A Beautiful Mind

[colmena]

Watching Shine last night, about the pianist David Helfgott who suffers from schizoaffective disorder, and talking about Daniel Johnston (schizophrenic and bipolar, among a myriad of other things, I would imagine) on the "What are you listening to" thread, got me to thinking about repressed beauty of feeling and passion that manifests in profound art.

They have a block on their interpersonal expression, and the only way to get across how they feel is through music. It's tragic yet beautiful. Poe should have written a poem about it, or perhaps Poe is one of them.

The interesting thing about Daniel and David, is their relative normality in their youth, and the possibility that their disorders are heavily pathologically influenced (religion, social suppression). And as the disorder has progressed, it has become cumulatively self-inflicting.

In David Helfgott's situation, it seemed that his father's desire to isolate and push his son into becoming a virtuoso pianist (projecting dreams) created a self-fulfilling prophecy, and indirectly lead to his institutionalization.

Here's that article on the upsides of being down, again:
Paul Keedwell on the good that depression can bring | Society | The Guardian

Thoughts?

 

[Ilah]

First of all as far as expressing things. It is hard for me to put things from my Ni and Fi into plain words. It is easier to put them in poetry or art. I can sometimes draw things that I cannot say.

As far as the article:
So much to disagree with, I will just touch on my main points.

I have struggled with depression. I have talked with other people with depression, many of them artist. I have read a bit about depression. I have been in therapy.

The article claims depression forces you to contemplete, turn inward, etc. My primary is Ni - I am naturally contemplative and introspective. I did not need depression to force me to do it.

Artists and other creative types have significantly higher incidences of depression and manic-depression that the average population. However, this does not mean that depression causes creativity. While some use art to work though their depression, in general moderate to serve depression (the level that would rate an official diagnosis) causes apathy and decreases creativity. Art is created on the good days, not the times of depression. There is evidence that mania does increase artist drive.

Not stated in the article: medication(s) for depression can decrease your artistic drive and make you less creative. Some artists refuse to take medication for this reason. This can lead to the misperception that people are more creative when they were depressed. No, people were more creative when they are not medicated.

The article implies that the only treatment for depression is medication. A competent therapist can help, even if you can't identify an outside cause for you depression. While in therapy, I noticed I became more creative while recovering from depression without medication.

With regard to the constant portion of society with depression. It is entirely possible that depression can be triggered when a person who is different than the norm feels the pain or not fitting in, not being understood, the pressure to change who they are to be more accepted. (Note: I am not saying this accounts for all the causes of depression.) This will often be percieved by other people as a biologically based depression - because they can't understand why the person is depressed.

Ilah

 

[Mole]

Why did you title this, A Beautiful Mind?

My mental illness has destroyed my life. I think this guy is one of those retarded optimists who try to see the good in the bad. There is a good market for this kind of bullshit.

It is very difficult for those of sound mind to understand those with a psychosis.

So in trying to understand the psychotic, they first romanticize psychosis. Then when the psychotic don't measure up to the romantic ideal, they reject them.

And this is one of the sufferings of the psychotic - they are socially excluded.

And we at MBTI are not exempt - we have just recently banned a psychotic from MBTI.

This psychotic has been banned, that is, socially excluded from other sites and says so.

And we are no different - we are emotionally cruel to psychotics - we stick the knife in a little deeper.

 

[heart]

Surely there is a difference between the psychopath who lacks conscience and empathy, who gets off on hurting others and the truly psychotic? Typically the banned fall into the previous category. How responsible are we to pander to the control needs of the psychopath?

 

[Mole]

Surely there is a difference between the psychopath who lacks conscience and empathy, who gets off on hurting others and the truly psychotic? Typically the banned fall into the previous category. How responsible are we to pander to the control needs of the psychopath?

There is the psychopathic personality who is unempathic, controlling and attacks vulnerability but who is functional and often highly successful - such as many CEOs.

Then there is psychopathic personality disorder - and this is a mental illness - it is a diagnosable psychosis - and it is non-functional - and these psychotics are unsuccessful in life.

So there is the psychopathic personality which is simply a personality type and often quite successful in life. And there is the psychopathic personality disorder which is a mental illness - and they are unsuccessful in life.

I believe the person who has been banned has a mental illness, but not psychopathic personality disorder - but another type of mental illness.

And this banning only contributes to their suffering by socially excluding them.

I would like to see MBTI become a safe and welcoming place for those with a mental illness.

MBTI is already a tolerant and well run place. I think we should extend our tolerance to the mentally ill.

 

[heart]

There is the psychopathic personality who is unempathic, controlling and attacks vulnerability but who is functional and often highly successful - such as many CEOs.

Then there is psychopathic personality disorder - and this is a mental illness - it is a diagnosable psychosis - and it is non-functional - and these psychotics are unsuccessful in life.

So there is the psychopathic personality which is simply a personality type and often quite successful in life. And there is the psychopathic personality disorder which is a mental illness - and they are unsuccessful in life.

I believe the person who has been banned has a mental illness, but not psychopathic personality disorder - but another type of mental illness.

...

Thank you for the clarification.

I suppose it is that there are certain rules here that keep order and this board is very flexible and fluid in that way, very permissive, but if someone does nothing but break the rules over and over flagrantly they have can't be allowed any sort of special rights to distrupt the board over what any other member is allowed to do. I mean who would be in charge of deciding who was truly mentally ill and who was simply getting off on being a trickster?

 

[heart]

They have a block on their interpersonal expression, and the only way to get across how they feel is through music. It's tragic yet beautiful. Poe should have written a poem about it, or perhaps Poe is one of them.

I read about Poe that he really didn't like the genre that he wrote in but it was what the publishers would take at the time and he felt he had to write in it to make a living. I feel sad about that. I would want to see what he would have written from his true heart. Maybe this was part of what drove him to despair.

I wish we could see more art that was driven by what the artist wanted to create and less what the market hungered for. I think it would be something that would satisfy people more than much of the pap pumped out today.

 

[Mole]

Thank you for the clarification.

I suppose it is that there are certain rules here that keep order and this board is very flexible and fluid in that way, very permissive, but if someone does nothing but break the rules over and over flagrantly they have can't be allowed any sort of special rights to distrupt the board over what any other member is allowed to do. I mean who would be in charge of deciding who was truly mentally ill and who was simply getting off on being a trickster?

The mentally ill have been released quite recently from the Asylums - the mentally ill have been released from their prisons - they are now out in our community but we still shun them - we still ban them. This is called emotional cruelty.

So I invite all those of good will to join me in welcoming our sisters and brothers, particularly those with a mental illness, into MBTI and make them feel welcome.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I find comfort in depression. It's one of the few times I really let myself be, I guess, because things can't really get much worse. I end up dissociating gently and become very self-sufficient, which makes me calm and quiet. Definitely lends itself to introspection and intimacy both with one's self and with others.

 

[Mole]

I mean who would be in charge of deciding who was truly mentally ill and who was simply getting off on being a trickster?

These are neurotic words - they are directed entirely at control - these are words without understanding of those with a mental illness. These are words which justify emotional cruelty.

 

[Mole]

I find comfort in depression. It's one of the few times I really let myself be, I guess, because things can't really get much worse. I end up dissociating gently and become very self-sufficient, which makes me calm and quiet. Definitely lends itself to introspection and intimacy both with one's self and with others.

I think it is a good idea to distinguish between depression and Clinical Depression.

Clinical Depression is a psychosis described in DSM-IV. And it causes great suffering.

No one with Clinical Depression finds comfort in it. And Clinical Depression does not lend itself to introspection and intimacy with one's self and with others.

The confusion between depression and Clinical Depression only contributes to emotional cruelty towards those with a mental illness or psychosis.

Clinical Depression is a psychosis while depression is not.

 

[heart]

And we at MBTI are not exempt - we have just recently banned a psychotic from MBTI.

This psychotic has been banned, that is, socially excluded from other sites and says so.

And we are no different - we are emotionally cruel to psychotics - we stick the knife in a little deeper....

The mentally ill have been released quite recently from the Asylums - the mentally ill have been released from their prisons - they are now out in our community but we still shun them - we still ban them. This is called emotional cruelty.

So I invite all those of good will to join me in welcoming our sisters and brothers, particularly those with a mental illness, into MBTI and make them feel welcome.

These are neurotic words - they are directed entirely at control - these are words without understanding of those with a mental illness. These are words which justify emotional cruelty.

I have yet to witness someone banned from here strictly because they had a mental illness. People are banned because they break the (liberal) board standards too many times and I am guessing because it causes too much work for the volunteers to keep up.


Your request that people who repeatedly break the board standards be allowed to remain and continue to do on the basis of their being mentally ill places the people who run and operate this board (from their own free time and money) in the capacity of needing to be mental health professionals and to decide who is truly mentally ill and who is not and to provide some kind of safe haven where those declared mentally ill would be allowed to act out as they needed to. This board was never intended to be such as far as I can see from the FAQ.


There is nothing neurotic about saying your request goes beyond the scope and purpose of this board. From every indication this board is not a mental health support board, it is a MBTI discussion board.

 

[Ilah]

Many years ago I was on a board with a member who most likely had a mental illness (maybe more than one). Paranoid and antisocial I would guess. Probably naracistic, possibly delusional. She had unconventional views on subjects and would fly into a rage if anyone questioned her views or expressed an opinion she disagreed with. She would question your morals, intelligence, ability as parent, and whether you really love you child (amoung other things) if you disagreed with her views. Vicious personal attacks.

The board was unmoderated.

Other members sent private e-mails along the lines of "just ignore her" "she's just going through a rough patch in her life" etc. I tried, but being on the board was too emotionally stressful for me. I am guessing that the I was not the only one that didn't stick around.

So I wouldn't exclude someone for mental illness, but I would not allow a disruptive member to ruin others enjoyment of the board or drive others away. I think if their was a person who had occasional outbursts, but apologized afterward and was working on improvement I would make an exception, maybe with a temp ban for a time out.

Ilah

 

[Perseus]

The Divided Self is just Cognitive Dissonance. The symptoms can be treated.

Or rather the symptoms can be treated if they are as a result of external stressors, rather than internal memories. And if the patient is healthy blood pressure-wise.

 

[heart]

Interesting article, but low marks in school don't mean low intelligence though, can simply mean something is preventing the person from applying themselves.

BBC NEWS | Health | Low marks linked to schizophrenia

Saturday, 9 August 2008 00:03 UK

"UK and Swedish researchers followed more than 900,000 children born between 1973 and 1983.

The Psychological Medicine paper found getting an E grade in any GCSE-stage exam was linked to a doubling of the small risk of developing schizophrenia.

But a mental health charity said the illness was often linked with high, rather than low, intelligence...."