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Which function do you think correlates best with having

Which function correlates best with having critical thinking skills?

  • Te

    Votes: 8 25.8%
  • Fe

    Votes: 3 9.7%
  • Ti

    Votes: 25 80.6%
  • Se

    Votes: 3 9.7%
  • Si

    Votes: 6 19.4%
  • Ni

    Votes: 13 41.9%
  • Ne

    Votes: 4 12.9%
  • Fi

    Votes: 7 22.6%

  • Total voters
    31

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I see your bullshit there and double it...:)

I think Ne just distorts external reality in favor of a more likeable one for the self...

Considering this description on wiki:



How is Ne (or Se, Te and Fe for that matter) inward directed and how does it improve and optimize one's internal thinking processes to remove self bias (which I think comes from Fi and Ti)?

You truly believe that extraverted functions don't need critical thinking to optimise their functionality? How have you not consciously and critically thought about and improved upon your own Fe?

What is it you consider extraverted functions good at, in fact? Because without critical thinking, they must be a laughing stock to you.
 

Opal

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
1,391
MBTI Type
ENTP
I voted Ni, Ti and Fe. Depends on the kind of critical thinking though; this is geared toward interpersonal strategy.
 

á´…eparted

passages
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,265
I see your bullshit there and double it...:)

I think Ne just distorts external reality in favor of a more likeable one for the self...

Considering this description on wiki:



How is Ne (or Se, Te and Fe for that matter) inward directed and how does it improve and optimize one's internal thinking processes to remove self bias (which I think comes from Fi and Ti)?

Others have said it; all types have the ability to be excellent critical thinking, and all functions have the ability to be critical. Why? Because there is a wide variety of people who do preform this well. To claim that a function can't be critical, is just, well, rediculous.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
You truly believe that extraverted functions don't need critical thinking to optimise their functionality? How have you not consciously and critically thought about and improved upon your own Fe?

What is it you consider extraverted functions good at, in fact? Because without critical thinking, they must be a laughing stock to you.

No need to get angry...

Yes they need it, but they can't do it on their own... You cannot sharpen a blade on it's own, you need something else to temper it...

Extraverted functions OTOH are good at gathering data from the outside as well expressing one's self in the external environment...
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Others have said it; all types have the ability to be excellent critical thinking, and all functions have the ability to be critical. Why? Because there is a wide variety of people who do preform this well. To claim that a function can't be critical, is just, well, rediculous.

What if what you are saying is wrong?
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
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4dw
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sx/so
No need to get angry...

Yes they need it, but they can't do it on their own... You cannot sharpen a blade on it's own, you need something else to temper it...

Extraverted functions OTOH are good at gathering data from the outside as well expressing one's self in the external environment...

:thinking: I wasn't angry...it was a genuine question, actually. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

Honestly, I don't think you give extroverted functions enough credit. It aint my Fi that sharpens my Ne. Ne develops itself through being genuinely curious and following up on leads - as you said, by investigating the external environment- but it also runs analysis as it does. It doesn't just collect data - it contrasts and compares, notices little idiosyncrasies, it's mighty good at finding irony in things and it associates things with others to create the out-of-the-box thinking it is so known for. While there is no Fi valuing at that point, there certainly is organising, turning things upside down, seeing if odd ends form an entire puzzle and if patterns do consistently turn up. And each time it tries something new and gains success with that action, it'll take that new thing and try it out on the next bit of info that comes by - just to see if there is in fact a pattern of success there. And from there, an entire system, critically thought out, emerges, that is constantly improved upon.

Hell, if we take Se - have you ever actually gotten an Se-user to gush about their passion? The way a surfer talks about the waves...it's dazzling. The information they keep track of, the analysis of movement that they take so for granted, the instant taking into account of all circumstances - there is more data there than I could ever possible fathom. And the reason they often can push themselves into situations that would be detrimental to others is because of critical thinking in that *exact* moment. Because they know the ocean, that particular wave even so intimately. There's a constant analysis of all that vital data going on in the background as they're in the Zone. It's not just collecting data and expressing themselves. It's about doing something with that data that allows you to master the waves. And while Xi gives its own flavour to that experience and has something to do with it once the surfer does come in from the waves and processes what just went on - and that improves their capabilities - I'd consider it seriously underselling Se if you attributed all the critical thinking that took place in the moment to Xi.
 

á´…eparted

passages
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,265
No need to get angry...

Yes they need it, but they can't do it on their own... You cannot sharpen a blade on it's own, you need something else to temper it...

Extraverted functions OTOH are good at gathering data from the outside as well expressing one's self in the external environment...

She's not angry. If she was, you would know. You seem accuse people of anger quite often when they actually aren't. All kinds of negative traits really, when someone disagrees with you.

What if what you are saying is wrong?

...I'm not. Look around you, all different kinds of people are able to use critical thinking really well. That's the proof.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
:thinking: I wasn't angry...it was a genuine question, actually. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

Honestly, I don't think you give extroverted functions enough credit. It aint my Fi that sharpens my Ne. Ne develops itself through being genuinely curious and following up on leads - as you said, by investigating the external environment- but it also runs analysis as it does. It doesn't just collect data - it contrasts and compares, notices little idiosyncrasies, it's mighty good at finding irony in things and it associates things with others to create the out-of-the-box thinking it is so known for. While there is no Fi valuing at that point, there certainly is organising, turning things upside down, seeing if odd ends form an entire puzzle and if patterns do consistently turn up. And each time it tries something new and gains success with that action, it'll take that new thing and try it out on the next bit of info that comes by - just to see if there is in fact a pattern of success there. And from there, an entire system, critically thought out, emerges, that is constantly improved upon.

Hell, if we take Se - have you ever actually gotten an Se-user to gush about their passion? The way a surfer talks about the waves...it's dazzling. The information they keep track of, the analysis of movement that they take so for granted, the instant taking into account of all circumstances - there is more data there than I could ever possible fathom. And the reason they often can push themselves into situations that would be detrimental to others is because of critical thinking in that *exact* moment. Because they know the ocean, that particular wave even so intimately. There's a constant analysis of all that vital data going on in the background as they're in the Zone. It's not just collecting data and expressing themselves. It's about doing something with that data that allows you to master the waves. And while Xi gives its own flavour to that experience and has something to do with it once the surfer does come in from the waves and processes what just went on - and that improves their capabilities - I'd consider it seriously underselling Se if you attributed all the critical thinking that took place in the moment to Xi.

Ok, but the rational functions, T and F, are the ones that we make reasoning with... Ne is scanning the external environment for possibilities (alternate realities), Se is scanning the environment for exact real time data... they do not pass judgment, Fi or Ti does in that case for instance...

Internal judging (rational) functions are how you interpret (reason with) what you external (judging or perceiving) functions internalize from the outside... the latter two also serves as outlets as to how you express yourself... Ne for instance may allow one to adopt alternate personas to suit the environment or opportunize on the potential gains in the environment... Se OTOH may allow one to manipulate the environment physically so as to reach personal goals... They do not act on the internal reasoning functions (Fi or Ti)...

You need something introverted and independent of the reasoning functions that would act as an independent 3rd party on them so as to measure their effectiveness...

"purposeful, self-regulatory judgment which results in interpretation, analysis, evaluation, and inference, as well as explanation of the evidential, conceptual, methodological, criteriological, or contextual considerations upon which that judgement is based.

This description says one needs to check one's own judgment for integrity and errors... in essence, self-criticism...
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
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MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Ok, but the rational functions, T and F, are the ones that we make reasoning with... Ne is scanning the external environment for possibilities (alternate realities), Se is scanning the environment for exact real time data... they do not pass judgment, Fi or Ti does in that case for instance...

Internal judging (rational) functions are how you interpret (reason with) what you external (judging or perceiving) functions internalize from the outside... the latter two also serves as outlets as to how you express yourself... Ne for instance may allow one to adopt alternate personas to suit the environment or opportunize on the potential gains in the environment... Se OTOH may allow one to manipulate the environment physically so as to reach personal goals... They do not act on the internal reasoning functions (Fi or Ti)...

You need something introverted and independent of the reasoning functions that would act as an independent 3rd party on them so as to measure their effectiveness...



This description says one needs to check one's own judgment for integrity and errors... in essence, self-criticism...

And to you, the process I just described, the learning process that each function goes through....somehow doesn't do self-criticism? I really do think that you're not seeing just how much those function regularise their own mastery. And I fear I do not have the..proper language to explain this to your tertiary Ti as Ti just aint my strength so any argumentation I can give you is going to be futile. So, this is where I get off, as they say. Maybe someone will be able to more eloquently put together what I mean in a way that might click.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
And to you, the process I just described, the learning process that each function goes through....somehow doesn't do self-criticism? I really do think that you're not seeing just how much those function regularise their own mastery. And I fear I do not have the..proper language to explain this to your tertiary Ti as Ti just aint my strength so any argumentation I can give you is going to be futile. So, this is where I get off, as they say. Maybe someone will be able to more eloquently put together what I mean in a way that might click.

Thanks...

For others who might wanna continue on, I see what you are saying but that learning process is more like a trial and error process dependent on external feedback received... I don't think it is related to self-criticism or critical-thinking but on external criticism, feedback or boundaries... I don't have a proper name for it either... It feels more like "Bad thing happens if I do this so I shouldn't make it, and good thing happens if I do this so I should do it".... It requires a second party feedback to optimize itself...

thinking about one's thinking in a manner designed to organize and clarify, raise the efficiency of, and recognize errors and biases in one's own thinking. Critical thinking is not 'hard' thinking nor is it directed at solving problems (other than 'improving' one's own thinking). Critical thinking is inward-directed with the intent of maximizing the rationality of the thinker. One does not use critical thinking to solve problems - one uses critical thinking to improve one's process of thinking.

As you can see from the abovegiven, what's meant by critical-thinking is something that is not externally dependent but rather internally... Something that allows the person to optimize his\her internal processes from within on his\her own without the need for an external second or third party feedback...

It's ability to notice from time to time how one's reasoning may be at fault without the need for external feedback...

Edit: Critical thinking is proactive whereas trial and error is reactive...
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
I see critical thinking as a combination of separate faculties: entertaining possibilities, analyzing them, and evaluating them. Ideally, the process works fluidly as you reform your worldview - even if the only change in perspective winds up being the acknowledgement of someone else's. (Just recognizing what the perspective is and why it's there).

That said, it surprises me that Ne got thrashed in the polls, since even though it can be fickle, it suspends ideas in the mind's eye in a way that is separate from the core of one's worldview. It reflexively reaches out for alternatives, never quite content with being spoon fed.

Ne aside, Ti seems to be where it's at, since it boasts some of the aforementioned properties of Ne, while taking a systemic, structured route.

While I recognize that plenty of INTJs on this website exercise a decent amount of critical thinking skills, Te often takes ideas for granted on a subconscious level, equipping them for combat, but dropping them when they outlive their usefulness, where Ti might find a way to sharpen them until they elevate independent contemplation to an art form. Mental masturbation? Maybe. Probably. But even when it's idiotic, Ti resembles most of the same properties as critical thought.

Honestly, I believe that critical thought can incorporate any function, but absolutely needs T,F and Px.

Fi is simply critical. But yeah I do think my own type is an excellent candidate for one of the best critical thinkers. I rarely salvage anything worth bragging about in terms of being an INFP, but there it is and it feels good to say it.

But I think INTPs take the cake here. I'm not sure where Se stacks into all of this, since it should be effective en tandem with Ti especially. So I wonder, [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION], if your bias about Se is heavily formed by it being your inferior.

I would speculate that I have some bias regarding Te (Te doms tend to put me to shame when they implement their own brand of analysis, mostly because for them it's typically not a point of stress or a counter-phobic reaction), but you seem to be in agreement with me here on most of your points despite being an INTJ.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
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Messages
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ENTP
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Ti types have that logical analysis thing going on.

:laugh: yes thats a plus. But te users will go all "give
Me a solution right now. There is no such thing as pausing for 30 sec
To consider the system in all its myriad complexities"
 
R

Riva

Guest
Well the judging functions best to analyse data would be Ji (ti > fi probably).

To collect data and recall Si is the best is it not? (Which is/recallection is a necessity for critical thinking).

So i would say it's Ti and Si. Theoretically Fi Si should also be good (as OrangeAppled has pointed out on numerous occasions ;) ; though i must confess i can't picture/don't know how that works). Don't kill me.

However Se is the most objective perceiving function to the best of my learnings (which makes sense) and Te is the most objective judging function.

So i guess the most obective functions are Te Se.
Most equipped for critcal thinking are Ti and Si.
 

hjgbujhghg

I am
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
3,333
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Rational critical thinking is correlated with Ti. Analysis, creating own logical, methodical thinking, breaking things down to pieces, being interested in how things work... that's all part of crital thinking and Ti descriptions.
 

Rampant

New member
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Apr 15, 2014
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INTJ
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5w6
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sx/so
I'd say the Ti type defaults to the most basic definition of critical thinking by simple force of habit. They must think critically. They can't help it. Those poor souls.

I'm surprised to see Ni outranking Te. When evaluated together, if you had to describe one INJ more likely to gravitate toward classical critical thinking, it'd be the INTJ. I know when I feel like I'm evaluating and "thinking critically" Te seems at the vanguard, verifying Ni.
 

Noon

New member
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Jul 23, 2010
Messages
790
Ti
Fi
Ni

IXTP, IXFP, INXJ

Though I'd say inclined to rather than correlate to. Intelligence correlates best with critical thinking; functions fly or fall according to intelligence.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
I thought you developed critical thinking skills and weren't just born with them. It's not like an NT pops out of his mother and is a wiz at critical thinking. So I dunno
 

HongDou

navigating
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Nov 23, 2012
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5,191
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ENFP
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6w7
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so/sx
I put a vote for every type, because there's no option saying "none/all of the above"
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
I think critical thinking depends largely on the subject matter and the adaptability of the person.

I know some amazing critical thinkers in the STEM fields that don't have the first clue on how to think about their own emotional well being. I know people who can solve a problem between a family in a snap despite not knowing any of them, and yet you put a science-based question in front of them and they stumble.

Different fields take critical thinking in different ways. The same type of critical thinking that I have to use in my school currently is not even remotely the same process of critical thinking that is required for maintaining a family and relationship with others, nor is it the same critical thinking skills required to fix a car. Even though I can work my way through a science problem, I cannot work my way through fixing a car. I lack the type of thinking skill required for it. Sure, I can learn.. but I'd be largely depending on someone else's thinking abilities. I don't have those assets myself.
 
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