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dropping hints vs being direct

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his culture is insanely direct

I wasn't there long to fully get a grip on it, but in Taiwan they're very direct, even with your physical appearance like, "You from America? You have fat cheeks." Or in my case of course "You very handsome, johnnyyukon!" haha

But really, and in Korea I think it's worse. Like, if you're nose is crooked or you're too fat, they'll let you know.

I don't think it's meant to be insulting, per se (like I said, didn't get full understanding) but more just getting it out in the open.
 

prplchknz

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[MENTION=4347]Antisocial one[/MENTION] relayed back in the day that his culture is insanely direct, that they would run circles around Americans in that respect.

(And then bluntly tell them that they were running circles around them? Running circles rather than dancing circles? I dunno, someone should do something with that.)

It was an interesting read. Too bad I forgot everything about it, including his country. Oops.

I always find this, in contrast, also interesting: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof

omg
T'aarof also governs the rules of hospitality: a host is obliged to offer anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it. This ritual may repeat itself several times before the host and guest finally determine whether the host's offer and the guest's refusal are real or simply polite. It is possible to ask someone not to t'aarof ("t'aarof nakonid"), but that raises new difficulties, since the request itself might be a devious type of t'aarof.

that's like deciding where to eat with someone. or offering to pay someone back. As soon as they go, oh don't worry about it. I go ok. But then do something nice for them at a later date, like buy them dinner or something. I don't care to go back and forth
 

prplchknz

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[MENTION=4347]Antisocial one[/MENTION] relayed back in the day that his culture is insanely direct, that they would run circles around Americans in that respect.

(And then bluntly tell them that they were running circles around them? Running circles rather than dancing circles? I dunno, someone should do something with that.)

It was an interesting read. Too bad I forgot everything about it, including his country. Oops.

I always find this, in contrast, also interesting: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof

omg
T'aarof also governs the rules of hospitality: a host is obliged to offer anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it. This ritual may repeat itself several times before the host and guest finally determine whether the host's offer and the guest's refusal are real or simply polite. It is possible to ask someone not to t'aarof ("t'aarof nakonid"), but that raises new difficulties, since the request itself might be a devious type of t'aarof.

that's like deciding where to eat with someone. or offering to pay someone back. As soon as they go, oh don't worry about it. I go ok. But then do something nice for them at a later date, like buy them dinner or something. I don't care to go back and forth
 

Mole

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Being direct is likely to activate someone's psychological defences, this is actually rude, it's bad manners, and is completely counterproductive to understanding.

Being direct is like taking control of someone and directing their response. So being direct is itself a social defence.

And unless we are limited to one liners like the Americans, humour itself is indirect.

Also being indirect is way of building trust over time.

And being indirect requires a subtlety and skill.
 
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Being direct is likely to activate someone's psychological defences, this is actually rude, it's bad manners,

I don't know if you watch Hannibal, but if you're rude to him, he kills you and eats you. He's very big on manners.
 

Mole

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I don't know if you watch Hannibal, but if you're rude to him, he kills you and eats you. He's very big on manners.

Hannibal from Cathage in the Mediterranean opposite Rome, was direct with Rome. Hannibal was rude to Rome, and indeed humiliated Rome, and Rome never forgot.

Cato the Elder, the great Roman Senator, finished all his speeches with Cathago delenda est (Cathage must be destroyed).

So the Romans sailed across to Cathage, killed every man, woman and child, and every beast and bird. Then the Romans destroyed the city of Cathage stone by stone until nothing remained, then they sowed the fields around the city with salt.

So when you are tempted to be direct, remember Cathago delenda est.
 
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So when you are tempted to be direct, remember Cathago delenda est.

Haha, that I will. But are you aware I was speaking of Hannibal Lecter? Not sure if the fictional character was named after the general or not.

Also the brilliant (though fictitious) parable of Pai Mei:

Once upon a time......in China......some believe around the year......one double aught-three....head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei, was walking down a road......contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite powers would contemplate -which is another way of saying, "Who knows?"
-when a Shaolin monk appeared on the road,
traveling in the opposite direction.

As the monk and the priest
crossed paths......Pai Mei......in a practically unfathomable
display of generosity,
gave the monk the slightest of nods.

The nod...
...was not returned.

Now, was it the intention
of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei?
Or did he just fail to see
the generous social gesture?

The motives of the monk
remain unknown.
What is known...
...were the consequences.

The next morning, Pai Mei
appeared at the Shaolin temple...
...and demanded
of the temple's head abbot
that he offer Pai Mei his neck
to repay the insult.

The abbot, at first,
tried to console Pai Mei.
Only to find Pai Mei was...

...inconsolable.

So began...

...the Massacre of the Shaolin Temple,
and all sixty of the monks inside,
at the fists of the White Lotus.
 

cafe

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Being indirect can allow the other person to save face.
 

prplchknz

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Being indirect can allow the other person to save face.

which translate to: "I'm a pussy, so i'm gonna lie to you and tell you how I didn't mean what I said, even though I did, and I still think what I said"
 

cafe

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which translate to: "I'm a pussy, so i'm gonna lie to you and tell you how I didn't mean what I said, even though I did, and I still think what I said"
If the person does not get what is being communicated to them, then it does not work.

If they do get it, they can make a course correction without having whatever stupid shit they were doing thrown straight into their face, which can be a bit gentler.
 

cafe

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which translate to: "I'm a pussy, so i'm gonna lie to you and tell you how I didn't mean what I said, even though I did, and I still think what I said"
If the person does not get what is being communicated to them, then it does not work.

If they do get it, they can make a course correction without having whatever stupid shit they were doing thrown straight into their face, which can be a bit gentler.
 

prplchknz

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If the person does not get what is being communicated to them, then it does not work.

If they do get it, they can make a course correction without having whatever stupid shit they were doing thrown straight into their face, which can be a bit gentler.

i thought save face meant like being fake and pretending nothing's wrong when it is with the other person.
 

cafe

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i thought save face meant like being fake and pretending nothing's wrong when it is with the other person.
To me it means not causing the other person undue embarrassment or emotional discomfort.

I appreciate it when someone does that for me, if I get the message. I don't always.
 

prplchknz

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To me it means not causing the other person undue embarrassment or emotional discomfort.

I appreciate it when someone does that for me, if I get the message. I don't always.

that's different, then I retract what I first said.
 

entropie

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pooping hints or being direct both implies that you are right
 

Z Buck McFate

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It’s interesting to see the different reasons people assume others aren’t direct.

For myself, a lot of it is laziness. There are some people who pick up on things and can (believe it or not) rather accurately figure out what’s going on without me needing to spell it out in a literal way. I generally only get close to people I vibe with in this way because it’s too difficult, for me, to figure out what to say every single time something annoys me. It’s too much of a distraction. I’d say it’s important to be able to articulate what’s wrong- because not many people get 100% control over who they must interact with regularly, and sometimes it's necessary- but I’d be miserable if I had to do this all the time with the people I’m close to.

Also there's the saving face thing that cafe described. Like I said in the other thread- I always drops hints first as some kind of warning because being direct immediately- to some people- causes a whole lot more embarrassment or emotional discomfort than is necessary.

I generally err on the direct side. The reason for this is that indirect can come off as passive aggressive and there isn't much I dislike more than that. However, I made an effort to learn how to be direct while being diplomatic (tactful) and I'm better at it. I'm not great, I never will be, I leave that to my ENFJ but at least most people don't want to punch me in the mouth/start crying anymore. In relationships, you have to be at least a little indirect. This is all part of the scenery and it adds layers of flavor/buildup/intrigue that seems to be enjoyed. In the end, not every situation can be handled delicately or tactfully and you have to be direct, you just need to learn how to know when those times are.

LOL. (@ “anymore”)
 

Cellmold

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And I get annoyed when people expect me to take one. It gets tiresome trying to figure out what someone means when they won't just come out and say it. I actually find this kind of pussyfooting around rather disrespectful. People who use it are either trying to be manipulative, or underestimating my ability to handle a direct statement.

Well I'll confess that I'm sometimes indirect because I'm a massive neurotic, but I try not to be and I end up being perhaps overly honest about certain things.

I was just thinking in regards to your post if there are other people like that, (undoubtedly so I'd imagine), and maybe that contributes to the issue of indirectness.
 

prplchknz

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I was thinking on this, and I think one of the reasons I have issues with indirectness is, more than once some one has tried dropping hints. And I don't notice, so I keep doing what's making them mad. And when they are finally direct with me, I feel ten times worse, than if they were just upfront.

Like one that sticks out really well in my mind. Is my sister-in-law would say goodmorning, one day she quit. I hadn't noticed so I don't think anything of it, or maybe I did but didn't bother me. Finally she was like "did you notice, I stopped saying good morning?" and I was like "no" and she told me how it's considered polite to say good morning even if you don't feel like it. or someone will drop a hint about something I shouldn't do, I'll completely miss the hint, and piss them off, and 9 out of 10 times, they'll assume I'm just being defiant. sometimes I get the hints, not all the time. It's just I feel worse, because even though I can be a social fuck up, I really don't want to be.
 

small.wonder

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[MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION] I hear you and totally relate to your above statement. When someone is upset with you or something you have done, it is not your responsibility to somehow magically know or pick up hints. It is their responsibility to communicate that to you in an honest way. Unlike you I do notice the hints people drop most of the time, but I will blatantly ignore them if it's in the context of conflict. It's not my responsibility to play a game and spare someone the big boy pants required to confront a problem. I do not do passive aggressive, and if anything I will eventually just shatter the bubble with something like, "but what you're really trying to say is that you are super insecure and angry because I beat you at bowling. Perhaps we could communicate like adults if you would just speak your mind." It is the duty of each adult human to be accountable for the way they communicate, especially in regards to hurt, disgruntlement or otherwise serious emotion that needs to be addressed.

That said, I do pick up hints in other, more casual/playful situations. This is just lighthearted banter for the most part and has no unspoken negative undertones. I do tend to use the phrase "there's a little truth in every 'just kidding'" if I feel that there is though. It tends to gently do the trick.
 
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