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"Stop Cheering Me Up: Debbie Downer"

á´…eparted

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I just came across this article and found it to be really interesting, and something that comes up here quite frequently. It's something I can relate to on a personal level as well in a multitude of ways. Definitely worth discussing.

Stop cheering me up: Some people don't want to hear it

In a series of six scenarios involving some 1,000 participants ages 18-30, researchers found that people with low self-esteem don’t want to hear your platitudes, and would prefer friends and loved ones see them as they see themselves. “Those with low self-esteem actually reject the so-called ‘positive reframing,’ or expressions of optimism and encouragement, most of us offer to them,” says lead author Dr. Denise Marigold, an assistant professor at Renison University College at Waterloo.

Despite good intentions designed to boost spirits, people with low self-esteem “are simply more comfortable wallowing” in their misery, she adds. “What we think is well-intentioned support is really alienating for them. They feel as if people don’t understand their issues and don’t accept their feelings. It almost demonstrates a lack of caring.” ... The researchers do want to be clear that validating negative thoughts and feelings doesn’t mean you are free to say, “Yeah, you are a loser,” to a friend who is feeling poorly about a situation. Rather, it’s a more productive to simply acknowledge the person is upset.


For many individuals this is something we know. When we're upset, sometimes we just need to chew the cud and wallow in it for a while. We'll want support or something to cheer us up, but getting a spray of "joy! happiness! love!" in the face usually makes you feel much worse than before. It ties into mindfullness practice as well. Where one is supposed to acknowledge the feelings we feel. Not supress them, or invalidate them.

Of course eventually one needs to stop wallowing and do the best they can to move forward, and it's interesting to consider the implications of induldging someone with this, and where the line is where it goes too far.

Thoughts? Discuss.
 

SD45T-2

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I totally get this. I can think of lots of examples from my life but I'll try narrowing it down to one.

A few years ago I was starting a certain college class for something I find daunting, but that was theoretically right for my skill level. After a couple weeks I got a sinking feeling that I was in way over my head and had no idea what I was doing. When I expressed this concern to my friends, many of them said they knew I was smart and that they expected me to do just fine. Never mind that I don't have a track record of being smart or capable in that particular field. To put it mildly. :fpalm:

As the weeks went by my level of incomprehension steadily increased and I crashed and burned. And people were surprised and disappointed. :17425:
 

Haven

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Omg you're such a nice and good looking guy you should be getting all the ladies.

Oh yea? I must be pretty messed up then huh
 

Cellmold

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This has been an issue in my life for a while. /whine
 

Chthonic

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Why is it called wallowing and not coming to a place of acceptance in your own time? People who want you to cheer up on their timetable are doing it for their own comfort not yours, they don't want you killing the mood.
 

tinker683

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I will offer words of encouragement because I would prefer people try to help me back up than let me stay down. The fact is is that sometimes we all get kicked down a little too much and need a hand to get back up, saying otherwise I feel is you letting yourself trip over yourself.

I totally understand if someone is feeling down and just needs a moment to reflect and understand their situation. But there is a stark difference between spending time to learn from your situation and allowing your fear to try again dominate and control you. The first group gets my sympathy when they ask that they'd like to be left alone. The 2nd group deserves their self-inflicted misery.
 

Evo

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Why is it called wallowing and not coming to a place of acceptance in your own time? People who want you to cheer up on their timetable are doing it for their own comfort not yours, they don't want you killing the mood.

This.
 

prplchknz

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when I'm upset about something and someone diminishes it without knowing the full scenerio or not really getting it. and tell me to fucking smile. deserves to be punched repeatly in the face with alternating kicks to the groin.

btw I'm happy right now, but I wouldn't tell you to be happy if you were going through some emotional shit.
 

ceecee

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For many individuals this is something we know. When we're upset, sometimes we just need to chew the cud and wallow in it for a while. We'll want support or something to cheer us up, but getting a spray of "joy! happiness! love!" in the face usually makes you feel much worse than before. It ties into mindfullness practice as well. Where one is supposed to acknowledge the feelings we feel. Not supress them, or invalidate them.

It makes me want to punch people in the mouth. Fuck the joy, happiness, niceness, positive attitude and you can accomplish anything people. I want to shake sense into them and say - don't tell me how to feel. They're MY feelings so piss off. No you can't continue to wallow or let it consume you. But people need to learn that others and their feelings are not clean and polished and gleaming. They're messy. Dirty. They make others uncomfortable. Deal with it, they get no slack from me.
 

á´…eparted

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It makes me want to punch people in the mouth. Fuck the joy, happiness, niceness, positive attitude and you can accomplish anything people. I want to shake sense into them and say - don't tell me how to feel. They're MY feelings so piss off. No you can't continue to wallow or let it consume you. But people need to learn that others and their feelings are not clean and polished and gleaming. They're messy. Dirty. They make others uncomfortable. Deal with it, they get no slack from me.

LOL! You're Fi is showing ;). I don't share your sentiments in this regard for the reasons of why and how to respond. In these situations I understand the intent of the person giving it, and can't fault them for it, so I don't feel ill feelings, anger, etc. towards them for doing it. I don't get upset over being told how to feel most of the time. I guess cause I spend a lot of time telling myself how I should feel? *shrug*
 

Z Buck McFate

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Why is it called wallowing and not coming to a place of acceptance in your own time? People who want you to cheer up on their timetable are doing it for their own comfort not yours, they don't want you killing the mood.

I agree with this. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone having a low threshold for being exposed to someone else’s wallowing- I’m definitely the one on the ‘low threshold’ end with some people myself, everyone’s need to comb through certain details is going to vary- but it does make me a bit prickly when people try to stop someone else’s wallowing by pointing out that it’s too much (as if there’s one correct standard out there for everyone).

And something that annoys me about the article is that I don’t especially think ‘not being open to positive reframing’/wallowing is so inexorably linked to low self-esteem. It can be, to be sure, but just as often it can be naive, condescending and/or invalidating and I don't think 'low self esteem' is the only reason a person might be impervious.
 

ygolo

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If we need examples, I can point you to a thread in the Relationships section (probably quite a few actually).
 

SD45T-2

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It makes me want to punch people in the mouth. Fuck the joy, happiness, niceness, positive attitude and you can accomplish anything people. I want to shake sense into them and say - don't tell me how to feel. They're MY feelings so piss off. No you can't continue to wallow or let it consume you. But people need to learn that others and their feelings are not clean and polished and gleaming. They're messy. Dirty. They make others uncomfortable. Deal with it, they get no slack from me.
You're awesome. :cheers: Fi FTW. :smoke:
 

Z Buck McFate

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From another piece about same study (and I like the way this was phrased):

Negative validation, the study explains, “communicate that the feelings, actions, or responses of the recipient are normal and appropriate to the situation” and “express[es] appreciation for the recipient’s predicament or for the difficulty of the situation.”

Negative validation won. People with low self esteem felt more affirmed and supported by just being heard and validated. They did not want to look on the bright side. So, practice saying, "It's normal and okay for you to feel sad. That's really hard."

If you just can't help yourself from offering the optimistic view, better to leave your depressed friend alone to wallow in their misery. This approach also has the side benefit for you. The researchers found that people who try to cheer a friend up and fail end up feeling worse about themselves, too.


It still seems off to me, though, to say this is a low self esteem issue.
 

Eluded_One

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From another piece about same study (and I like the way this was phrased):

Negative validation, the study explains, “communicate that the feelings, actions, or responses of the recipient are normal and appropriate to the situation” and “express[es] appreciation for the recipient’s predicament or for the difficulty of the situation.”

Negative validation won. People with low self esteem felt more affirmed and supported by just being heard and validated. They did not want to look on the bright side. So, practice saying, "It's normal and okay for you to feel sad. That's really hard."

If you just can't help yourself from offering the optimistic view, better to leave your depressed friend alone to wallow in their misery. This approach also has the side benefit for you. The researchers found that people who try to cheer a friend up and fail end up feeling worse about themselves, too.


It still seems off to me, though, to say this is a low self esteem issue.


I can see where this excerpt is coming from, but I can't fully agree to it.

Negative Validation (you done the best you could) is supportive by accepting the situation as is, where as Positive Affirmation (don't worry be happy), seems bubbly and pointing attention to the recipient by telling him/her to act more accordingly despite conditions.
 

Comeback Girl

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Please tell me this is going to be real. Someday. Preferably tomorrow. I know people like this, they annoy the fuck out of me. I once unfriended a girl because she was like this, always acting happy about boring stuff with this scary smiley face of hers, she kinda looked like Overly Attached Girlfriend but without the sense of humor and with just a hint of caveman. During finals, she even posted this picture of her legs covered in a blanket stating 'Studying for blah blah under my sweet warm little blanket with a nice cup of cocoa with whipped cream #blessed'. I mean, I was stressed the fuck out, the tension even gave me this sick rash and it made me look too hideous to go out of the house, I just can't understand how one can act happy and cheery about finals! That was the exact moment when I hit that unfriend button, so glad I don't have to see her Neanderthal face again. Really, she's the type of person who would, if she ever went into labor, post a status update saying 'Giving birth underneath this cute little blanket with a nice cup of tea #lolcontractions #blessed'. Pretty sure she'd do that. If I'd go in labor, I won't post anything at all and if I'd have to post anything, it would be 'RIP my vagina #literally'.
 

Redbone

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It still seems off to me, though, to say this is a low self esteem issue.

I have to say I didn't like that either. I don't see why they are linking it with low self esteem. I mean, fuck...does everyone have to be so happy-happy joy-joy 24/7 to be normal? I'm sick of this constant pressure to be your absolute best, unstressed, healthy balanced self...I mean, really goddamn...it's become like the worst marketing scheme ever. It's even abnormal to spend an extended period grieving over a major stress such a death or divorce...there's all this advice on how to quickly get over it labeled as 'support'...it's anything but.

I better stop...I can feel froth forming here. Bad moods don't need 'fixing'. Don't like it? Vote with your feet.
 

OrangeAppled

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This sentence is key:
"The researchers do want to be clear that validating negative thoughts and feelings doesn’t mean you are free to say, “Yeah, you are a loser,” to a friend who is feeling poorly about a situation. Rather, it’s a more productive to simply acknowledge the person is upset."

The rest of it is a bit misleading without that sentence. It sounds like you want someone to reinforce a negative self-image, but you want someone to validate feelings & perspective. You are seeking empathy!

It can seem like you're not allowed to be human if you cannot ever feel down, and some of those overly positive people can push an unrealistic standard on people with their excessive cheerfulness. That shows a lack of empathy on their part - they are unable to grasp why someone would feel bad in a certain situation because they wouldn't feel that way.

Negative feelings are important & serve a useful purpose - they are as much signals to us as other feelings. Positive feelings tell us when something important to us is being fulfilled, and negative feelings can signal a violation, a void, a mismatch, etc. Someone can have low self-esteem & repress negative feelings because they may think they just burden people with them (see those "pollyanna" types).

I find you CAN inject positive feedback without invaliding someone and without it amounting to false "feel good" flattery. First you express understanding, and then you note that even though something may be bad & they may feel bad, that this is NOT indicative of their human value. It's a matter of distinguishing between the feelings & identity, not equating the two.
 
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