Which function do you think correlates best with having

[Ginkgo]

Good thread. 5/5

Will do some thinking on this and post later. Pun intended.

 

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

I think Ni, Ne, Fi, and Ti all can exemplify strong critical thinking skills.

That being said, I find Ni doms to be the best critical thinkers, in general.

(Ni is the dominant function most correlated with giftedness, after all).

INTPs can also be excellent critical thinkers, as can INFPs.

Same goes for ENTPs and ENFPs -- both types usually are.

Even some ISFPs can show solid critical thinking skills (FiNi?).

I don't find ISTPs to be very good critical thinkers, otoh.

Some can be better than others, tho (and some halfway decent).

I find Si and Se to both be rather against critical thinking.

(They look at everything too statically, aren't open to enough possibilities.)

And, interestingly, I don't really find Te nor Fe to be particularly good at critical thinking.

They serve some other function -- in the NJs, it's the Ni that does the critical thinking.

The SJs, ha, well... with well-developed Ne they can develop critical thinking.

Academically, yes, Ni users do the best. However, Ti is responsible for critical thinking that is not recorded like academic performance. I strongly disagree that Ni has superior critical thinking ability. I agree on everything else.


The reason Se, Si, Fe, Te are the worst at critical thinking? They're the most objective functions.


Oh, one more thing. What seperates Je from Ji?
Ji knows what you actually want. Je is superficial.

 

[Starry]

I have to say, I find it truly odd that Ne is last in this poll...

Considering the prerequisites people seem to associate with critical thinking in this thread, im kind of proud of Ne's last position, tbh. And not surprised at all. Ne is inclusive afterall. People seem to be associating critical thinking with reductive and dismissive qualities.

If Ne is last in the poll then no one is working with a cutting-edge/emerging/current definition of critical thinking. I imagine when industries could risk little by exploiting resources a dynamic/holistic definition and understanding of critical thinking was unnecessary...but as resources dwindle away...definitions of critical thinking have evolved to include words like intuition, innovation, creativity, relationships, empathy and yes, even emotional intelligence in some instances for their now recognized roles in superior critical analysis.

 

[Qlip]

If Ne is last in the poll then no one is working with a cutting-edge/emerging/current definition of critical thinking. I imagine when industries could risk little by exploiting resources a dynamic/holistic definition and understanding of critical thinking was unnecessary...but as resources dwindle away...definitions of critical thinking have evolved to include words like intuition, innovation, creativity, relationships, empathy and yes, even emotional intelligence in some instances for their now recognized roles in superior critical analysis.

And to use a vocabulary word that will make them T'ers itch less, Ne provides context and validation. The common Ti'er and Te'er mistakes involve stretching their premise long after reality begins protesting. External feedback and data is equally indispensable in critical thought.

 

[Starry]

And to use a vocabulary word that will make them T'ers itch less, Ne provides context and validation. The common Ti'er and Te'er mistakes involve stretching their premise long after reality begins protesting. External feedback and data is equally indispensable in critical thought.

omg I love you for coming in and adding to that. I'm so tired right now and after I posted I thought...maybe I should have waited and posted tomorrow haha. Yes man...exactly.

 

[jixmixfix]

And apparently you still can't read or critically think. (Surprise Surprise)

Really is that why I got an "A+" in critical thinking class in college, I'm glad to see your assumptions continue to fail. Nice try though

Ti can be good at critical thinking
Johnny uses Ti
Therefore, Johnny is good at critical thinking

This is a terrible example and doesn't portray your argument at all. Johnny is a person not a type are you even serious? let me help your illogical mind a little bit.

I think Ni, Ne, Fi, and Ti all can exemplify strong critical thinking skills.

This statement means that any type that possess any one of these functions has the potential to have strong critical thinking skills. Since ISTP's use Ti you must therefore conclude by your statement that all ISTP's must have the potential to have strong critical thinking skills.

I don't find ISTPs to be very good critical thinkers, otoh.

Here you contract yourself saying that all ISTP types are not good critical thinkers an obvious contradiction from your first statement.

Conclusion: Zarathustra has weak critical thinking skills.

 

[Zarathustra]

^ I'm sorry that your logical reasoning skills are so poor that you actually thought that was a legitimate argument.

Anyone with half a brain, tho, who reads the above will roll their eyes at your "argument", so, yeah, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[grey_beard]

I disagree on this. I think Ni plus Te is a very effective combination for critical thinking. It is what gets INTJs the reputation for being very critical and instinctively focusing on the flaws and shortcomings in everything. Also makes a very good BS detector. Ni points the way by getting that sense of when things are wrong somehow, when an analysis isn't even asking the right questions. Te then does the legwork of getting to the bottom of it, seeing how facts match claim - or fail to do so.

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] --

Concur.

As Major Chernyavin said in Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising, "Well done, Andrushka!"

 

[grey_beard]

I disagree. Sure, I don't think Sensors are as good at the INTJ (or in general the N) approach to critical thinking, but I think this is primarly down to a difference in situations people prefer to apply critical analysis. I think with Sensors it's much more oriented towards practical problem solving and workable solutions.

For example, my ISTP dad co-owns an earthmoving business and is an extremely skilled mechanic. I suppose most people see mechanical problem solving skills as being obvious: ie this part fits to this part and so on. However, it involves a vital combination of knowledge, experience and insightful analysis of facts.

My dad gets frequently calls from other companies from all over the country, asking him to help out with a problem over the phone. Sometimes multiple mechanics have been tearing their hair out for weeks trying to figure out how to fix a machine. They may have pulled it apart several times over, replaced parts, and tried adjusting everything they can think of, but nothing works. They explain the situation and my dad asks a whole bunch of very specific questions about all the signs the machine was giving off beforehand (eg. vibrations, lack of power, when problems occur), about the work that has been done, and relevant configurations. He almost always comes up with the solution within 10 minutes, without even having seen the machine - much to everyone's amazement.

I find this ability fascinating and I've asked about how he goes about it. Really what it comes down to, "go back to square one, follow the signs and assume nothing". When he describes others' approach it seems like they're just blinding stabbing in the dark, trying random stuff, and hoping for a magical solution. Whereas, he carefully analyses the factors themselves without leaping to conclusions and acts in a very deliberate manner. To me, this really demonstrates the shrewd gifts of Ti and Se. Se in particular gets a bad rap, but with my dad I can see how it basically functions as a fail-safe against inaccurate and unfounded N-style projections, that only distract from and conceal the truth. In a way, I suppose it seems entirely obvious, but then why isn't everyone doing it that way and why are they having so much trouble?

And when I look back over the wikipedia list I posted, I think my dad is very good at all those things. However, if you were to ask him about interpersonal problems, textual analysis, or conceptual thinking, he's at a loss. His skills are very specific to certain applications. Mine by comparison are more broad but are less useful in practical situations.

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] --

I'm a n00b here, and I've read some of your stuff, but this is the first time I can think of that I've posted *to* you.
Please don't take offense at this, (being an INFP and all), but --

I was all set to agree with [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] as an INTJ that Ni-Te rules, but you have just trumped me.

Coming from an INTJ, this is high praise.
You. Scoundrel.

Full Disclosure: TWEET! grey_beard asks for a review on instant replay.
...
...
...
on further review, the ruling stands. Your Dad and those like him rule, on critical thinking about SPECIFICS: INTJs retain the throne on critical thinking about trends and abstractions.
Offsetting penalties, no loss of down.

 

[animenagai]

I agree that XNFP's are often good at critical thinking (/inflates ego) but I don't really see it as a product of Fi.

To me it's Ne that does the heavy lifting. When that function is mature, it's very good at playing devil's advocate, questioning assumptions, and thinking about solutions. I don't really know what Fi does in terms of critical thinking, unless you mean thinking critically about values and emotions. If that's what people are implying, I don't really see how Fi has an advantage over other functions. Fi's good at thinking in its Fi way, Ni's good at thinking in its Ni way, Te's good at thinking in its Te way... what's the difference?

OK, now that all that's out of the way, let's talk about the other functions. I think Ni can be very good at taking a step back and looking at things from an other angle. However, it can also be the most blinding function out there. From what I can tell, Ni users are extremely selective, their filter's very strong, always trying to ask what's really happening?. So when they do detach from their super-ingrained perspective, it's a big deal, and they find it both important and illuminating. Compare that to Ne for example where strong users can see multiple perspectives all the freaking time. The moment I think of an argument or an idea, there's already a million voice in my head picking holes with it, thinking about alternatives, and solving the issues.

Te can be good at critical thinking, but it can get impatient. I've a lot of Te doms who just want to 'make a decision' swiftly and with conviction. That kind of thinking always annoys me, because it can lead to a lot of bad decisions.

The best function overall for (at least what I call) critical thinking is Ti. It's not perfect, I do get annoyed with some Ti doms who get too married to universal principals and overlooking the details and exceptions of a specific situation. It's just how Ti tends to work -- it takes one idea and plays around with it, trying to make it as perfect as possible. Once all that tweaking is done, the Ti user confidently takes that crystalised principal and generalises it into different situations. So yeah, they can make mistakes like that, but overall it's still probably the best at critical thinking.

 

[Amargith]

Conclusive answer to thread:

All of em in their respective fields - cant do critical thinking if you lack the necessary info or are too focused elsewhere to pick up on it. Yes, that includes Si and Se.


/ thread.

 

[highlander]

Ti types have that logical analysis thing going on.

 

[EJCC]

Conclusive answer to thread:

All of em in their respective fields - cant do critical thinking if you lack the necessary info or are too focused elsewhere to pick up on it. Yes, that includes Si and Se.


/ thread.

+1

 

[Coriolis]

on further review, the ruling stands. Your Dad and those like him rule, on critical thinking about SPECIFICS: INTJs retain the throne on critical thinking about trends and abstractions.
Offsetting penalties, no loss of down.

I did not claim that INTJs were the best critical thinkers, just pointed out how Ni-Te performs that function. Whoever wrote that different types do well at critical thinking in different areas or kinds of problems was on the right track.

 

[grey_beard]

I did not claim that INTJs were the best critical thinkers, just pointed out how Ni-Te performs that function. Whoever wrote that different types do well at critical thinking in different areas or kinds of problems was on the right track.

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] -- just when I was getting a good head of steam for INTJ-self-bragging (yes, I'm making fun of myself, not intending to indict you, even by association!) -- you ruin it with well-placed clarification & humility.

You are of course right: a quick skim of the thread led me to conclude that it was [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION], and [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] -- as far as I can tell, xNFPs all -- who wrote of different types doing well at critical thinking in different areas or kinds of problems.

How very -- Ne of them.

Take a bow, all of you! :hi:

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] -- just when I was getting a good head of steam for INTJ-self-bragging (yes, I'm making fun of myself, not intending to indict you, even by association!) -- you ruin it with well-placed clarification & humility.

You are of course right: a quick skim of the thread led me to conclude that it was [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION], and [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] -- as far as I can tell, xNFPs all -- who wrote of different types doing well at critical thinking in different areas or kinds of problems.

How very -- Ne of them.

Take a bow, all of you! :hi:

I still think it requires Ni rather than Ne... someone who have developed their shadow Ni can employ critical thinking if he/she wants to...

 

[Coriolis]

[How very -- Ne of them.

Well, Ne is bound to be good for something.

(Feel better now?)

 

[Amargith]

I still think it requires Ni rather than Ne... someone who have developed their shadow Ni can employ critical thinking if he/she wants to...

Bullshit - sorry.

What Ne does is look at things from different angles, contrast and compare and find the pattern within. We go long where you go deep. And in this case, we used that 'going long' to see the overarching pattern, instead of zero-ing in on one of em like the OP asked. That's all we did.

It's a trick question anyways, that the OP asked. A better thread title, based on the responses it received, would've been: 'Which function do you value more when it comes to their critical thinking capabilities?'

Each function has the capacity to process data at a mastery level - a level that will require critical thinking within that data pool in order to process it and organise it properly. There is no point playing the 'no, my dad is bigger and stronger than yours' game. They're all masters in their own field.

 

[Southern Kross]

I'm a n00b here, and I've read some of your stuff, but this is the first time I can think of that I've posted *to* you.
Please don't take offense at this, (being an INFP and all), but --

I was all set to agree with Coriolis as an INTJ that Ni-Te rules, but you have just trumped me.

Coming from an INTJ, this is high praise.
You. Scoundrel.

Full Disclosure: TWEET! grey_beard asks for a review on instant replay.
...
...
...
on further review, the ruling stands. Your Dad and those like him rule, on critical thinking about SPECIFICS: INTJs retain the throne on critical thinking about trends and abstractions.
Offsetting penalties, no loss of down.

That's very decent and humble of you to hear me out properly. I appreciate it.

It hasn't escaped my notice how many Ni-doms seem to be rushing to proclaim themselves kings. I totally agree that Ni achieves brilliant insights and, in many areas, betters all other functions, but the sheer level of presumption can create a blindspot by constricting (and even sometimes, distorting) the scope. I don't think we should underestimate the potential of other functions and how they can do things that Ni (or Ti) simply can't. I'm resisting the urge to mount a campaign in defence of Ne and Fi, because it seems both futile and silly to turn this thread into a, "my dad can beat up your dad" style competition.

 

[yeghor]

Bullshit - sorry.

What Ne does is look at things from different angles, contrast and compare and find the pattern within. We go long where you go deep. And in this case, we used that 'going long' to see the overarching pattern, instead of zero-ing in on one of em like the OP asked. That's all we did.

It's a trick question anyways, that the OP asked. A better thread title, based on the responses it received, would've been: 'Which function do you value more when it comes to their critical thinking capabilities?'

Each function has the capacity to process data at a mastery level - a level that will require critical thinking within that data pool in order to process it and organise it properly. There is no point playing the 'no, my dad is bigger and stronger than yours' game. They're all masters in their own field.

I see your bullshit there and double it...

I think Ne just distorts external reality in favor of a more likeable one for the self...

Considering this description on wiki:

thinking about one's thinking in a manner designed to organize and clarify, raise the efficiency of, and recognize errors and biases in one's own thinking. Critical thinking is not 'hard' thinking nor is it directed at solving problems (other than 'improving' one's own thinking). Critical thinking is inward-directed with the intent of maximizing the rationality of the thinker. One does not use critical thinking to solve problems - one uses critical thinking to improve one's process of thinking.[11]

How is Ne (or Se, Te and Fe for that matter) inward directed and how does it improve and optimize one's internal thinking processes to remove self bias (which I think comes from Fi and Ti)?