the belief in an afterlife is required in old age for mental health

[GarrotTheThief]

If you manage to shed the ego, then I don't see why belief in an afterlife would matter.

Something will continue on after you, even if it is not "you". "You" are a fleeting thing, which changes from moment to moment. Just a genetic code, just a complex brain structure. Let go of yourself, and live for what is greater than anything you are. Your impending doom will mean nothing if you are living in the correct way.

Perhaps we are indeed something eternal, that somehow a spark of luminous soul material has accumulated and taken form in us and this will survive. Sounds odd.

perhaps that thought is egoic in itself. Just playing devils advocate here, but the ego is simply awareness...not good or bad in itself.

When the ego is inflated...we believe we are aware of more than we know. Since we do not know if there is life after death or if it is part of the egoic embryo, then it would be as much inflation to say that we should let go of it as it would be to say that a belief in the afterlife is required - which is what i said, I'm not denying it...but not necessarily what I believe...



But in truth...I know not once person who has done one miracle without such a belief, yet I know thousands who have with it. So it is not my lack of awareness that brings me to such a conclusion, in conjunction with Jungs findings, and recent findings in neurology involving belief in afterlife, but the fact that I have bared witness to it.

 

[Pionart]

perhaps that thought is egoic in itself. Just playing devils advocate here, but the ego is simply awareness...not good or bad in itself.

When the ego is inflated...we believe we are aware of more than we know. Since we do not know if there is life after death or if it is part of the egoic embryo, then it would be as much inflation to say that we should let go of it as it would be to say that a belief in the afterlife is required - which is what i said, I'm not denying it...but not necessarily what I believe...



But in truth...I know not once person who has done one miracle without such a belief, yet I know thousands who have with it. So it is not my lack of awareness that brings me to such a conclusion, in conjunction with Jungs findings, and recent findings in neurology involving belief in afterlife, but the fact that I have bared witness to it.

Well, if ego is simply awareness then I mustn't be talking about ego.

But there is something about a person that makes them totally attached to their self. They need an identity that continues. Logically, there is no difference between yourself and a person who is, in this moment, made to be an exact copy of yourself. But who would allow themselves to perish even with the knowledge that an exact copy would live on? It's this quasi-solipsism that I am arguing against, which says that if the individual dies, then the whole world may as well die with it.

Now, I certainly see why an individual views themself in this way. Since all something can experience is itself, it will naturally place importance on wherever the most obviously intense experience lies. Everything values itself to the exclusion of everything else, except insofar as everything else becomes a part of itself. Tricks can be played, such as programming a thing to be effected in correlation with its effect on a larger system, thus self-focus becomes synchronous with focus on something larger than self. This is how the individual was formed. It is genetic programming. Really, a thing acts in accordance with the forces which act on it in the present moment. However, evolution made it so that the forces which act on an individual tend to be those which keep the organism alive. Hence we wish to stay alive.

Belief in life after death is like a trick played on this evolutionary mechanism. The forces want to keep you alive. So you convince them that, hey, we continue living even after we die. And then they stop worrying.

The alternative that I proposed would be moving past the code which tells the individual to survive. Fight against to remove, or play a trick to redirect. May as well make use of what is already there right, instead of outright opposing it?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The way a belief in the afterlife affect a personality depends on that personality's other beliefs. It is not an on/off switch that anyone can turn on and off in their head. If you see no reason to believe in an afterlife, then forcing this belief will create cognitive dissonance, and will not be good for your mentality.

Nobody is ever going to convince me of an afterlife.

I actually find the idea that I'm made from stars to be comforting in a way... especially the idea that when I die I will go back into the universe

Same. I don't have a problem with it.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

Jung had a mental breakdown in his late 30's. I think I'll decide what is best for me.

:-D :-D :-D

I believe that you can be a happy man at least till the age of 50 if you are healthy, you can keep a good standard of life, you are physically OK, and you have no fear of death. I think that believing in afterlife is actually a tool for some kind of people to get rid of fear of death, but it is possible to do so in other ways without lying yourself.

 

[Patrick]

I think that believing in afterlife is actually a tool for some kind of people to get rid of fear of death, but it is possible to do so in other ways without lying yourself.

Lying to yourself? About what? If you believe there's an afterlife, you're being truthful to yourself when you say you believe that.

Lying to yourself would mean saying you don't believe in an afterlife when you really do--or vice versa.

As to the objective fact of there being an afterlife or not--well, that's another matter entirely. If you were somehow absolutely certain of that fact, then beliefs would be irrelevant. Is anybody here absolutely certain that there is or is not an afterlife? If so, how did you acquire that certainty? Because I'd like to have it too.

 

[Lark]

I'll be honest with you I live in doubt but hope of an afterlife, although I've read some philosophical thinking about it which suggests not an after life but another life, like reincarnation or transmigration of the soul but without memories, in a persuasive way. In the later case the idea is why worry about the state following your demise, you dont recall the possible millenia you existed before you were alive.

I think there are alternatives which can permit mental health too, such as believing you're part of a historical process, the rise and fall of civilisations, part of a world spirit, over soul, life force, all in a materialist and non-metaphysical sense. Or even simply refusing to think much about it at all and keeping busy with other things.

 

[Lark]

:-D :-D :-D

I believe that you can be a happy man at least till the age of 50 if you are healthy, you can keep a good standard of life, you are physically OK, and you have no fear of death. I think that believing in afterlife is actually a tool for some kind of people to get rid of fear of death, but it is possible to do so in other ways without lying yourself.

Its not proven to me to be a lie and its kind of difficult to do so, at least to my satisfaction.

Although its curious to me that either belief in or fore knowledge of an afterlife or eternal life would get rid of the fear of death, for me it would be as terrifying a prospect whether those other things, ie belief or knowledge, were possessed or not.

There is the possibility that an after life existence would be so different from the present life that it would not deserve the label life at all, the idea of perpetual sleep for instance is not that comforting at times as sleep can be disturbed and disturbing and pales in comparison with life really when it is recognised as sleep.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

Lying to yourself? About what? If you believe there's an afterlife, you're being truthful to yourself when you say you believe that.

Lying to yourself would mean saying you don't believe in an afterlife when you really do--or vice versa.

As to the objective fact of there being an afterlife or not--well, that's another matter entirely. If you were somehow absolutely certain of that fact, then beliefs would be irrelevant. Is anybody here absolutely certain that there is or is not an afterlife? If so, how did you acquire that certainty? Because I'd like to have it too.

I let everyone to decide what is true, false, good or bad. I would keep my truths near to reality.

Afterlife is something we know nothing about. It may be real, it may be a fairy tale, I don't know. At the same time we know nothing about something that is related to both afterlife and reality to form at least a subtle connection between the two. When something has so zero or nearly zero relationship with reality then believing anything is really pointless in my opinion. Believing in something in such cases is bending one's own reality. When someone places his/her own truths outside reality it smells cheesy for me, but I'm OK with that as long as I don't have to deal with that.

Believing and assuming is OK for me too when it has enough base in reality. For example when you assume a choice to be the best in a given situation based on your past experience. Believing in afterlife, gods, and similar things is not my table for the reasons I mentioned.

Generally when I deal with a hypothesis that has nearly zero real basis then my attitude is usually: "Maybe, but I don't care and I really don't have time for this...". Someone else will solve it and till then I live my life, *this life*. If there is another one then I will live that with the same attitude.

Its not proven to me to be a lie and its kind of difficult to do so, at least to my satisfaction.

Although its curious to me that either belief in or fore knowledge of an afterlife or eternal life would get rid of the fear of death, for me it would be as terrifying a prospect whether those other things, ie belief or knowledge, were possessed or not.

There is the possibility that an after life existence would be so different from the present life that it would not deserve the label life at all, the idea of perpetual sleep for instance is not that comforting at times as sleep can be disturbed and disturbing and pales in comparison with life really when it is recognised as sleep.

Insanely believing something so unreal may help with fear of death, but it is not the good solution. If there would be afterlife that would mean that dying has not so huge impact on your existence. It is much easier to befriend the thought of being "immortal" than facing reality in which everything ends and dies at some point, including humans. Accepting reality and using the available resources cleverly is the winner strategy regardless of the existence of an afterlife. Accepting reality makes your life much easier in many situations: dying parents, ending relationships, etc... This is reality and one can not escape. Accept it and live for the good times.

 

[Chrysanthea]

Pfft, nonsense! All that does is make you look forward to the future instead of fully enjoying the present moment. One just needs to accept his possible fate of not existing after death so that he may train himself to focus on being happy while he remains alive. Even if you're religious and believe in Heaven... I think this is an unhealthy belief to hold, even if it may be true. I find solace in the idea of how nothing ever dies, but only returns to the Earth to be of use again in a different form. Though If I were dirt, I'd probably much more afraid of becoming human than vice versa.

Oh, and if you need blasphemous beliefs in order to keep sane... then you might as well just end your life now. (Not being rude here, but just some friendly advice. Something I would do.)

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

... All that does is make you look forward to the future instead of fully enjoying the present moment...

*to the future that may not exist*

 

[Patrick]

I let everyone to decide what is true, false, good or bad. I would keep my truths near to reality.

Afterlife is something we know nothing about. It may be real, it may be a fairy tale, I don't know. At the same time we know nothing about something that is related to both afterlife and reality to form at least a subtle connection between the two. When something has so zero or nearly zero relationship with reality then believing anything is really pointless in my opinion.

IMO, reality does figure into it. Part of my reality (and yours is similar, I'll bet) is that I'm a conscious being. I think, I dream, I feel, I experience things, I gather knowledge through senses and intuition. Being conscious and doing all those things is what comprises my reality. It's what I might call being alive.

Now, part of what I'm conscious of is that my physical body will someday die. I don't know that with any more certainty than I know anything else, but it appears to be common knowledge, and I accept it. I've seen corpses, and that counts as evidence for me. Anyhow, I'm sure you'll agree that human bodies cease to function at some point.

What I don't know, one way or the other, is whether I will continue to function as a conscious being after my physical body dies. It's difficult for me to even imagine that consciousness would ever end. Even when I go to sleep at night, I dream, and there's consciousness in that too. If I'm sedated for some medical procedure, I may later have no memory of what happened, but that doesn't mean I wasn't conscious of it, in some way, at the time.

So, as I go through life, I'm always conscious. When I go to sleep at night, my consciousness shifts, but it doesn't cease. When my body dies, am I certain that consciousness will then cease? No--not at all. It might very well continue. I may go on being aware--thinking, feeling, dreaming, experiencing things--as a disembodied entity (what some religions call the Soul).

For me, there's no wild imagining beyond reality involved. In my reality I am Soul right here and now; I am a Soul incarnated in a physical body. As Soul, I am conscious--I see and hear and experience things. When I'm awake, I do that mostly through my physical body, but when I'm asleep I may be doing it apart from my body. It's conceivable that I might learn to consciously leave my body while alive; and it's certain that I'll leave it when the body dies.

Have I lost you somewhere? If so, it's because you believe you are your body. That's not a certainty, nor an irrefutable bit of reality; it's just your belief--and a false one, IMO.

Yet, you experience presumably the same consciousness as I do--you dream and feel and think and see and hear and experience all kinds of things. The only question is whether that will continue after our bodies cease to function. I believe it will, because I believe my body is just something I have, not something I am.

Each of us has a choice--to identify with our consciousness or to identify with our body. Both consciousness and body are aspects of reality. So, even if we stick to dealing only with reality, we still have to address the question of how closely and permanently connected body and consciousness are.

Thus, "belief in an afterlife" really just means believing that individual consciousness does not cease when the body dies.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

Have I lost you somewhere? If so, it's because you believe you are your body. That's not a certainty, nor an irrefutable bit of reality; it's just your belief--and a false one, IMO.

You got it right, I'm a body and I'm happy with that! You lost me where you started mixing the concept of consciousness with being a soul that is in the same category for me as afterlife. The first thing that came to my mind is people becoming incapable in various weird ways in case of head/brain injuries - some of these abnormalities shouldn't happen if it's a soul that gives your consciousness that controls your body. The same is true about chemicals/narcotics that can change consciousness in weird ways. I'll accept the fact that some people like the idea of afterlife and I draw the line there for myself.

 

[á´…eparted]

Have I lost you somewhere? If so, it's because you believe you are your body. That's not a certainty, nor an irrefutable bit of reality; it's just your belief--and a false one, IMO.

It's not a belief. There is nothing to "believe" in. Your body is your body, end of story. There is no evidence of anything beyond that whatsoever.

 

[Patrick]

It's not a belief. There is nothing to "believe" in. Your body is your body, end of story. There is no evidence of anything beyond that whatsoever.

There are countless near-death experiences you could research if you'd a mind to. Popular today, for example, is Eben Alexander.

There's obviously never going to be any physical proof of something nonphysical. That's an absurdity. But it's still a choice whether to believe only physical things are real, or to believe there are (or may be) also nonphysical things that are part of reality.

My thoughts and dreams and feelings are not physical, but they're part of my reality.

To identify oneself entirely as a physical body is, IMHO, very sad and self-limiting. But each to their own.

 

[Evee]

It's not a belief. There is nothing to "believe" in. Your body is your body, end of story. There is no evidence of anything beyond that whatsoever.

We are 'bodily' but we are not 'bodies'. What we are is more than that.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

We are 'bodily' but we are not 'bodies'. What we are is more than that.

We're affected by the emotional states of others in our community in a complex web of interactions.

 

[prplchknz]

i think its worse to believe depending on what you believe

source: experience

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

OP, rubbish

 

[Lark]

I let everyone to decide what is true, false, good or bad. I would keep my truths near to reality.

People are entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts. Are you suggesting that my view is unreal?

Afterlife is something we know nothing about. It may be real, it may be a fairy tale, I don't know. At the same time we know nothing about something that is related to both afterlife and reality to form at least a subtle connection between the two. When something has so zero or nearly zero relationship with reality then believing anything is really pointless in my opinion. Believing in something in such cases is bending one's own reality. When someone places his/her own truths outside reality it smells cheesy for me, but I'm OK with that as long as I don't have to deal with that.

I dont consider it to be bending reality, I'm not sure what's meant by that, although I would say that I could not be satisfied with the reductive postivistic or empirical idea of life you possess. Its your funeral though, as they say.

Believing and assuming is OK for me too when it has enough base in reality. For example when you assume a choice to be the best in a given situation based on your past experience. Believing in afterlife, gods, and similar things is not my table for the reasons I mentioned.

I presume if your experience is limited to that of your years of life, context and circumstances you would not hold it universally valid. I could see a psychopath whose experience to date led them to believe that torture, killing and the objectification of others was fine being pleased with the moral relativism you're holding to be valid.

Generally when I deal with a hypothesis that has nearly zero real basis then my attitude is usually: "Maybe, but I don't care and I really don't have time for this...". Someone else will solve it and till then I live my life, *this life*. If there is another one then I will live that with the same attitude.

I would not find what you are describing to be a satisfactory way of life, its settling a question by never asking it or never speaking of it again, which is of course one way of dealing with any question. It may work for you, maybe for your entire life but I doubt the majority of humanity, for the majority of human history, would be in agreement. Not suggesting that mere majoritarianism validates a thing but if you are searching for universally valid ideas it is a significant correlate to consider.

Insanely believing something so unreal may help with fear of death, but it is not the good solution.

I suspect that you're just using the word "insanely" here as a prejorative term, that is a poor form of reasoning I'm afraid, throughout history people have labelled things insane when what they meant was it merely was deviant from their own norms or something they rejected while wishing to give this the veneer of a universal truth. A great deal of time has been spent trying to rigorously root that out of disciplines like psychology, sometimes disposing of ideas along the way which deserved more careful consideration in a "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" style, but it would seem that its not something atheists feel strongly enough about to refrain from doing.

Like I've said before the existence of an afterlife in the reckoning of most metaphysics, whether religious or philosophical or other, does not correspond directly to a fear of death, even with those that it arguably does it is not an exclusive matter of a link between the two. If you honestly scrutinize the scriptures and history of any of those traditions you will struggle to discover a single individual who embarks upon their thinking with a "forsooth I am muchly terrified by the prospect of my demise".

If there would be afterlife that would mean that dying has not so huge impact on your existence.

I fail to see why this should be so, you have not demonstrated why this should be so with that stand alone statement.

It is much easier to befriend the thought of being "immortal" than facing reality in which everything ends and dies at some point, including humans. Accepting reality and using the available resources cleverly is the winner strategy regardless of the existence of an afterlife. Accepting reality makes your life much easier in many situations: dying parents, ending relationships, etc... This is reality and one can not escape. Accept it and live for the good times.

I'm not going to embrace nihilism and I've heard much better worked out arguments for doing so than this one.

Although you hold to your own opinion as reality with such certainty I dont really see any point in carrying on a discussion, all I would say is that there's lot more you could learn and much more in the way of alternative thinking available to you should you choose to interest yourself in it and enrich your life as a consequence. The choice is your own. The ages have bequeathed much in this respect but if you're happy with the musings of contemporaries then that's grand. Whatever works for you.

 

[Lark]

Pfft, nonsense!

By jove! What intellect! What pose! What persuasive ability!

You truly have mastered the art of discussion.

All that does is make you look forward to the future instead of fully enjoying the present moment. One just needs to accept his possible fate of not existing after death so that he may train himself to focus on being happy while he remains alive. Even if you're religious and believe in Heaven... I think this is an unhealthy belief to hold, even if it may be true. I find solace in the idea of how nothing ever dies, but only returns to the Earth to be of use again in a different form. Though If I were dirt, I'd probably much more afraid of becoming human than vice versa.

Which is of course the cornerstone, nay foundation stone, of the entirety of western civilisation. How bold of you to decide you can forego it, will you do so alone or does everyone else have to be persuaded of the point?

The most radical thing Jesus ever did, before proclaiming any of this views on an afterlife as a state of existence other than our present one, was proclaim "the world to come", as others had before him, the bold idea that there is a future apart from the present and the past, a different and a better one at that.

Its also the radical idea at the heart of any conception of "progress" or even simply those who wish to live with the rights of future generations and environmental sustainability in mind.

I'm not inclined to believe any of the wackier philosophies, such as Spengler's Decline of The West or Nietzsche's eternal recurrence or conspiracies about the conscious or unconscious reasserting of gnosticism or any of the other cults which lost the hegemonic battles with Christianity back in ancient rome, but I can see how they arose in the first place with all the "power of now" thinking.

It does not enamor me in the slightest, if any individual, society or civilisation has prospered it has been precisely because it can defer gratification, the "everything now" thinking is not life affirming but life destroying, its the alcoholic at the bar who spends the heating or electric money on one more drink while the good times are rolling and not the individual who lives life to the full but possesses no terror of death.

Oh, and if you need blasphemous beliefs in order to keep sane... then you might as well just end your life now. (Not being rude here, but just some friendly advice. Something I would do.)

I'm not sure you know the meaning of blasphemy or maybe sanity either given that you'd recommend suicide to anyone.