How Much Do You Identify With Your Circumstances?

[Nicodemus]

The combination of emotional intensity, anger and calculation that I have would make me very dangerous if I lost my reasons for being afraid.

Good to know.

My family played a big part in making this country, so I feel that this is my home.

What is your family name?

 

[kyuuei]

I'm not convinced that you can tell so much about a person as you claim. Maybe if they have a "I'm proud to be a Texan" shirt on, you could jump to some conclusions that they openly embrace the stereotypes, but I wouldn't assume that just because someone is from Texas that they affiliate with a particular political party, enjoy cow tipping, etc... In fact, I think it's dangerous when people get carried away with stereotyping. How can you embrace this and oppose, let's say, racial profiling? It makes me think of Michael Scott. lol

You're thinking too small though. You're saying, "Oh, they're a Texan but I won't assume they're a cowboy." Which is fair. But.. You would assume they grew up around cowboy hats and boots (which most probably did), that they grew up around republicans, that the rodeo was shown on TV, that football had a HUGE emphasis on their school most likely (there are only 3 public high schools in all of Texas that lack football of some sort), etc. etc. That doesn't mean THEY are the way they are.. but it is easy to see where they came from.

Clearly my two attempts to emphasize "whether they're proud or rebel against" weren't clarification enough. So let me say it Barney style for you now. You can't assume someone's a cowboy. But you can assume they grew up seeing them. And that is a powerful influence either way. You know for a fact they weren't really exposed to a ton of, for example, Ugandan or Japanese culture. And they probably weren't growing up hearing the plights of France. Many Texans aren't well traveled at a young age because it takes a long, long time or serious effort to get outside of the state because it's so big. Stuff like that is influencing.. One of the reasons I wanted to travel so bad was specifically because I had never had the opportunity to before--it takes 9 hours to get to the nearest northern state to me. It's part of who I am. If I could go to 7 states in half that time, maybe I wouldn't have grown up thinking traveling was such a fancy, cool thing to do. Maybe I'd be annoyed by traveling. It's a factor.

If you put a lot of value on tradition and acceptance and a sense of belonging then I can see why these labels and categories matter so much to you.

It isn't me putting that emphasis there--it is society. It's bigger than just what I think. Look at how involved people are about soccer--you think they care ONLY about the sport? That kicking a ball is THAT important to people? No. There's a sense of pride in where you come from when you watch sports. That your home town did something great, created something amazing. And in a group of nations that have significantly less pride in their countries, or even see pride in their countries as taboo almost, having a safe outlet to reflect that pride is important to people.

Like most cliques and social order, I just see it as a way for people to establish dominance over others and create some sort of hierarchy.

I mean, you can be all hipster about it all you want. But there's more than one way to slice a cake--just because you see it as a negative thing doesn't make it so. I think raspberries are disgusting (because I'm completely unbiased and also allergic) but that doesn't mean raspberries are at all bad.

I'm grateful that I live in the US. I think it's probably one of the best countries in the world to live in for various reasons, but I view my citizenship here as merely circumstantial. It doesn't add value to me, as a person, in any way.

But that's exactly where you're wrong. You grew up with an education--provided for you. You grew up in an age of technology, with access to computers, you grew up learning english, and speaking english. You grew up in the state you're in, exposed to the people you were.. the weather, the environment. It all plays a huge, heavy hand in who you are. Maybe you don't define yourself as an American when people ask what you're about. But to deny that you are, or that that was a huge influence in your life is just denial. You're part of the same game the whole world plays whether you want to be or not.

Even the bad stuff plays into influences. Maybe you're tired of seeing so many political battles and corruption, and so you rebel against it. But it is because you grew up seeing that in your country, and understanding the problems in your country, that you decide that. You don't just magically create identities, they're instilled in you growing up. You can rebel and redefine how you react to your environment, but it's there and a part of you whether you want it to be or not. Who you are, and how you interact with people in your life influence who they are and how they interact with others as well.

I don't think Americans are intrinsically better than people from other countries. As far as being a male, surely testosterone has played a factor in my brain chemistry, but I think many of the traits that are often associated with masculinity are socially conditioned and reinforced.

So you're not ethnocentric. Great. Many Americans are not. And sure, 'masculinity' is somewhat socially conditioned, but definitely not all of it. Not by a long shot. And definitely it is reinforced. But you being a male has influenced everything in your life--from the sort of bathrooms you go to instinctively, the way you learned how to love others, the way you learned how to interact with the opposite sex, the physical changes in your body, how you were bullied, what sports you played in, how you were raised and taught.. Everything is heavily influenced by gender. Because that's the way America is.

Basically, I don't like rules, restrictions, regulations and definitions where they need not apply. I like my freedom. It don't get more Amurican than that.

Which means you identify and define yourself as American. Great. Which is what I said. *drops mic*

 

[Bullet]

So let me say it Barney style for you now.

You can keep your condescending attitude. I've lost respect for you, as a person, because of your communication style. I have no interest in reading anything else you have to say.

Which is what I said. *drops mic*

Take your mic with you.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It's hard to, because I don't feel like I inhabit any of them that comfortably. I never felt particularly normal growing up. I don't have that much invested in some kind of group identity, but by the same token, sometimes I do feel like people expect me to apologize for belonging to certain groups, which doesn't make sense. By the same token, my identity is sort of complicated anyway by being a mutt of sorts. But the thing is, I don't mind being a mutt. I think it helps you observe things better and take a more objective stance, which is good.

 

[kyuuei]

You can keep your condescending attitude. I've lost respect for you, as a person, because of your communication style. I have no interest in reading anything else you have to say.



Take your mic with you.

When you're throwing words in my mouth I didn't say, yeah I'm gonna get a little snarky. I'm not trying to talk down to you.. but twice I've made that point, and you just blatantly ignored it twice. So, sure, I'll get a little sarcastic the third time around. I don't really appreciate your holier than thou "everyone who identifies as American as their foundation in life has a weak cookie cutter sense of self" attitude either--but you know what? I'll still respect you as a person.. and your communication style that is vastly different from mine.. AND your opinion and right and ability to say all of those things. Because there's more than one way to be.

 

[Bullet]

When you're throwing words in my mouth I didn't say, yeah I'm gonna get a little snarky. I'm not trying to talk down to you.. but twice I've made that point, and you just blatantly ignored it twice. So, sure, I'll get a little sarcastic the third time around. I don't really appreciate your holier than thou "everyone who identifies as American as their foundation in life has a weak cookie cutter sense of self" attitude either--but you know what? I'll still respect you as a person.. and your communication style that is vastly different from mine.. AND your opinion and right and ability to say all of those things. Because there's more than one way to be.

I didn't put words in your mouth. We obviously have a different view on this topic, which is fine. I do think the need to have a group identity is a weakness. I show respect to individuals until they lose it. A person who has to resort to insults in a debate is usually defending a weak argument and they feel the need to belittle or dominate the other person rather than exchange ideas or agree to disagree. Your condescension wasn't an accident. It was blatant and intentional. I don't think that reflects on the environment you grew up in as much as who you are, as a person, your attitude and the world view you've chosen to adopt.

 

[kyuuei]

I didn't put words in your mouth. We obviously have a different view on this topic, which is fine. I do think the need to have a group identity is a weakness. I show respect to individuals until they lose it. A person who has to resort to insults in a debate is usually defending a weak argument and they feel the need to belittle or dominate the other person rather than exchange ideas or agree to disagree. Your condescension wasn't an accident. It was blatant and intentional. I don't think that reflects on the environment you grew up in as much as who you are, as a person, your attitude and the world view you've chosen to adopt.

Says the guy that just called literally anyone patriotic ever weak in the OP. You literally threw out insults yourself--which you probably will go on to say you don't mean to be insulting.. or maybe you do, who knows.. but probably not. Yet, they're insulting/offensive in the first place. You're talking about a sensitive subject people cannot control--like gender, race, and nationality. And you're saying if they take pride in their culture, and identify with what they grew up in, that they're weak cookie cutter people. It's absolutely insulting and offensive. Yet, I didn't just assume you were some asshole dude just because you started off inflammatory.

My *sarcasm* was definitely not an accident. I didn't know "Breaking it down Barney style" was such an insult to you though. Do you get this upset and lose all respect for a kid when he calls you a poo poo head too? It's a purple dinosaur. That said things in simpler, more plain terms. Which I did. I found it fitting, albeit definitely sarcastic.

I'm guessing you probably didn't find my mic drop funny. Which is fine.. it made me feel a little better to make a joke out of the situation, versus .. I dunno.. being angry at how insulting your OP and posts were, and how you literally threw words into my mouth despite taking painful PC steps to make sure I was absolutely not saying that in my posts.

Yeah, I'd say we definitely have different views on what is insulting or not. So I'll call it day here.

 

[kyuuei]

I didn't put words in your mouth. We obviously have a different view on this topic, which is fine. I do think the need to have a group identity is a weakness. I show respect to individuals until they lose it. A person who has to resort to insults in a debate is usually defending a weak argument and they feel the need to belittle or dominate the other person rather than exchange ideas or agree to disagree. Your condescension wasn't an accident. It was blatant and intentional. I don't think that reflects on the environment you grew up in as much as who you are, as a person, your attitude and the world view you've chosen to adopt.

Says the guy that just called literally anyone patriotic ever weak in the OP. You literally threw out insults yourself--which you probably will go on to say you don't mean to be insulting.. or maybe you do, who knows.. but probably not. Yet, they're insulting/offensive in the first place. You're talking about a sensitive subject people cannot control--like gender, race, and nationality. And you're saying if they take pride in their culture, and identify with what they grew up in, that they're weak cookie cutter people. It's absolutely insulting and offensive. Yet, I didn't just assume you were some asshole dude just because you started off inflammatory.

My *sarcasm* was definitely not an accident. I didn't know "Breaking it down Barney style" was such an insult to you though. Do you get this upset and lose all respect for a kid when he calls you a poo poo head too? It's a purple dinosaur. That said things in simpler, more plain terms. Which I did. I found it fitting, albeit definitely sarcastic.

I'm guessing you probably didn't find my mic drop funny. Which is fine.. it made me feel a little better to make a joke out of the situation, versus .. I dunno.. being angry at how insulting your OP and posts were, and how you literally threw words into my mouth despite taking painful PC steps to make sure I was absolutely not saying that in my posts.

Yeah, I'd say we definitely have different views on what is insulting or not. So I'll call it day here.

 

[Bullet]

Says the guy that just called literally anyone patriotic ever weak in the OP. You literally threw out insults yourself--which you probably will go on to say you don't mean to be insulting.. or maybe you do, who knows.. but probably not. Yet, they're insulting/offensive in the first place. You're talking about a sensitive subject people cannot control--like gender, race, and nationality. And you're saying if they take pride in their culture, and identify with what they grew up in, that they're weak cookie cutter people. It's absolutely insulting and offensive. Yet, I didn't just assume you were some asshole dude just because you started off inflammatory.

My *sarcasm* was definitely not an accident. I didn't know "Breaking it down Barney style" was such an insult to you though. Do you get this upset and lose all respect for a kid when he calls you a poo poo head too? It's a purple dinosaur. That said things in simpler, more plain terms. Which I did. I found it fitting, albeit definitely sarcastic.

I'm guessing you probably didn't find my mic drop funny. Which is fine.. it made me feel a little better to make a joke out of the situation, versus .. I dunno.. being angry at how insulting your OP and posts were, and how you literally threw words into my mouth despite taking painful PC steps to make sure I was absolutely not saying that in my posts.

Yeah, I'd say we definitely have different views on what is insulting or not. So I'll call it day here.

Actually, I've never had a kid call me a poo poo head. Sometimes, children are more mature than adults.

Ultimately, I think this debate boils down to, does a person seek external validation and outside forces to form their identity or do they venture inward, ruminating and questioning preexisting beliefs that were impressed upon them. Not that a person should be a vacuum that is impenetrable from the outside, but if they are nothing more than a mirror reflecting cultural ideals or whatever group they're "supposed" to belong to, that's not much of a personal identity. It's a caricature.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Actually, I've never had a kid call me a poo poo head. Sometimes, children are more mature than adults.

Ultimately, I think this debate boils down to, does a person seek external validation and outside forces to form their identity or do they venture inward, ruminating and questioning preexisting beliefs that were impressed upon them. Not that a person should be a vacuum that is impenetrable from the outside, but if they are nothing more than a mirror reflecting cultural ideals or whatever group they're "supposed" to belong to, that's not much of a personal identity. It's a caricature.

No one is nothing more than a mirror, just as no one solely ventures inward.

You should quit before you get farther behind.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I do think the need to have a group identity is a weakness.

There's a biblical illustration of the issue of collectivism vs. individuality...God has Adam build something using stones, whichrepresent individuality. The story of the tower of Babel strikes as contrast when they use bricks, which represent conformity. The interpretation is that God creates individuals, and the world seeks conformity...That's just what comes to my mind when reading your post.

 

[Kullervo]

I don't see how these two concepts are exclusive. How do you not identify with the things that made you who you are? How do you not identify with the struggle of being a certain gender, either way it goes? It is impossible for me to say, "I don't identify as a woman" because being a woman is absolutely what has influenced much of my life. If someone asks me, "What makes you who you are?" I probably won't say, "Being a girl" because.. it's such an obvious answer that it doesn't really say much. People assume that's an influencing factor. What I would say is the specifics behind being a girl--whether I was a tomboy, or a girly girl, or whether my father approved of my antics and behaviors, whether my mother set a good example, etc.

I agree that everyone, to some extent, has association to the group-related aspects of their identity, because these are an intrinsic part of what makes you who you are. To what extent they matter to the person will vary - my personal experiences and self form most of my identity - but I don't deny the other parts. People who deny that such things are important to them are deceiving both themselves and others. Such people suffer from a pathology called self hatred. Self hatred can be directed towards any part of your identity; whether it be towards individually unique characteristics, familial ones or wider group (such as ethnicity) ones. All are signs of mental illness, but for political reasons wider group self-hatred is encouraged instead of condemned.

That's because those things are too obvious. When you're in a foreign country you can quickly sum up an entire concept by saying, "I'm a Texan." People have so many stereotypes about Texas that it's easier to weed out which you are/are not after you rule out the hundreds of other stereotypes out there. You can tell a lot about a person based on their gender, race, and nationality. Not everything, surely.. but even if you rebel against what your country stands for, who you're stereotypically suppose to be attracted to, or don't participate in your race's traditions, you can tell a LOT about a person based on those shallow vague bits of information. You can narrow a lot down.

Probably due to my narcissism, being in a foreign country doesn't really effect how I perceive myself, save the observation that the people around me and their customs are different. Because I am in their country, that doesn't threaten me and I instead find it interesting. I disagree that you can tell much about someone based on their nationality and ethnicity; there are a few assumptions one can make but not that many. I know that simply from being so radically different in my political orientation and musical interests to everyone around me, but fit in in other ways. Though, being different isn't something i relish, quite the contrary.

Sure. So does judging people that are proud of where they came from. How is it less of an identity, or a less valid identity, to say you're a Texan, proud of it, and do all the stereotypical Texan things you were raised around. How is it not an elitist attitude to say, "I think that people proud of their ethnicity and nationality have weaker, cookie cutter personalities in comparison to my unique identity markers." What do you have going for you that makes your shit better than the very fundamentals that mold everyone that passes through them forever?

It gives one a strong sense of tradition, acceptance, basis, and home. Those are pretty important things and aspects in a person growing up--and they stick with you. It may seem cookie cutter to you, but for many it's what separates them from the crowd. Anywhere I go in the world, people have an idea of what my unique home looks like because of where I came from. No matter where I go, or how odd the traditions are, even if I indulge in them.. I know people at home still understand where I'm coming from.

It isn't a weak, soul-crushing thing to love your home country. Or to embrace racial traditions. Or to enjoy being the gender you are. Infact, I would argue that these identities are stronger if they'd be crushed when they were stripped away. If you can say, "Oh, I'm no longer a guy. Oh well. Oh, I'm no longer considered a Mexican because there is no country of Mexico now. Fancy that..." chances are it wasn't a strong part of who you were at all. But I also think people who THINK they wouldn't be crushed by it are kidding themselves. People don't think they care that much about being something else.. but they don't realize that who they are is based largely on that sort of stuff. I would literally not even be the same person, with any of the same experiences or thought processes, if I changed something as drastic as my gender. If I was no longer a woman, and that ceased to be, it would be completely and utterly destroying to my personality. I'd suddenly be gay--or suddenly attracted to girls. My boyfriend wouldn't ever have been with me. I would have never met my best friend, which was a friendship initially born of attraction. None of it would be.

And I know that because the people who watch the countries they love fall apart have to live with that for the rest of their lives. People are still scared to say what gender they know in their heart they are because of how STRONG that sort of identity is for everyone. The fact that they create so many stereotypes, discriminatory elements, and elite attitudes is part of why they're strong influences in the first place.

I don't know you. Maybe you're one of the rare people who would literally just yawn and change your underwear at the store that day if you woke up magically a different gender. Or if you were suddenly black when you'd been white your whole life. Maybe not a single damn thing would have ever changed on you. But I'll eat my hat when I see that happen.

Having a full identity and being proud of it is incredibly important for self-devalopment. Rejecting all the traditions and ways of your ancestors I will never have respect for - it is irrational, destructive rebellion without purpose and no better to clinging on to them all blindly without scrutiny. Besides, doing so would eliminate the differences between ethnicities that make the world an interesting place. Now I am going to be controversial. To me, "Texan" is not a valid identity, because it has no biological element. Anyone can, potentially, take it on, therefore it isn't unique to any group of individuals. Only a select group of people - if anyone at all - can have any part of my identity, which automatically raises its value. This view will be controversial to Americans, but to persist, an identity must be grounded in biology and hence exclusive. Exclusivity is what makes your identity special on every level.

People assume a lot of things about me when they look at me and hear my voice (they assume i'm English, except, obviously, in England) and then where I tell them where i'm from, blurt out a few stereotypical things about NZ, based on LOTR and the marketing stereotypes done by the government usually. I don't really mind - they are pretty positive impressions.

Wanting to destroy your country's cultural identity, or the racial and ethnic differences between its people and alien ones themselves, are all signs of mental illness and/or social conditioning. If you aren't a member of the nation, it is in your interests to do this, but i am assuming from the tone of your post that this is not the case. Whether you identify strongly with the group parts of your identity or not, they are still parts of who you are and have impacts on others. It would be life-threatningly bad if I lost any of the group-parts of my identity, they are the positives that (at least to some extent) balance out the negatives which are my many individual defects. They give me a chance to at least take some pride in who I am, and some of the best life experiences that I've had (sexual/romantic) would've never occurred.

The importance of identity is underrated. Being landed with a fragmented identity is a sure way to drive someone into depression and despair.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

What do you do for a living?

 

[kyuuei]

A person who has to resort to insults in a debate is usually defending a weak argument and they feel the need to belittle or dominate the other person rather than exchange ideas or agree to disagree.

Ha! You may want to hit the gym first. You're looking a little flabby these days.

Just sayin'...

Having a full identity and being proud of it is incredibly important for self-devalopment. Rejecting all the traditions and ways of your ancestors I will never have respect for - it is irrational, destructive rebellion without purpose and no better to clinging on to them all blindly without scrutiny.

I would generally agree with this. Two sides of the same coin--blindly following and complete rejection.

To me, "Texan" is not a valid identity, because it has no biological element. Anyone can, potentially, take it on, therefore it isn't unique to any group of individuals. Only a select group of people - if anyone at all - can have any part of my identity, which automatically raises its value.

It is controversial, no doubt. And I can get why you'd think that--it isn't like being Japanese, or German, where birthright alone gets you where you are. but I think it's also a part of what makes being a Texan so great. I was born in South Carolina--but I was raised here my whole life. We're not all made up of native Texans, and anyone can put on a cowboy hat and boots--and in fact we encourage that--but we're famous anyways because of that. Cowboys came from and lived all over the US, yet they're particularly famous here. Sure we have a lot of negative aspects that come with the state, everyone does, but overall if you want to be Texan just come be Texan. There are some things that separate us from people who came here of their own accord--we have particular ways of talking and slang language and accents that are unique to the area, and our homes and decor are very particularly.. er.. rustic. But it's a culture one can *become*.. which is a difficult thing to find for most people.

I'm particularly fond of French culture lately in my life, and although I love it--I will always be an outsider for France. I'll never be French, or seen as french, etc. etc. I just wasn't born into that, and nothing I can do will change that. The same story goes for Japanese culture. But.. I can walk in any day of the week and become a Texan and have people accept me for that. It's a great revolving door.

 

[Nicodemus]

You should be more discreet about your online activities. If you actually do have aspirations about being a politician some day, a person could embarrass the shit out of you with your online persona.

I told him so years ago. But C. K. S. (the Third) will never yield!

 

[Agnieszka]

Hi,

Thank you for the thrilling question!

I am thankful to know, that most of the time when we dislike other people's attitudes it happenes because they resonate to OUR negative feelings hidden inside towards our same kind of negative attitude

The more people I get to know, the more I can see how similar we are - when I manage to put my EGO aside and avoid prejudgements. Everybody wants to be loved, to eat, drink and sleep, which means we ALL have the same most important goals and we are ALL loveable when we do not disguise.

Sociodrama is a great tool to wear others' shoes. When I play another person, I get free of my boundries and can have the real simpathy and love for him / her. It is a mirror for me,paralelly, in which I can see myself with another's eyes and that gives me enlightment.

All people are presents for me who represent my reflections, so I HAVE to love them ALL, even if their mirror is broken or filthy. I have a ray of light, I cannot help to put the light out, it won't loose its brightness anyway. If our communication is fine, our energies will be mixed and multiply so we'll be one for a period of time at least

 

[Rasofy]

It would take a God to answer this question in a satisfying way

 

[prplchknz]

drama breaks out at the weirdest places on this forum

i indentify as a humn

some random person: no you are a penguin, ef you! I know more i've never met you!! but you are a fucking penguin!!

 

[Mal12345]

drama breaks out at the weirdest places on this forum

i indentify as a humn

some random person: no you are a penguin, ef you! I know more i've never met you!! but you are a fucking penguin!!

If you don't care about it, then why did you change to iNTP?

 

[prplchknz]

If you don't care about it, then why did you change to iNTP?

why are you following me around the forum?