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The American Collective Psyche and Advertising

Thalassa

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You and Hard are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. Hard is correct in saying critical thinking can overcome much of commercial influence, but I think he greatly overestimates the average person's ability (or perhaps inclination) to think critically.

Still commercialism is inevitable, and it's not even that bad a thing. For the most part, these companies are selling you things you want, although advertising by intent tries to make you want them more (by doing things like associating status with a brand etc.). However, as long as you can think critically enough to recognize a corporation is trying to exploit you to maximize its' profit, you should be able to defend yourself easy enough. And some people dearly want status, so they pay for it (so for example, instead of wearing a $30 pair of perfectly functional sneakers, they pay > $100 for the most trendy brand of the season).

But the person making the choice needs to accept some responsibility. They can't just claim they have been "brainwashed" by advertising. They probably have been influenced, but if they aren't conscious of that influence, I think there has been some willful blindness on their part.

If something happened when you were a child, you were brainwashed. That's why I think anarcho capitalism is absurd in its assertion that people choose...no, adults choose. All things being fair isn't a possibility when you and millions of others already made profits for the.people who will destroy your environment and ship your jobs to China before anyone told you what was going on.

And selling people what they want is the biggest lie. My grandfather knew that because he was born before television. Selling people what they want is the creepiest fucking thing people believe. No, you were TRAINED to think you wanted it by being bombarded with advertisers.

Of course I take personal responsibility for my adult self. I don't watch tv or listen to radio so I am no longer assaulted by advertising. And once you do that, you take control of your choices now. But even so, you were already used to put fiscal despots in power, despots you have been so convinced already there is no use fighting against.

I think a lot of people can't handle the truth, it's like an acid trip, because it actually examines parts of the American psyche you have been brainwashed to accept as "reality."

People don't want to hear it. It's easier for them to be a trained bear.
 

Forever_Jung

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If something happened when you were a child, you were brainwashed. That's why I think anarcho capitalism is absurd in its assertion that people choose...no, adults choose. All things being fair isn't a possibility when you and millions of others already made profits for the.people who will destroy your environment and ship your jobs to China before anyone told you what was going on.

And selling people what they want is the biggest lie. My grandfather knew that because he was born before television. Selling people what they want is the creepiest fucking thing people believe. No, you were TRAINED to think you wanted it by being bombarded with advertisers.

Of course I take personal responsibility for my adult self. I don't watch tv or listen to radio so I am no longer assaulted by advertising. And once you do that, you take control of your choices now. But even so, you were already used to put fiscal despots in power, despots you have been so convinced already there is no use fighting against.

I think a lot of people can't handle the truth, it's like an acid trip, because it actually examines parts of the American psyche you have been brainwashed to accept as "reality."

People don't want to hear it. It's easier for them to be a trained bear.

I more or less agree with the sentiment of this thread. When I watch TV with my friends (it happens on occasion), I basically deconstruct all of the commercials out loud, just to make sure I'm staying vigilant, and to maybe save my friends from being sucked in. I'm REALLY popular. :cry:

Edit: That being said, I'm still pretty brainwashed. More than I will ever know.
 

Thalassa

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This subject sums up why I have pretty much not related to many other people in my life.

One of the reasons why I don't relate to them, is cause I don't have strong sentimental attachment to things. Including childhood memories. Especially things like brand names. I don't relate much to Si in general. Details of my past do not stay with me. The only thing that does stay with me is the essence of the experience.

That being said, I woke up about this subject at quite a young age. And I most definitely didn't fit in in school, simply because I didn't care about wearing the newest thing or what not.

It is a little disheartening when one realizes that all the literal and metaphorical shit we've been fed and trusted, since childhood, has never had meaning. I have never felt any resemblance of a sense of community because of this. And that's because i refuse to participate in a community which bases its significance on what they've been told to. It's a catch 22. You want to be accepted for who you are and feel a sense of belonging, but the ways in which some(probably even most) people get accepted is by not being who they are. :shrug:

Yeah that is why it has such cultural importance. I have noticed that people who were completely sheltered from it in particular as young adults have social issues. Not because anything is wrong with them, but because they don't recognize cultural markers or even have less aggressive attitudes (I think American people are trained to be competitive and want to achieve) they don't fit in.

And it's painful for the people who do wake up to be told everything they know is a lie. Television is a hypnotic tool. Subliminal advertising has been used since the forties. I can barely go on facebook sometimes because some of the people I went to high school with will probably never wake up. They will be good little tools, and how do conscious people fight that without hurting the tools themselves.
 

Thalassa

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I more or less agree with the sentiment of this thread. When I watch TV with my friends (it happens on occasion), I basically deconstruct all of the commercials out loud, just to make sure I'm staying vigilant, and to maybe save my friends from being sucked in. I'm REALLY popular. :cry:

Edit: That being said, I'm still pretty brainwashed. More than I will ever know.

Well that's what I realized about myself. No matter how aware I am and make conscious choices today, everything I have ever known from mass media is a part of me, good and bad. I relate to pop culture and American advertising history. Even though I approach it like a conscious collector, it's part of my American psyche. It's part of my history and boy do I like history.

Even when I watch you tube I try to not listen to the occasional commercial they toss out. It's difficult to live as an American without commercialism.

Facebook invades everyone's private lives, literally, but all my old friends and family are there.

Truly evil exploitation is used. They put you in a position to where you practically have to become a fucking hermit who denies your own past to avoid it entirely. I am sure that is easier for a very small number of people.
 

rav3n

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Fuck culture and national identity. Identify yourself to yourself, within your boundaries with reasonable consideration for others and the rest will fall into place.

Idealism and competitive edge is at heart of the worst in humanity. Idealism because it breeds and fosters extremity; competitive edge because of idealism whereby people leverage off others because of a lack of self and dependency on collective opinion.
 

Thalassa

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Fuck culture and national identity. Identify yourself to yourself, within your boundaries with reasonable consideration for others and the rest will fall into place.

Idealism and competitive edge is at heart of the worst in humanity. Idealism because it breeds and fosters extremity; competitive edge because of idealism whereby people leverage off others because of a lack of self and dependency on collective opinion.

That's easier said than done even for people who consider themselves individuals.

I can't say fuck culture. I am a Cultural Realist and I am going to want to discuss it.

However, it's easier to do that with things that genuinely hold no interest for you. But even subculture is culture.

Maybe for you, you don't have fascination for cultural markers of certain periods of American history. I do. Including the decade of my childhood, and most of the 20th century.
 

rav3n

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That's easier said than done even for people who consider themselves individuals.

I can't say fuck culture. I am a Cultural Realist and I am going to want to discuss it.

However, it's easier to do that with things that genuinely hold no interest for you. But even subculture is culture.

Maybe for you, you don't have fascination for cultural markers of certain periods of American history. I do. Including the decade of my childhood, and most of the 20th century.
Such an inaccuracy and not what I stated. Historical periods are interesting where the evolution of sociological change can help to explain the society of today. Society is also interesting, including and especially the games people play where even though context differs, even from micro to macro and so forth, the underlying games remain the same.

My perspective surrounds the `being at mercy of` perspective. That`s a false paradigm but as victim, it`s the most powerful position in any transactional analysis triangle. The victim can`t be held responsible so they must be saved.
 

á´…eparted

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What you have said, and what you have replied to others here with, is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. But you're preaching it like it's a self-evident fact (when it's not). It's impossible for anyone to make any ground against you, because you have set the condition of "if you disagree, you're brainwashed and haven't seen the light!". Which, isn't how this works. This isn't really any different than some forms of religious claims. As it goes "I say god exists, and you can't prove me wrong, so he exists and I am right!". No. That's circular logic, and that is what you're applying here, and circular logic does not work. This highlights those points:

actually examines parts of the American psyche you have been brainwashed to accept as "reality."

People don't want to hear it. It's easier for them to be a trained bear.

...

And it's painful for the people who do wake up to be told everything they know is a lie. Television is a hypnotic tool. Subliminal advertising has been used since the forties.

So, we don't agree because we don't want to or haven't seen the light? We wouldn't be discussing this if this was self-evident (which it's not) like you're claiming. That's not how discussions like this work, and you can't tout this as reality without support. Subliminal advertizing doesn't have nearly the effect people claim. Recently they found that it does have a slight effect (which I was surprised to learn), but it's very minor, and not all that different than every day subconscious decisions we make all the time. You're making this out to be FAR more severe than it actually is, and it simply is not that way. The article addresses that too.

I'll ask you again. What alternative is there? You do indirectly suggest it; live as a hermit. But, that's not practical to do. I'll say it again, this is how the world is. It's so ingrained in modern society that it can not be undone. What we CAN do, is stay as informed and aware as we can be, make informed decisions, and take measures against those who cause actual tangible problems. Such as mistreating workers, covering up harmful consumer products, corporate fraud, monopolizing, price gouging. I'm a HUGE Elizabeth Warren supporter, and she is really championing this cause. Cause believe it or not, I actually share your core value of being anti-corporate abuse. What I don't agree with at all, is that advertizement is inheriently evil, that all business is bad because it's business, and all those at high positions are evil. You haven't given anything that suggests that it is other than personal opinion of what you have experienced. It just strikes me as "sheeple! Fuck the system! Because it's the system!" and I just don't take well to that at all, as it causes more problems than it tries to fix.
 

Thalassa

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What you have said, and what you have replied to others here with, is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. But you're preaching it like it's a self-evident fact (when it's not). It's impossible for anyone to make any ground against you, because you have set the condition of "if you disagree, you're brainwashed and haven't seen the light!". Which, isn't how this works. This isn't really any different than some forms of religious claims. As it goes "I say god exists, and you can't prove me wrong, so he exists and I am right!". No. That's circular logic, and that is what you're applying here, and circular logic does not work. This highlights those points:



So, we don't agree because we don't want to or haven't seen the light? We wouldn't be discussing this if this was self-evident (which it's not) like you're claiming. That's not how discussions like this work, and you can't tout this as reality without support. Subliminal advertizing doesn't have nearly the effect people claim. Recently they found that it does have a slight effect (which I was surprised to learn), but it's very minor, and not all that different than every day subconscious decisions we make all the time. You're making this out to be FAR more severe than it actually is, and it simply is not that way. The article addresses that too.

I'll ask you again. What alternative is there? You do indirectly suggest it; live as a hermit. But, that's not practical to do. I'll say it again, this is how the world is. It's so ingrained in modern society that it can not be undone. What we CAN do, is stay as informed and aware as we can be, make informed decisions, and take measures against those who cause actual tangible problems. Such as mistreating workers, covering up harmful consumer products, corporate fraud, monopolizing, price gouging. I'm a HUGE Elizabeth Warren supporter, and she is really championing this cause. Cause believe it or not, I actually share your core value of being anti-corporate abuse. What I don't agree with at all, is that advertizement is inheriently evil, that all business is bad because it's business, and all those at high positions are evil. You haven't given anything that suggests that it is other than personal opinion of what you have experienced. It just strikes me as "sheeple! Fuck the system! Because it's the system!" and I just don't take well to that at all, as it causes more problems than it tries to fix.

It's so pathetic that you keep insisting that this is the way the world is, in such a manner that you seem to feel powerless to change it, so why is the world this way, and why are you powerless to it, if it's not because we have been made sheeple who piece by piece make Nabisco and McDonald's and Apple our kings.

You are so in denial that you are not going to be reached. You seem to think that the world got this way through nature or magic, and not systemic guidance of the proles.

Furthermore I never said all business was bad. I am all for small business and ethical companies like I stated earlier.
 

á´…eparted

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It's so pathetic that you keep insisting that this is the way the world is, in such a manner that you seem to feel powerless to change it, so why is the world this way, and why are you powerless to it, if it's not because we have been made sheeple who piece by piece make Nabisco and McDonald's and Apple our kings.

You are so in denial that you are not going to be reached. You seem to think that the world got this way through nature or magic, and not systemic guidance of the proles.

So I'm pathetic for having a different opinion?

You're using circular logic, again. You simply claim that I am in denial. Ok, how and why should I take that seriously? I say that, because if we were to change it, we'd have to uproot the entire foundation of commertialism and the finaical world would be completely destroyed. People have been advertizing since the dawn of time. Even at little bazzar huts by word of mouth only. People shouting "buy my beans! they're the best this side of the river!". It's human nature to do this. This is why I am saying that. I don't have unfounded reasons for doing so. At no point did I say or think that the world got this way by magic. It is the way it is because this is human behavior. Everyone wants to survive. Some make a living by making a trade and selling/trading items. It's been done since the dawn of time. It's inevitable that individuals are going to do their best to increase their profit and increase the chance of something being bought.

You're trying to invalidate everything I am saying, because I don't agree. As I said, the way you have framed your argument, it makes it impossible for anyone to disagree. That's not how this works, and that's also what I am trying to point out. EDIT: You also seem to have ignored the link I posted about subliminal messaging.
 

Thalassa

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One of the most hilarious things you said [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] is that Americans have great teeth because of science. Yeah, all of those creationists spend tons of money on tooth care because a scientist told them to. I bought Crest whitening strips because it's science.

Even if scientists created these inventions, American people seem to take it far beyond hygiene. Who reinforced that narrative to them day after day? Dr. Horowitz?

No, Close Up, Aqua Fresh and Colgate did. Other countries have science too, Hard. Lol.
 

Thalassa

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So I'm pathetic for having a different opinion?

You're using circular logic, again. You simply claim that I am in denial. Ok, how and why should I take that seriously? I say that, because if we were to change it, we'd have to uproot the entire foundation of commertialism and the finaical world would be completely destroyed. People have been advertizing since the dawn of time. Even at little bazzar huts by word of mouth only. People shouting "buy my beans! they're the best this side of the river!". It's human nature to do this. This is why I am saying that. I don't have unfounded reasons for doing so. At no point did I say or think that the world got this way by magic. It is the way it is because this is human behavior. Everyone wants to survive. Some make a living by making a trade and selling/trading items. It's been done since the dawn of time. It's inevitable that individuals are going to do their best to increase their profit and increase the chance of something being bought.

You're trying to invalidate everything I am saying, because I don't agree. As I said, the way you have framed your argument, it makes it impossible for anyone to disagree. That's not how this works, and that's also what I am trying to point out. EDIT: You also seem to have ignored the link I posted about subliminal messaging.

Corporations aren't business or capitalism. I am not missing your point. There is a huge difference. And yes, I disagree with you. You are not going to win. I already acquiesced to points about ethical business. That doesn't make what I say any less true.

I mean, Twinkies don't even taste good. Why wouldn't you eat a fresh bakery cake. You really seem willfully naive to me.
 

á´…eparted

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One of the most hilarious things you said [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] is that Americans have great teeth because of science. Yeah, all of those creationists spend tons of money on tooth care because a scientist told them to. I bought Crest whitening strips because it's science.

Even if scientists created these inventions, American people seem to take it far beyond hygiene. Who reinforced that narrative to them day after day? Dr. Horowitz?

No, Close Up, Aqua Fresh and Colgate did. Other countries have science too, Hard. Lol.

I did, because science is what made it known that it needs to exist, and pushed companies to produce toothpaste for individuals to buy. It's been around for so long that it's common knowledge that you have to brush your teeth or problems can arise, and that thought has formed because of the science behind how fluoride works.
 

á´…eparted

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Corporations aren't business or capitalism. I am not missing your point. There is a huge difference. And yes, I disagree with you. You are not going to win. I already acquiesced to points about ethical business. That doesn't make what I say any less true.

I mean, Twinkies don't even taste good. Why wouldn't you eat a fresh bakery cake. You really seem willfully naive to me.

Ah, so there is the honesty we need. So now it's clear to me, and everyone else in this thread that discussing this issue with unless they agree with you, that it is completely pointless, and doesn't need to be taken seriously because you've already made your mind up on circumstantial and circular logic.

And for the record, I don't eat twinkes either, I don't think they taste good. You say I am willfully ignorant, but guess what, I'm not.

Guess we'll end this here because you've openly admitted unwillingness to listen, and that you're not worth discussing this with. You haven't refuted much of what I have said anyway.
 

Thalassa

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Ah, so there is the honesty we need. So now it's clear to me, and everyone else in this thread that discussing this issue with unless they agree with you, that it is completely pointless, and doesn't need to be taken seriously because you've already made your mind up on circumstantial and circular logic.

And for the record, I don't eat twinkes either, I don't think they taste good. You say I am willfully ignorant, but guess what, I'm not.

Guess we'll end this here because you've openly admitted unwillingness to listen, and that you're not worth discussing this with. You haven't refuted much of what I have said anyway.

I said willfully naive, not ignorant. And yes, I know what you are doing, you are trying to win. You wouldn't keep replying if you didn't want to win.

You see, advertising is complex. I even dated someone who worked in advertising. There are so many psychological tricks, simple repetition until something is normal or nostalgic is one of them.

So what if you don't eat Twinkies. Millions of people do, instead of eating bakery or home baked cake. Now take the word Twinkie and replace it with any disgusting, processed, cheap bland brandname food you can think of.

You are comical because you don't want to see my point either, no matter how much I explain.
 

Thalassa

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I did, because science is what made it known that it needs to exist, and pushed companies to produce toothpaste for individuals to buy. It's been around for so long that it's common knowledge that you have to brush your teeth or problems can arise, and that thought has formed because of the science behind how fluoride works.

I can assure you that is not why the average American has their teeth whitened. It's not even about decay anymore, and when advertising for toothpaste began, people were not big on science en masse. A disturbing few still aren't. People do things because tv told them to. That includes adults. Our cultural ideas of normality have shifted wildly thanks to advertising.
 

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Marketing is well beyond "I have the best beans this side of the river" nowadays. It's not brainwashing to try and sell something to another person, but it becomes brainwashing when billions of dollars are spent to bombard everyone in mainstream society with sales pitches fortified by subtle psychological conditioning and manipulation. You browse the internet, you watch TV, you go to sports games, you get on a bus, you listen to the radio, ADS EVERYWHERE: You're fat/hungry/smelly/a nobody/ugly/lonely/lame/etc, buy this and you won't be. Then you buy it, and you still feel shitty...what happened?

I'm not blaming any one business/person, but when the entire culture is consumed by consumption, it becomes problematic. The epic of Commerce that is the USA creates way more businesses/products than we could ever need. And since there are so many businesses, each business has to work that much harder to make their products stand out. Consequently they dig for any advantage they can get, any possible way they can get it through our saturated minds that we want what they sell. That's why John B. Watson, the father of behaviourism, took so naturally to the advertising world. He knew how to condition people. Like it or not, that shit gets in your head, especially when you're little. So much is decided at such a young age.

It's just exhausting.

Also, I really like this David Foster Wallace quote about advertising, and it seems like a good time as any to post it:

“An ad that pretends to be art is -- at absolute best -- like somebody who smiles warmly at you only because he wants something from you. This is dishonest, but what's sinister is the cumulative effect that such dishonesty has on us: since it offers a perfect facsimile or simulacrum of goodwill without goodwill's real spirit, it messes with our heads and eventually starts upping our defenses even in cases of genuine smiles and real art and true goodwill. It makes us feel confused and lonely and impotent and angry and scared. It causes despair."
 

Thalassa

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Marketing is well beyond "I have the best beans this side of the river" nowadays. It's not brainwashing to try and sell something to another person, but it becomes brainwashing when billions of dollars are spent to bombard everyone in mainstream society with sales pitches fortified by subtle psychological conditioning and manipulation. You browse the internet, you watch TV, you go to sports games, you get on a bus, you listen to the radio, ADS EVERYWHERE: You're fat/hungry/smelly/a nobody/ugly/lonely/lame/etc, buy this and you won't be. Then you buy it, and you still feel shitty...what happened?

I'm not blaming any one business/person, but when the entire culture is consumed by consumption, it becomes problematic. The epic of Commerce that is the USA creates way more businesses/products than we could ever need. And since there are so many businesses, each business has to work that much harder to make their products stand out. Consequently they dig for any advantage they can get, any possible way they can get it through our saturated minds that we want what they sell. That's why John B. Watson, the father of behaviourism, took so naturally to the advertising world. He knew how to condition people. Like it or not, that shit gets in your head, especially when you're little. So much is decided at such a young age.

It's just exhausting.

Also, I really like this David Foster Wallace quote about advertising, and it seems like a good time as any to post it:

“An ad that pretends to be art is -- at absolute best -- like somebody who smiles warmly at you only because he wants something from you. This is dishonest, but what's sinister is the cumulative effect that such dishonesty has on us: since it offers a perfect facsimile or simulacrum of goodwill without goodwill's real spirit, it messes with our heads and eventually starts upping our defenses even in cases of genuine smiles and real art and true goodwill. It makes us feel confused and lonely and impotent and angry and scared. It causes despair."

That is a great quote, and interestingly one of the things I have heard about how Americans seem to non-American people, we can be like that inauthentic smiling ad that is loud and friendly, but at core not a true intimate.

Of course not all Americans are this way, but it's a cultural trait I have heard from others.

And yes the reason advertising is especially insidious to children is not because I am one of those omg think of the children people, but because I studied child development in college, and know from reflecting on my own childhood, that it simply sticks better when you are little. Like learning a language.

I find myself actually happy to see network sound bites and doll commercials from the early 80s because that was like formative years. My Nestle example is actually from my real life. I remember the Alpine White romantic Nestle commercials from the late 80s. When you are that age you make associations you might not make as an adult.

And yes it matters if teens think they are worthless without xyz brand product. Those teens are human beings and will eventually become adults usually.

Even our standard of beauty became rigid, or changes with marketing trends.

It's powerful. That's cool when everyone has fresh breath, but what about all of the other effects, including unconsciously putting certain people in scary positions of economic power that outresources any royalties who ever lived.
 

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Yeah that is why it has such cultural importance. I have noticed that people who were completely sheltered from it in particular as young adults have social issues. Not because anything is iwrong with them, but because they don't recognize cultural markers or even have less aggressive attitudes (I think American people are trained to be competitive and want to achieve) they don't fit in.

And it's painful for the people who do wake up to be told everything they know is a lie. Television is a hypnotic tool. Subliminal advertising has been used since the forties. I can barely go on facebook sometimes because some of the people I went to high school with will probably never wake up. They will be good little tools, and how do conscious people fight that without hurting the tools themselves.

In my eyes it's just a schism. There are still chill people out there. I wouldn't say that a lot of people have woken up to the harmfulness of our domestication process though. And I would argue that's probably where everything begins. I think that change can start with parents. But its not like one generation has started the fire. And it's going to take time for everyone to get on the same page.

So the answer is that we can't fight it in the ways that we're accustomed. You have to be a good role model. You have to let your own light shine so that others can follow. It's not an easy road. :laugh: that's why you don't see many people taking it. People get discouraged very easily and are prone to let others take the leadership role when the going gets rough. But what they don't realize is that they are the only ones that can really lead themselves.
 

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And yes the Nestle Alpine White commercial is comical to me as a grown woman. But to pre pubescent me, that was beautiful. Music videos even were kind of like that in the mid to late 80s. They were probably trying to cash in on Send Me an Angel '89.

Point being, I subconsciously trusted Nestle from then on, even if I didn't think of unicorns and guys in white sweaters.

Much of what creeps me out is that. Just saying oh ok I am used to seeing this brand, so I will buy it again.
 
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