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Cognitive Dissonance

redacted

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I think you would like me to justify MBTI a priori.

My father liked to argue like that and had a very old book called, "First Principles".

And for him empirical evidence fell outside his argument.

You couldn't quote history at him because he would always argue a priori from first principles.

A priori gives a certain seductive certainty.

And it was this certainty that fed his vanity.

And whatever you feed, grows.

Dude what are you talking about? You're doing exactly what your father was doing. You're so vain that you aren't questioning your own beliefs -- "And it was this certainty that fed his vanity. And whatever you feed, grows."

A priori or a posteriori, who cares? I'd just like to hear you justify your dismissal of MBTI in any sense at all.

You keep dodging the question.
 

Mole

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I'd just like to hear you justify your dismissal of MBTI in any sense at all.

You keep dodging the question.

I reject MBTI on two grounds.

1. Any qualified psychometrician will tell you that MBTI is invalid and unreliable.

2. The person responsible for MBTI freely chose those who came very close to absolute evil.
 

ptgatsby

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I reject MBTI on two grounds.

1. Any qualified psychometrician will tell you that MBTI is invalid and unreliable.

2. The person responsible for MBTI freely chose those who came very close to absolute evil.

As much as I'm enjoying this, really, I have to point out that

#1 - Appeal to Authority
#2 - I have no idea what you are talking about, but know that it has nothing to do with the theory (neither Jung, or MB, nor CAPT)

First up, MBTI has been validated, within itself, as a testing instrument. It had loads of research behind it. You need tangible reasons on why it isn't valid.
 

Mole

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As much as I'm enjoying this, really, I have to point out that

#1 - Appeal to Authority
#2 - I have no idea what you are talking about, but know that it has nothing to do with the theory (neither Jung, or MB, nor CAPT)

First up, MBTI has been validated, within itself, as a testing instrument. It had loads of research behind it. You need tangible reasons on why it isn't valid.

How extraordinary!

All you have to do it pick up your telephone and ring the Psychology Department of your local University and ask to speak to a qualified psychometrician and simply ask them.

But you won't do this - you prefer the policy of don't ask, don't know.

And it is a matter of public record that Jung freely chose to be a NAZI collaborator.

It is plain MBTI is wrong and immoral. So the only interesting question is why is there a global cult of MBTI?

And the answer partly lies in history. As MBTI is part of the very wide spread and profitable New Age cult.

And an even more interesting question is, why are there so many lost people, so many spiritually homeless people, so attracted to a narcissistic cult?
 

Anja

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I usually just refer to this state as one of "bittersweetness" -- because I feel both at once, and since I define it as "one emotion," I have no need to toss either or both out. It hurts good and pleasures bad.

This statement could be considered irrational but it is very close to the essence of acceptance that sometimes things appear contradictory while still appearing to be true! A sort of fourth dimension of feeling.

"Bittersweet" is a perfect word for some feeling states I experience. Neither poles but a blend of apparent opposites - sweet and sour.
 

ptgatsby

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All you have to do it pick up your telephone and ring the Psychology Department of your local University and ask to speak to a qualified psychometrician and simply ask them.

MBTI is covered in many university courses now, FYI. They also administer the test in many cases.

But you won't do this - you prefer the policy of don't ask, don't know.

I suspect that I know... uhhh... policies? a bit better than you think.

And it is a matter of public record that Jung freely chose to be a NAZI collaborator.

Not relevant to the point at hand.

It is plain MBTI is wrong and immoral. So the only interesting question is why is there a global cult of MBTI?

By association, or is there a reason?

And the answer partly lies in history. As MBTI is part of the very wide spread and profitable New Age cult.

Unsubstantiated inference.

And an even more interesting question is, why are there so many lost people, so many spiritually homeless people, so attracted to a narcissistic cult?

Begging the question.
 

Mole

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MBTI is covered in many university courses now, FYI. They also administer the test in many cases.

You don't seem to be taking this matter seriously.

I know of no Psychology Department in any accredited University that says that MBTI is Valid and Reliable.

If you know of any such University, please give me their name and address, email and phone number, and I will personally contact them and report back to MBTI Central.

It does seem to me that the narcissistic expression of opinion is seen as equivalent to the ascertainable facts.

And narcissism seems inseparable from shallowness and boredom.
 

redacted

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So instead of thinking for yourself, you blindly trust "psychmetricians", whoever they are? That doesn't seem contrary to your entire philosophy to you?

You advocate blindly following some, and you tell us that our thinking for ourselves is invalid?

Huh?

This is the extreme case of cognitive dissonance. You would rather believe these people because it's easier than thinking for yourself. You've backed this view so much, and each time you do, it makes you less likely to see what you're actually doing.
 

Mole

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This statement could be considered irrational but it is very close to the essence of acceptance that sometimes things appear contradictory while still appearing to be true! A sort of fourth dimension of feeling.

"Bittersweet" is a perfect word for some feeling states I experience. Neither poles but a blend of apparent opposites - sweet and sour.

Unfortunately this is the easy way out.

In a contradiction, both statements can be false, or one or the other true and the other false, but both statements cannot be true at the same time.

So you are taking a metaphor which implies or says that both parts of a contradiction can be true at the same time.

This is the kind of pseudo thinking that makes Romanticism, the New Age and MBTI possible.

Of course the advantage of pseudo thinking is that it makes you feel good and it facilitates the conning of others - while it manages to avoid the empirical facts.

And what is amazing is that pseudo thinking is presented with a straight face.

But I guess when you can fake sincerity, you've got is made.
 

Mole

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So instead of thinking for yourself, you blindly trust "psychmetricians", whoever they are? That doesn't seem contrary to your entire philosophy to you?

You advocate blindly following some, and you tell us that our thinking for ourselves is invalid?

Huh?

This is the extreme case of cognitive dissonance. You would rather believe these people because it's easier than thinking for yourself. You've backed this view so much, and each time you do, it makes you less likely to see what you're actually doing.

My dear Dissonance,

This is silly.

I trust qualified Psychometricians in the same way I trust qualified Astronomers.

I am not a qualifed Psychometrician nor a qualified Astronomer, but when every Astronomer tells me that astrology has no truth value, I read their article to see if I am persuaded by their empirical evidence and logic.

And when every qualified Psychometrican tells me that MBTI is neither Valid nor Reliable, I read their articles to see if I am persuaded by their empirical evidence and logic.

I certainly do not rely on the cult of astrology to tell me whether it is true, any more than I rely on the cult of MBTI to tell me it is true.

I seek corroborative evidence - and there is none.
 

Mole

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But look, the title of this thread is Cognitive Dissonance.

So we can reasonably do two things - we can talk about cognitive dissonance or we can demonstrate cognitive dissonance.

I am demonstrating cognitive dissonance.

And naturally this causes actual cognitive dissonance in your mind - and cognitive dissonance is mentally painful - so the temptation is to blame me.

This is quite natural but of course cheap.

It is the cognitive dissonance, not I, that is causing your mental pain.

And your pain is trying to tell you something.

It is telling you not to do something.

Pain, even mental pain, is a warning that something is wrong.
 

Anja

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Unfortunately this is the easy way out.

In a contradiction, both statements can be false, or one or the other true and the other false, but both statements cannot be true at the same time.

So you are taking a metaphor which implies or says that both parts of a contradiction can be true at the same time.

This is the kind of pseudo thinking that makes Romanticism, the New Age and MBTI possible.

Of course the advantage of pseudo thinking is that it makes you feel good and it facilitates the conning of others - while it manages to avoid the empirical facts.

And what is amazing is that pseudo thinking is presented with a straight face.

But I guess when you can fake sincerity, you've got is made.


Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's odd to me that someone with well-developed thinking skills can't comprehend it. So there we have it, and "ne'er the twain shall meet."

You don't really think faking sincerity is possible do you?
 

Mole

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You don't really think faking sincerity is possible do you?

This is a saying within the United States of America.

And it is a pregnant saying for the US makes the distinction between fakery and sincerity.

In the US it is compliment to be called sincere and an insult to be called a fake.

And the US is a constant struggle beween fakery and the sincere - and fakery often wins - and phoniness has been raised to a high art.

So everyone tries to appear sincere in the eyes of others but there is the constant, ever present, temptation to fake it for personal advantage.

And this temptation is so common that it has given rise to the truism or saying, "In America when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made".
 

Xander

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Victor, would it surprise you to learn that I do know of someone who uses the MBTI and is qualified as a psychologist. This person is self employed and has a good reputation. I have met some of the people he has "handled" in his time and all of them, without exception, support his use of the MBTI.

Now either he's great at persuading people or there's something to this MBTI thing. So it can't be validated by current thinking in psychometry... so what? After you move from observation all patterns become prescriptive instead of descriptive anyway.. why is the MBTI any different?
 

Mole

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Victor, would it surprise you to learn that I do know of someone who uses the MBTI and is qualified as a psychologist. This person is self employed and has a good reputation. I have met some of the people he has "handled" in his time and all of them, without exception, support his use of the MBTI.

Now either he's great at persuading people or there's something to this MBTI thing. So it can't be validated by current thinking in psychometry... so what? After you move from observation all patterns become prescriptive instead of descriptive anyway.. why is the MBTI any different?

Because MBTI is global. It is used by many, many people in many different circumstances.

It is not as big as astrology but it is moving in that direction.

And just as we ask Astronomers whether there is any truth value in astrology, we ask is there any truth value in MBTI.

But MBTI looks just like a cult. It has its own jargon. It has its own Guru. It is impervious to evidence.

And cults are in a cleft stick. As the evidence piles up against them, they answer it with nastiness. And sometimes it can get very nasty.

But the worst of it is that MBTI meets an underlying need. It meets the needs of those who are lost and are trying to find themselves and each other.

And it is this need that makes us gullible.

But the really awful thing about MBTI is that once we have been taken in, once our intellectual integrity has been corrupted, we seek to corrupt others.
 

Jack Flak

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It's valid because with it, some of us are better at:

Understanding people,

and as a result of this understanding, better at accepting intrinsic personality differences,

and as a result of recognizing and accepting differences, better at communicating with people than if we used the same method with every person.
 

Jack Flak

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Because MBTI is global....

It is not as big as astrology but it is moving in that direction...

But the really awful thing about MBTI is that once we have been taken in, once our intellectual integrity has been corrupted, we seek to corrupt others.
Victor, I'm about the last person on Earth who's going to believe some hokum crap because it makes me feel good to do so. Astrology is exactly that, and I physically laugh at people when they tell me it has merit in person.

MBTI is not equitable, because if done the way I think is proper, it's based on observable behavior.

I do agree with you that it is used as a crutch by the emotionally needy, but so are thousands of other things in life.
 

Mole

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It's valid because with it, some of us are better at:

Understanding people,

and as a result of this understanding, better at accepting intrinsic personality differences,

and as a result of recognizing and accepting differences, better at communicating with people than if we used the same method with every person.

Sure, and all these are worthwhile things to do.

And you could say the same thing for astrology.

But I know and probably you know that no Astronomer believes in astrology. But this doesn't stop astrology for being useful in understanding oneself and others.

But when you look into it, astrology only looks as though it is useful in understanding.

Here is a simple demonstration of astrology -

YouTube - James Randi on Astrology

and it demonstrates astrology is a confidence trick. The same test with the same results could be applied to MBTI.

And a very long term and comprehensive study has been recently published on astrology and showed it had no truth value at all. But every women's magazine has between one and five pages of astrology and many newspapers have an astrology section.

MBTI, like astrology, gives the appearance of being helpful because it produces false positives.

But what is important to keep in mind as you read this thread called Cognitive Dissonance, is that not only is it about cognitive dissonance, it demonstrates cognitive dissonance in regard to, what else, MBTI.
 

Xander

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Victor,

Cognative dissonance in reference to the MBTI as you're quoting it doesn't really work. Only when people decide to use the MBTI system as a system of rules and boxes does it then not compare to what we know is true. Used as suggestions and as a framework to compare experiences to it does work quite well and observably so.

Do you hold the colour wheel in equal contempt as the MBTI? Do you really think that what you see as yellow is yellow or is that merely an agreed standard? Should we now persue all those who claim to see yellow and re-educate them to prevent the spreading of this mental decay?
 

Jack Flak

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...and it demonstrates astrology is a confidence trick. The same test with the same results could be applied to MBTI.

And a very long term and comprehensive study has been recently published on astrology and showed it had no truth value at all. But every women's magazine has between one and five pages of astrology and many newspapers have an astrology section.

MBTI, like astrology, gives the appearance of being helpful because it produces false positives.
I think we agree on the fundamentals more than is obvious. Perhaps you fail to notice or admit that there are different ways of handling the 16-type systems.

If you've read many of my posts here, for example, you would be aware that I do not approve of the way...probably most people use 16-type and especially MBTI itself.

When people who fail to perceive what I see as the true nature of a system nevertheless adopt it, spread it, and preach their understanding of it, it irritates me to no end.
 
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