Male F, Female T

[Frosty]

Do you think that it is harder to be a male F in a society where men are stereotyped as alligning more with thinking traits. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a female T in a country where women are supposed to naturally be more feeling oriented. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a male F or a female T?

Are male Fs less expressive with their feelings than their female counterparts because of societal expectations? Are female Ts more likely to act more nurturing and emotional than male Ts because that is what is expected of them?

 

[Red Herring]

Do you think that it is harder to be a male F in a society where men are stereotyped as alligning more with thinking traits. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a female T in a country where women are supposed to naturally be more feeling oriented. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a male F or a female T?

I would say that women have a somewhat broader spectrum of options at their disposal today than men. A woman showing "masculine" traits is at least showing traits that are mostly considered positive, a man showing "feminine" traits is showing traits that are often considered inferior. That is unfair towards F men and yet another reason why both genders benefit from a move to more equality and flexibility.

That doesn't mean that breaking stereotypes is always a walk in the park for T women.

Are male Fs less expressive with their feelings than their female counterparts because of societal expectations? Are female Ts more likely to act more nurturing and emotional than male Ts because that is what is expected of them?

Probably yes to both. Upbringing and social expectations do play a considerable role. There will of course always be exceptions.

 

[BadOctopus]

I would guess it's probably harder for F men than T women. Men are expected by society to be tough and stoic, and any man who shows visible emotions (at least, the softer emotions) is thought of as "unmanly". T women are branded as "ice queens", but I don't think there's as much negative stigma around that.

Gender stereotypes in general are exasperating.

 

[Yama]

I agree with everything [MENTION=10251]redherring[/MENTION] and [MENTION=23115]BadOctopus[/MENTION] have stated. Gender stereotypes are toxic to male F types. Feeling is seen by our society as "feminine" and being "feminine" is being "weak", so Feeling males who use their natural dom/aux functions are seen as "weak". It's a bit better for women Ts, because being a T is considered "strong" and "masculine" which is okay, but even then, they might get criticized for not being "feminine" or "womanly" enough.

Nobody can ever win.

 

[Qlip]

It's a strange place to be, being a feeler, and a male, that's for sure. I took on a lot of things that I had zero interest in, just because I am a man. Being sole supporter, mowing the lawn, grilling, home improvement, grunting, etc. I found value in some of it, like building things and self sufficiency, others I felt utterly disconnected to, like being a financial and rational bulwark. It all ended up being a bit too much for me.

I definitely have ended up with some serious Te skills, level of competency, and pragmatism that I feel that female ENFP's aren't pressured to cultivate, which is a shame in itself.

I guess I can't really compare my experience to a female thinker's in society, except I feel commonality in the imposition of gender roles. Even though 'rationality' is considered more of a positive trait than being 'emotional', I would imagine that for a woman, that path is nearly as thorny than just being what you're expected to be. Having a tougher time is not a prize that I care to fight for.

 

[violet_crown]

Let's not pit misery against misery when (as we all know) everything is terrible for pretty much everyone almost all of the time.

 

[chubber]

Let's not pit misery against misery when (as we all know) everything is terrible for pretty much everyone almost all of the time.

No it's not, I'm as cheery as can be

 

[Cellmold]

Let's not pit misery against misery when (as we all know) everything is terrible for pretty much everyone almost all of the time.

My misery is more misery than yours!

*wins invisible social prize on the 'I have it worse' one upsman scale!*

 

[tinker683]

Do you think that it is harder to be a male F in a society where men are stereotyped as alligning more with thinking traits. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a female T in a country where women are supposed to naturally be more feeling oriented. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a male F or a female T?

I can't speak for Female T's, but as a male F...it has its moments. My female partners seem to appreciate my "F'ness" as it were, but other males I end up inevitably having an conciliatory relationship with. I guess I give off a vibe of being really easy to talk too so all my guy friends seem to come to me when they're having emotional issues. I'm not sure why, but there it is.

As for "society", some of it I think is age but I'm old enough now (early 30's) where I just don't really care. I get the occasional odd look when I go see a rom-com/chick flick by myself at a movie theater or something like that but I generally conduct myself as most men are expected too so I generally don't run into problems. I imagine that has to do with me being an SJ though more than anything else.

Are male Fs less expressive with their feelings than their female counterparts because of societal expectations? Are female Ts more likely to act more nurturing and emotional than male Ts because that is what is expected of them?

As a male F, it's a mixed bag. My INxP-ex told me I was very restrained with my emotions (an odd commentary coming from someone as emotionally constipated as she was) while my current INFx (playfully) makes fun of me for how cheesy I can be.

I think I'm fine, personally.

 

[Totenkindly]

I would guess it's probably harder for F men than T women. Men are expected by society to be tough and stoic, and any man who shows visible emotions (at least, the softer emotions) is thought of as "unmanly". T women are branded as "ice queens", but I don't think there's as much negative stigma around that.

Probably not overall, the F males probably get the worst; but it can create isolation when trying to associate with groups of other females, and it can come into parenting ("What's wrong with her? Why isn't she mothering her kids in the overt ways I do, does she not want to be a mom? Doesn't she care?" etc.)

There are more situations in life besides dating and one's occupation, which is usually where the "ice queen" comment comes up.

 

[Frosty]

Oh and I am sorry guys, I didn't mean for this thread to make you feel bad or turn into a competition of misery or whatever. Just wanted to see your thoughts. Personally I think that both sides can have it hard. Females who are not feeling enough can be seen as cold, a bitch, ect. I know that occasionally I get that weird look like what?, why would she say that?, arent you upset?, ect. And I know guys who do not exactly get along with the majority of their male counterparts because they value different things from them. Do you think that it might be harder for male Fs just because they might be more likely to dwell on it or take it personally?

 

[Totenkindly]

Oh and I am sorry guys, I didn't mean for this thread to make you feel bad or turn into a competition of misery or whatever.

*Does not compute*

Boy, that was an F-y thing for you to say, lolz.

Do you think that it might be harder for male Fs just because they might be more likely to dwell on it or take it personally?

Possibly. T has an advantage in that it tends to slough off the personal stuff (it's more about, "they're complicating this unnecessarily" or "not being logical" or "that is inconsistent/unfair"), F tends to focus more on the personal angle. Just tendencies.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah that was more for the Fs, didnt want to unintentionally step on any toes.

I would guess that it would be more difficult for introverts in general because they are more likely to internalize rejection as a personal failure. But Im not sure, it seems like it could be pretty difficult for strong Fi using males because first of all they are more likely to natural react to criticism, and store it up deep inside of themselves. Extroverted Fi users might have it the hardest because they might be more likely to value that acceptance with the outer world, but their natural state might cause other guys to try to isolate them. So ESFPs? ENFPs?

Thoughts?

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah that was more for the Fs, didnt want to unintentionally step on any toes.

I would guess that it would be more difficult for introverts in general because they are more likely to internalize rejection as a personal failure. But Im not sure, it seems like it could be pretty difficult for strong Fi using males because first of all they are more likely to natural react to criticism, and store it up deep inside of themselves. Extroverted Fi users might have it the hardest because they might be more likely to value that acceptance with the outer world, but their natural state might cause other guys to try to isolate them. So ESFPs? ENFPs?

Thoughts?

ESFP and ENFP guys at least outwardly seem to not care (although maybe inside they might be aware of something?); remember, the extrovert is outer -> inner -> back to outer again, you see the process they undergo OUTSIDE their head. Basically, as far as theory goes, it's where someone needs to talk it out in order to think through it; introverts internalize their process.

So not totally sure -- are you saying since they expose who they are more easily, other guys might isolate them? I dont' think that's necessarily true, guys don't seem to care as much as long as you involved and active and competitive. They just don't necessarily like drama, so if you create a lot of drama that could create isolation but otherwise there are a large number of EFP guys out there, and ENFP guys I've seen can be pretty competitive at least... Guys who also channel feeling into "masculine activities" wouldn't seem that different either.

For women, it's just when you go to a weekly playcircle, most moms don't want to be discussing the formation of black holes or the impact of greehouse gases on the environment.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah I was thinking that since extroverts rely more on the real world for stimulation, that they would be more obvious with their feeling side, and that being rejected by people in it might be exceedingly difficult for them. Not saying they would be rejected, but hypothetically one with poor social skills might struggle with feelings of social isolation.

I generally think that introverts are usually harder on themselves than extroverts, but that Ts are more likely to analyze their behavior in a more detatched manner than Fs.

Especially comparing Ti to Fi. Although I can be pretty harsh with myself, the feelings experienced from that, if they even come up, are fleeting. Fi seems like it would be having those sort of feelings constantly and that they would be much deeper than those of inferior/ tertiary Fe. Although feelings of rejection might be more of an Fe thing.. Not completely sure.

 

[gromit]

Are male Fs less expressive with their feelings than their female counterparts because of societal expectations?

Yes probably that is something that can happen for male Fs.

I also think a lot of (esp younger/less mature) male Fs fall into a trap where they haven't learned to process their feelings the way female Fs have, but they have a lot more feeeeeelings than male Ts do. So there's a whole "woe is me" mentality that they need to learn to deal with.

 

[Studmuffin23]

In my experience, it seems that men are closely associated with SP traits. I've frequently heard women say that "all men want to do is take insane risks, fight people, and have sex". Most SP men seem pretty accepting of these stereotypes, with men of other personalities being skeptical.

With the men I've talked to, I've noticed that they associate SJ qualities with women. They're thought of as bossy, traditional, cautious, practical, rule-enforcing, etc. "They want to tie us down with marriage/family and keep us from having fun" I often hear men say.

On a side note, NFs seem to be strongly associated with women as well, albeit in a less flattering way. (hyper-romantic women who live in fantasy worlds).

 

[BluRoses]

It's a strange place to be, being a feeler, and a male, that's for sure. I took on a lot of things that I had zero interest in, just because I am a man. Being sole supporter, mowing the lawn, grilling, home improvement, grunting, etc. I found value in some of it, like building things and self sufficiency, others I felt utterly disconnected to, like being a financial and rational bulwark. It all ended up being a bit too much for me.

I definitely have ended up with some serious Te skills, level of competency, and pragmatism that I feel that female ENFP's aren't pressured to cultivate, which is a shame in itself.

I guess I can't really compare my experience to a female thinker's in society, except I feel commonality in the imposition of gender roles. Even though 'rationality' is considered more of a positive trait than being 'emotional', I would imagine that for a woman, that path is nearly as thorny than just being what you're expected to be. Having a tougher time is not a prize that I care to fight for.

Wait...grunting wasn't natural for you? [emoji39]

 

[miss fortune]

It would be nice if people would quit asking me if I'm a lesbian just because I enjoy shopping for power tools but hate shopping for clothing...

Otherwise, I'm generally left alone in my T ways

 

[ceecee]

Otherwise, I'm generally left alone in my T ways

Me too. In fact, I think this is talked about like it's a much bigger issue than it really is. We both like football. I do all the grilling because I'm better at it. He cooks and does laundry but not every day. He golfs. I hate golf, unless it's the mini variety. We both like to fish. I'm in IT, he is an engineer. I'm a nurturer to the people closest to me and he is too, which was always great when we had 2 sick kids at once.

Have I had people comment on my lack of emotional expression? Yes. I don't think my ENFJ has ever been told he is less of a man for being an excellent father. He does get irritated when men who spend time with their kids get extra attention - he thinks they should be doing it anyway. He isn't being emotionally expressive in public but at home, he talks about how he feels more than I do.