Putting a label on it - Existential Depression

[Nicodemus]

[MENTION=20044]calb[/MENTION], it's great that socialising has worked for you. My situation is that I work a social job which means I burn all my social energy with people I wouldn't choose to be around. The limited time I have at home is my sanity time where I can decompress from the emotionally draining job I do. It's not as if I materially help others either. I simply manage people's unrealistic sense if entitlement and other less favourable aspects of personalities. So forgive me if I want some me time and not spend the precious moments I have swimming in the relentless tide of ego.

Can you change your job?

 

[WhoCares]

Can you change your job?

Been actively applying for other jobs for the past year. No bites yet but hope as thy say springs eternal.

 

[WhoCares]

I can clearly see that your ego is on the line here.

Seriously? What a dick thing to say.

 

[Typh0n]

Seriously? What a dick thing to say.

Why is that a dick thing to say?

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Not caring is a moral issue. Not caring is a matter of the heart.

So to move from not caring to caring requires a change of heart.

We can't buy a change of heart at the supermarket, but we can find a change of heart by falling in love with someone with a beautiful heart.

I fell in love with Simone Weil, but who knows who you might fall in love with?

I really like this, Mole.

Also, the total isolation concept is quite maddening. I always like to remember that what we see out in the environment is simply a reconstruction inside our head, that we don't actually look out into the world, we look within at what renders from input data, like having a picture from the outside delivered to a closed off room. Makes you realize the strangeness of it all.

Indeed.

 

[Cellmold]

You said you play the harp?

Would you say it is a passion of yours? I agree with [MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] you have to create your own reason from some form of passion.

I've had/have similar thoughts and continue to bounce in and out of them, so perhaps I am not the best person to give advice on the matter. But perhaps you could make that harp your passion, music communicates intuitively with the mind of others and doesn't demand conventional explanation; people can only rationalise as best they can, after the fact. Like everything really.

You wouldn't have to do this for others either, it can be for yourself, not so much that misery loves company as expression of what you value. I think people tend to get caught up in meaning from a human perspective, which is of course impossible to escape for us and we are inherently biased.

But I think we can grasp the tail end of meaning from which the apparent universe derives. It doesn't require a set standard of logic, the earth and by extension ourselves, are all here by a conglomeration of variables that just happened to come together for the right conditions of what we call 'life'.

I do think there is meaning in life, I just don't think it is a human one, nor do I see it as one belonging to a beneficent deity or conscious force. It doesn't judge, or command, or ask, or give and we cannot bully it, or be bullied by it...it just is; much like ourselves. I know this sounds suspiciously like giving up on trying to search for truth in the matter, but it's more of an acceptance that we can change our format and approach to this line of questioning, which doesn't mean that we stop seeking, only that we change the nature of how we seek. Of course this does bring into question the nature of morality which is to me, a more difficult topic.

But in either case emotions are part of the issue. Even when we consider ourselves a font of reason who do not react or feel emotions strongly, they are still there as part of our evolution. Emotions always come before the rationalisation of them and they are definitely triggered by certain stimulus, which we then intellectualise into complex and interwoven explanations. In some ways this is actually an almost in-built belief system, we believe that what causes these emotional reactions are to blame and because of this, they are.

More importantly though, life is just our experience, from birth to death. You can check out early if you want, or stick it out to the end, but it's still your decision.

The meaning is in what you choose to make of it.

Or...yknow, determinism. Whatevs!

 

[Tellenbach]

This is strange. I'm reading a book right now about an INTJ psychoanalyst experiencing the exact same problem. It's titled 'The Listener' by Allen Wheelis. He says he doesn't know how to live. He plays the part of living. He goes on walks with his ENFP wife, plays with the dog, and listens to patients, but he finds such excursions and experiences "tedious". His wife asks him why he ignores her all the time and he responds by telling her a story (I won't spoil it in case you want to read the book.).

I haven't finished the book so I don't know if he ever finds what he's looking for.

 

[WhoCares]

[MENTION=20113]Tellenbach[/MENTION],

I cant speak for other INTJs but for me, I am more idealist than realist, more dreamer than pragmatist. So the harshness of reality is something I've never made peace with. What most people pass off as human frailty is unconscionable darkness to me. I just cant say, well thats people, because it deeply affects me to know that people are unreliable, unpredictable and can go off the dial on a moments notice. So I've not met anyone I would call a good person actually, they are all as finicky and untrustworthy as each other. The shifting morality that exists within people is I think, the most dangerous aspect of humans. Because it means there truly is no line in the sand, anyone will do anything given the right set of circumstances. And a lot of everyday circumstances will see regular people doing very questionable things all the while justifying their actions.

One of my coworkers friends was seriously injured in a car accident and lying on the road. Several people stopped but not one of them assisted. They all robbed this injured person,taking his wallet from his pocket, belongings from his vehicle and leaving him for dead on the road. He remembers people rifling through his clothing and stepping over him but it was some time before anyone arrived that called the emergency services. I'd like to think that a van of petty crims were first on the scene, but the reality is, these were regular people given a set of circumstances and choosing to do what they did consciously. Its what people do when no-ones looking that bothers me.

So yeah, its a bleak outlook on life when you realise this is the basis of society. Ethics, morals, beauty of humanity...all just fairytales at the end of the day.

 

[Tellenbach]

So the harshness of reality is something I've never made peace with.

From another INTJ:

"The crazy violence that is everywhere, promiscuous, flares up in an instant, with no more warning, no more meaning, no more reason than a dogfight. How little time for laughter, how brief our innocence of what lies in wait." Allen Wheelis

This is what Wheelis concludes to be meaning in life:

"We live by attachment, not by reason. That's why love is primary: there is no value without caring, and caring is loving. If looking about at the world, one finds no one and no thing to love, no bird, no tree, no flower worth caring about, the world is without value; and then, in fatal consequence, one's own life is without value."

"But if, looking about at the world, one finds someone to love, or perhaps not a person but a dog, or maybe only a plant that wants water and needs sunshine, or maybe not even anything living but a thing - an old house that has sheltered us, that has creaked and moaned in the storms of winter - then one has something to live for, and in consequence, one's own life is worth preserving. That's the point: one's own life has value only because one cares for others. And one cares without a reason! Without reflection, without the weighing of profit and loss. The caring that justifies everything else is itself without justification. It is a leap."

It took Wheelis a lifetime to come up with that. Hopefully, it won't take you as long.

 

[WhoCares]

I'm inspired to read that book [MENTION=20113]Tellenbach[/MENTION], and yes I have my reason for living...for now. I have two creatures who live with me and inspire me to acts of love beyond all reason. They are why I haven't given myself the green dream, I will stay as long as they live. Hopefully when they are gone there will be something else to keep me going.

 

[á´…eparted]

I get this occasionally, mostly when I am about to hit a downswing, or am in a down swing. It's a very bad thing for me to think about and can cause all kinds of dangerous thoughts. It's best for me to stay away from it. By and large, I don't think about this sort of stuff, and if I feel it coming on I attempt to shove it away. Usually I can.

 

[WhoCares]

[MENTION=15392]AffirmitiveAnxiety[/MENTION], I have lots of passions (things that interest me intensely for periods of time) the difficulty has always been distilling a vast range of interests into a single theme. And also why my interest in something only sustains until a certain point then 'I'm done with it' and can put it aside and never go there again. I couldn't connect the dots before but I think this last week, I've come up with the one theme that exists in all my interests. Design. It's been a long time coming but although I do enjoy the mechanics of many arts, like music, like painting, like metalwork, what I enjoy most is the creative process of designing something. The mechanical aspect of putting it all together is usually a lot less interesting to me.

Now, to find a focus for that desire, one that has longterm potential so I can stick with it and see it through. I was watching some doco's on Virgin Galactic last night. I don't really care about suborbital flight, Richard Branson's peter pan complex or the even whether or not this is the future of aviation. What grabbed me the most was the interviews with the engineers and designers working on the project. They were simply alive because someone had handed them a project that clearly got all the synapses going, fired up their neurons and they were able to sustain high levels of creativity and focus for years on end. What I loved was how each and every one of them was dead keen to start a working day and didn't want to go home at night. This....this is the essence of living that I feel is missing from my existence. This kind of focus is what I want.

 

[Geonat]

It is the heroic and stoic life that remains (without making any claims whatsoever of leading any of them yet ) and that should be a sufficient and worthy cause for most people I'd say.
Hell is not other people.

 

[wildflower]

I cant speak for other INTJs but for me, I am more idealist than realist, more dreamer than pragmatist. So the harshness of reality is something I've never made peace with. What most people pass off as human frailty is unconscionable darkness to me. I just cant say, well thats people, because it deeply affects me to know that people are unreliable, unpredictable and can go off the dial on a moments notice. So I've not met anyone I would call a good person actually, they are all as finicky and untrustworthy as each other. The shifting morality that exists within people is I think, the most dangerous aspect of humans. Because it means there truly is no line in the sand, anyone will do anything given the right set of circumstances. And a lot of everyday circumstances will see regular people doing very questionable things all the while justifying their actions.

One of my coworkers friends was seriously injured in a car accident and lying on the road. Several people stopped but not one of them assisted. They all robbed this injured person,taking his wallet from his pocket, belongings from his vehicle and leaving him for dead on the road. He remembers people rifling through his clothing and stepping over him but it was some time before anyone arrived that called the emergency services. I'd like to think that a van of petty crims were first on the scene, but the reality is, these were regular people given a set of circumstances and choosing to do what they did consciously. Its what people do when no-ones looking that bothers me.

So yeah, its a bleak outlook on life when you realise this is the basis of society. Ethics, morals, beauty of humanity...all just fairytales at the end of the day.

i have been thinking about this particular post of yours. what happened to your co-worker's friend is unconscionable, but my guess is this happened in a not very good neighborhood. regardless, it's notable because it isn't common fortunately. most of the time someone does call 911 right away. so, i can't see it as something emblematic of the basis of society as you say. i think you could just as easily focus on something positive & altruistic someone has done and say the same thing is the basis of society. what about all those firefighters from 9/11? that is about as brave and noble a thing as could be since i'm sure they knew walking up those stairs they would probably not make it back out. they walked into what most run out of in order to rescue strangers knowing they would likely lose their lives. and, firefighters make the choice to do that every single day of their careers. it isn't unpredictable at all. personally, i thing most people are quite predictable and consistent even if they are predictably unstable. people usually do consistently crappy things or consistently good things or just consistently average things. the thing is there are countless examples of people behaving nobly and people behaving terribly. that is life. it isn't all good or all bad so to focus on just one or the other really isn't honest. further, i think it's like confirmation bias. you will see what you focus on and what you dwell on will greatly affect you. so, if you just pay attention to the dark and depressing things and the bad things people do you will most definitely become depressed and feel life is void of meaning. i'm not at all saying to be a pollyanna--i have a melancholy temperament myself--but just to at least try to balance what you focus on. since it does affect you and how you feel it really isn't something to be passive about.

eta: everything you are saying in this thread strikes me as very enneagram 9. it's funny because you sound a lot like my former neighbor who i believe is a 9. the acedia which can be seen in your username, the fatalistic resignation, not wanting to accept all of reality, etc. chances are this is a part of your temperament and something you will have to continually be mindful of.

 

[INTJMom]

Wow... you took the words right out of my mouth.
I need the same thing out of life... meaning... focus... direction.
I wonder if this is mostly a thing that INTJs struggle with.

Anyway... *hugs*

 

[INTJMom]

...Or iis it the product of not giving the mind enough to do? When I look back on the last decade it is the time in my life where I stepoed off the career ladder completely. Spent three years without a job at all, maybe that period of aimlessness was actually a big mistake because it gave me nothing to do except latch onto the idea that life is meaningless....

I think you're right.
But what's done is done.
I am at a similar point in my life where I am defining who I want to be.
Life isn't as much fun if you don't have someone to share it with.
I know you said you were in a relationship that just ended.
When you're in that much pain, it isn't wise to "come to conclusions" about life.
You can't trust yourself to be objective.

 

[INTJMom]

[MENTION=20044]calb[/MENTION], it's great that socialising has worked for you. My situation is that I work a social job which means I burn all my social energy with people I wouldn't choose to be around. The limited time I have at home is my sanity time where I can decompress from the emotionally draining job I do. It's not as if I materially help others either. I simply manage people's unrealistic sense if entitlement and other less favourable aspects of personalities. So forgive me if I want some me time and not spend the precious moments I have swimming in the relentless tide of ego.

Perhaps you would benefit from making a career change or at least a job change?
You could decide what you would enjoy doing and if you don't have all the skills you need, you could work in that direction?
I am working in my dream-job.
I can go to work in jeans and sneakers.
I work mostly on a computer.
I occasionally interact with people, and when I do, I make a game of it.
I decide to make them my "customer" and that all I want is for them to be pleased with my work.
I have had very good success with this attitude.
I enjoy my job and sometimes I prefer it to my life... since I don't really have a life.

 

[INTJMom]

...He says he doesn't know how to live. ...

I have been telling my counselor the SAME THING!

I ended up with a book called The Grief Recovery Handbook by John W. James and Russell Friedman.
They say that unresolved losses and the accompanying pain limit your "aliveness"
(not the only word they invent).
As an INTJ I have found the book somewhat insulting to my level of emotional-intelligence,
but I am forcing my way through it because I really have no idea what else to do!

A quote from the book:
"Each time a loss is not properly concluded, there is cumulative restriction on our aliveness.
Life becomes something to endure; the world seems like a hostile place to live."

That describes me. I end up living in a "cave" of my own making because that's where I feel safe.

I'm not finished yet, so I can't say if it will work, but it is showing promise.
The authors have helped thousands of people and the reviews on amazon were impressive.

 

[INTJMom]

...One of my coworkers friends was seriously injured in a car accident and lying on the road. ...
So yeah, its a bleak outlook on life when you realise this is the basis of society. Ethics, morals, beauty of humanity...all just fairytales at the end of the day.

That is NOT the world that I grew up in.
That story totally depresses and SHOCKS me.
I don't even want to believe you!

I know there is a lot of evil in this world,
but I have made it my mission to be someone who "makes" someone's day instead of someone who ruins it.
I have made it my mission to smile at people who I make eye contact with.
Love is the only thing in life worth living for.

 

[WhoCares]

[MENTION=14074]wildflower[/MENTION] & [MENTION=1125]INTJMom[/MENTION], lots of thought provoking ideas there. I dont have time to reply right now, but I'll come back after I've pondered for a bit.