we tell ourselves.

Extroverted lie through shallowness and ignorance. I refuse to dig in further just because I am stubborn or i refuse to hear you even though you speak to me. Denial is a form of lying to yourself.

 

[MyCupOfTea]

With my dear dominant Fi lying to myself is just impossible to happen consciously. To me, Fi is all about being true to myself, that's what my identity is made of. Lying to myself would mean that I violate the very core of me and when it comes conscious it throws me into emotional turmoil. Those are the times when I realize that my ideal self and true self aren't matching the way I have let myself to believe.

When I think of it, I actually have this battle of illusional ideals and reality in me all the time. At the same time, I'm in love with my illusions (lies) and avoid digging that hole, but my desire to be honest with myself keeps pulling me to the opposite direction. I need the lies to feel inner peace but paradoxically those lies prevent me to ever fully reach that.

Don't know if this is something that other Fi users can relate or is it just me.

 

[uumlau]

With my dear dominant Fi lying to myself is just impossible to happen consciously. To me, Fi is all about being true to myself, that's what my identity is made of. Lying to myself would mean that I violate the very core of me and when it comes conscious it throws me into emotional turmoil. Those are the times when I realize that my ideal self and true self aren't matching the way I have let myself to believe.

When I think of it, I actually have this battle of illusional ideals and reality in me all the time. At the same time, I'm in love with my illusions (lies) and avoid digging that hole, but my desire to be honest with myself keeps pulling me to the opposite direction. I need the lies to feel inner peace but paradoxically those lies prevent me to ever fully reach that.

Don't know if this is something that other Fi users can relate or is it just me.

I think part of the Fi lying to oneself is the belief that one is being true to oneself. In other words, while it is possible to be true to yourself and feel good about being true to yourself, it is ALSO possible to want that feeling of being true to yourself so much that you fool yourself into thinking that you're being true to yourself when you aren't.

In INFPs, what I see is that the dichotomy between ideals and reality allows a lot of wiggle room for pretending to be true to yourself. The actual lie is rather interesting, and is also a common issue for type 4s. The INFP lie to yourself tends to be the belief that you assume that you know yourself well enough to be true to yourself when you really don't. Thus this "true self" can become whatever it needs to be in order for the INFP to pursue whatever wishes and ideals that intrigue him/her at the time.

The difficult part for INFPs, especially young INFPs, is that, no, you don't really know yourself well enough to be as true to yourself as you'd like to be.

 

[uumlau]

Another thought w/r to xNFPs in general. A lot of the "ideals" that I see NFPs hold, especially the young ones, are really just (sorry to say this!) knee-jerk reactions to a few particular strongly emotional events in their lives. To be clear, the emotion is valid, and the knee-jerk reaction is valid, too! But there's a third step that only the oldest NFPs would appear to follow through on: figuring out WHY the emotional event affected oneself so strongly. The feelings are obvious, but the reasons behind them are not, even to oneself.

Very often the ideals an NFP tries to live are in contradiction of these underlying true reasons that were their foundation.

 

[MyCupOfTea]

I think part of the Fi lying to oneself is the belief that one is being true to oneself. In other words, while it is possible to be true to yourself and feel good about being true to yourself, it is ALSO possible to want that feeling of being true to yourself so much that you fool yourself into thinking that you're being true to yourself when you aren't.

This is spot on.

In INFPs, what I see is that the dichotomy between ideals and reality allows a lot of wiggle room for pretending to be true to yourself. The actual lie is rather interesting, and is also a common issue for type 4s. The INFP lie to yourself tends to be the belief that you assume that you know yourself well enough to be true to yourself when you really don't. Thus this "true self" can become whatever it needs to be in order for the INFP to pursue whatever wishes and ideals that intrigue him/her at the time.

The difficult part for INFPs, especially young INFPs, is that, no, you don't really know yourself well enough to be as true to yourself as you'd like to be.

The bolded part is bothering me probably because there's truth in it. I need to digest it a while.

 

[uumlau]

The bolded part is bothering me probably because there's truth in it. I need to digest it a while.

Knowing yourself isn't an accomplishment, it's a process. There is always more to know, and always a need for correcting any errors that one discovers.

 

[MyCupOfTea]

Knowing yourself isn't an accomplishment, it's a process. There is always more to know, and always a need for correcting any errors that one discovers.

Thanks. I know... It's just this topic is so fascinating and it has made me swim in a little deeper waters than I first expected. And I mean it in a positive way.

 

[Poki]

People also dismiss what they don't want or like for what they do want or like using statements that are only half ass valid. Staunchly supporting it instead of opening their eyes and seeing the real world.

People lie about what matters via assumptions and refuse to believe otherwise. Like those people who say things like..."because you mispell things you are stupid" i have met the most intelligent back neck hill billy. He could fly around everyone in understanding, but no one could understand what he said, he didn't know the names of anything, and he couldn't spell worth a crap. He was so good though he could call in sick hungover and managers wouldn't batt an eye because when he did get in everything plus more would be fixed. Despite all this he worked with me on 30million to 120 million dollar machines and they pretty music h let him have free reign on what he did because he knew so much, just don't ask him what the pieces are called on the tool.

 

[Poki]

Entitlement

 

[Poki]

Rationalization is a HUGE way

 

[kyuuei]

I spent a lot of time analyzing where I went wrong with my worst relationship I'd ever had--and I finally had to chalk it up to him being a pathological liar.

He'd lie about things that didn't need lying about at all... Things like what he's allergic to.. or things like how he got into dancing. Things that NO ONE would care even a tiny teeny bit about he lied about. So you can imagine what an awesome, astounding, dedicated and hard-working guy that's been kicked down time and time again he painted himself to be. And he believed it. He wasn't deceiving me to get into a girl's pants... he believed all of this. Including stealing a story that happened to SOMEONE ELSE WE KNEW (a big-deal sort of story of the my-first-love-got-murdered variety) and displaying it as his own when we first met. That caused some drama. We broke up, and for a year everyone thought we broke up because I cheated on him... the reality was I broke it off because I couldn't stand it anymore and he cried a lot about it... then listened to some Limp Bizkit and got the fuck over it by creating a lie that didn't make him look bad. He later tried to be 'friends' with me again and say how much I made him grow... but honestly I didn't want anything to do with him good or bad.

Here's what I worked out based on my own observations:
- He was unhappy with life. He was pretty depressed.. I didn't know it then, but he definitely was looking back on it.
- He was unmotivated. He was, in every sense of the word, an herbivore.
- Here is where the key stuff comes in: He wanted other things to be true. About him. anything... He had delusions (typical of an anime nerd stereotype) of being grandiose, of being exciting, and of life being dramatic and played out in a different way than normal. He wanted all of that. He wanted to be quirky, and a lovable man that everyone wanted to be friends with.
- He didn't want to work for it. He didn't want to look inside himself, and slowly rip that old person a part, and deal with his depression, and realize he didn't need to have a seedy past and bad history to triumph over his problems.. and he didn't really want to be a GOOD friend to people.. he just wanted them to love him.
- So, he started with strangers. He had friends that have grown up around him his whole life.. he couldn't start there. So he started telling strangers these quirky, small things. And it felt good for him. So, so good. The pity people showed him when he said he was allergic to ALL FRUIT EVER and couldn't eat it. (He has a normal oral allergy that millions of people have, and he's potentially allergic to pineapple and doesn't like the sour-taste of oranges.) The way they marveled at him when he danced--he had a natural talent for it, and practiced it to boot, because dancing was a very charismatic way into peoples' lives.
- Eventually, his friends were going to find out things, so he'd maneuver it any number of ways liars usually do.. telling the lie-receiver to not tell anyone about x or y.. or twisting the story in such a way that it'd sound true to both parties. When it came to his family, there were stories about how awful his parents were that were easy enough to use to keep people from trusting/believing they are who they really were. They were not perfect parents, but he exploited that and turned them into monsters to distance other people from them. He planted seeds into peoples' minds about how/who people were before they met them in subtle ways. He wasn't a stupid man, and he could keep track and maintain things and be a step ahead of someone unsuspecting of just how deep these lies were being planted.. It was his full time job.
- In fact, he was so good at it, it was easy for him to keep track of it all. He could recreate stories based on what his friends told him they couldn't remember. He'd reshape their memories because he had a very particular way he wanted those stories to go from the past and human memory banks aren't accurate to begin with. I've talked to old-time friends of his where one person had an entirely different story than the other guy who wasn't hanging out with my ex after school stopped--and they were both there when this story went down.
- Eventually, like all liars, the truth sometimes butts its inconvenient head. During those times, he was faced with two options: believe the lies and stand by them, or crumble and tell the truth. He didn't want to go back to that past life--who would? He didn't feel depressed, he didn't feel unhappy (yet), he got what he wanted.. So, you believe in yourself. You believe in your lies. You serve them up on your own dish--because that's how you make things real for everyone--and you eat it.

Many of his friends fell away from him eventually.. our break up didn't start that revolution, it would have happened on its own, but I think it did accelerate it. The severe story that got re-told got out, and I thought the guy it happened to was going to destroy his face with fists that weigh what my ex weighed soaking wet. The cheating story got retold and played back to me, which got me annoyed and I'd tell them just a few of the many lies he told during the course of our relationship, which made his friends doubt what was going on. Some of the lies he told about friends got around to one another in conversations. It was going to happen all along, but I think I accelerated the process a bit.

He turned to a younger crowd for a while to get away from all of that. Dated a girl much younger than him, because older adults tend to not care if you're a good robot-style dancer as much. He floats from group of friends to group of friends and he has people who will always be somewhat loyal to him just because they all grew up together.. But I think the relationships that were once most important to him are no longer there because of his own handy work. I don't really feel sorry for the guy at all.. I have zero sympathy for a lack of testicular fortitude.. but when I found out the man I was dating for the last 4-5 months was a total and complete stranger and liar, I couldn't even be mad at him long-term. It was that sad of a situation. I was totally angry at first... but one year later? Going to war? He seemed like the pettiest of problems.. and I realized that I couldn't lie to myself and pretend it doesn't take two to tango. I dated the dude for like 2 months suspecting lies but not following my instincts. It didn't have to get as involved as it did, but I let myself get swept up. No sense in being angry at the pyramid scheme just because it got you, it's going to keep on truckin' along, pyramiding people while you can either be angry or realize you played the fool and take it for what it is.

It is in all of us to lie. It's an instinct that helps us survive. And it works. And we need it. I can't afford to tell my patients, as a nurse, I don't give a flying fuck about their shitty big toe hurting for the 5th time today because they aren't compliant with their meds because I have more important things to worry about today in particular... I lie to them, and tell them they mean everything to me and that I'm there for them no matter what (for exactly 12 hours). I don't tell the people that invited me to a big party that I hate their boyfriend and that's why I didn't go--I say I had prior engagements and move on with my life.
But when we lie when it's important, and it isn't just about surviving anymore? .. There's something going on in that person. There is some fear within themselves, that they cannot confront head on.

 

[violet_crown]

Anyone have any thoughts?

Oh, and a word to the wise: I don't want this in any way to turn into a bashing session of various types. I'm looking for introspection, here, not accusations or rants.

Thanks!

I think there was something to what [MENTION=22236]YUI[/MENTION] brought up regarding the relationship of self-deception and the inferior function. I'm not going to say the relationship is precisely as they stated it, but more along the lines of two things. I think people lie to themselves to protect the sacred cow ideals of the inferior, and I also think that things that pertain to the inferior--because of the anxiety that surrounds that function--will be indicative of where we have blindspots and shit can get a little weird in terms of how we handle items that fall under its auspices.

In this reading, an Ni-dom's "eliding" of (Se) facts is not so much a conscious manipulation as those kinds of facts are inherently slippery to the Ni-dom anyways, and there could be an unspoken belief that those same class of facts might be as elusive or subjective to others as they appear to the INJ, prompting them to play off that perceived mutual lapse.

This isn't to says that there isn't willfullness involved as well at times. A hoary catchphrase of many an ETJ is, "I'm not responsible for your emotional response to my actions." Now, if you buy the inferior Fi myth that "the feels ain't reals" to begin with (or if they are they're something to be controlled at all times and by all means), then this statement is not strictly speaking untrue at least from the perspective of internal coherence. To me as an ENTJ, while I can recognize the notion that we're all connected and our actions have impact and consequence--emotional and otherwise--on those around us is a factual statement, it lacks that sorta visceral truthiness. It's like if someone says that to me, it's like, "Oh yeah. That's right. Good one." It's almost like an ideal to aspire to rather than the way that I deep down believe that people actually live. Because living in the light of inferior function truths requires a certain amount of conscious effort, it's easy to turn a blind eye when you feel you've got other, more pressing things going on. It's not that you're lying to yourself, per se, it's that you were only halfway sold on the concept to begin with, and you're last in first out when shit gets real.