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Are psychologists worth it?

danseen

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Well let us compare a prosperous, peaceful democratic country without psychologists.

Yes, Japan has so few psychologists, it's as though they don't exist.

And what is the result of this? The result is that Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

In fact psychologists are so scarce in Japan that Japanese who are suffering from Depression are advised to enroll in an English speaking class because the foreigner will listen to them.

It's their culture, as is similar in China. Not all cultures view suicide the same way.

It's not even my place to say it's healthy, since it's not for me to say how the Japanese should structure their society.
 

danseen

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haha... so you're saying that a common attitude amongst people is not a threat on perceived territory?

Or that some people feel they hold a "greater right to things"? I may be an INTP and do weigh up things rationally, but then if you presume everything is metaphysically controlled then this is opinion and not fact. It's little to do with INTPness (though i generally don't care about logic, but then I think I'm an atypical INTP).
 

two cents

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Well kind of. But then according to them:

- I deserve to be beaten up because I'm reserved
- I am "bad" for being an atheist and that doing things most don't is "wrong"
- I am wrong to like casual sex, and it's something "not done"

(and, in response, Lark posted the following)

You're posting in this thread alone leads me to suspect there's more to this than meets the eye.

I think there's grounds to believe, from this thread alone, that you're rationalising your behaviour, behaviour you admittedly dont want to give up or refrain from and which are being challenged by your therapist rather than validated.

If you are supposed to be working with a therapist to overcome or change this behaviour and you are unwilling to have it challenged I'm really not sure what you will achieve. There's too much resistance for analysis, if its a depth psychologist, if its cognitive behaviour therapy, rational emotive behaviour therapy or any of the variations on those themes then there's really has to be a desire to change in the client.

Like I say you're finding fault in the therapeutic process and your therapist but you should be looking to your self instead.


Wow. Just wow. Both of these posts are beyond the pale, though for different reasons.

First of all, danseen, what you are describing from your therapist is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. It's unprofessional, it's unethical, it's unhelpful, it's fractally wrong! And yes, that's a clear case of patient abuse.

If a licensed therapist said that to you, that is grounds for them to lose their license. If, as the content of the therapist's statements makes me think, this is some kind of church-associated intervention, someone needs to investigate them and shut them down (and take away their license if they even have one).

Lark, whatever you may think of danseen based on his (her?) posts, assuming he is truthfully and accurately reporting his experience with the therapist, you have no room to turn your criticism to his reaction to said therapist.

Which behavior are you referring to when you say "that you're rationalising your behaviour, behaviour you admittedly dont want to give up or refrain from and which are being challenged by your therapist rather than validated"? Are you speaking of being reserved, being an atheist, casual sex or "doing things most don't" (which is not specified and could apply to ANY unconventional behavior).

For the time being, I'll just assume that "doing things most don't" doesn't refer to violent or criminal behavior (which the therapist might be obligated to report to authorities), in which case, the therapist has no business passing value judgements. Their job is to help the client function within themselves and within society. Labelling nonconformity as "wrong" is not the way to do it. Furthermore, a client's religious beliefs are none of the therapist's business, let alone grounds for criticism or ridicule. Being reserved MAY be a problem for the client and their relationships... and suggesting that this could or should be corrected through physical violence is not only NOT an acceptable treatment technique, it's advocating abuse, and could even constitute a threat. And as far as liking casual sex is concerned, the therapist is not there to pass moral judgment on the client, and the only way the client's sex life is their business is if it's causing the client distress or making them unable to function in their personal/professional life. The bar for "casual sex" being a problem is so high that either the client is unable to stop long enough to go to work or get their chores done or the client is engaging in behavior that could constitute rape.

From the description danseen gives, he is completely justified to sever all ties with the therapist immediately, and, at the very least call that what it was, abuse. He may also have grounds for legal action. This has nothing to do with deflection, not want to change, or anything of the sort. Suggesting anyone put up with this treatment for any amount of time is advocating abuse and blaming the victim. That's not cool, whatever you may think of danseen personally.
 

two cents

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Ok, now maybe I should reply to the OP like I originally meant to.

Yes, therapists can be worth it. When a therapist is working out for a client, it can make a huge difference in that client's life. I've had a few therapists in my life, and, although only one was worth it, he was so worth it, he made me think the whole enterprise wasn't pointless.

There have been studies (here's one such: http://www.apadivisions.org/division-31/publications/articles/british-columbia/beihl-hans.pdf) and meta-studies recently that all point to the fact that the therapist/client relationship is as important or more important than the specific technique a therapist uses. So, while, for instance, CBT has the most data backing up its effectiveness in a wide range of applications, even a therapist that doesn't use it can help their client as much or more... by simply being warm, supportive, and empathetic. Obviously, a client/therapist relationship doesn't just boil down to warmth/empathy/support on the therapist's part, so it seems that finding the right match between the client and the therapist (which also has to do with how the client's problems dovetail with the therapist's preferred techniques) is the most important factor to treatment success.

Which all boils down to: psychologists are worth it when you find the right psychologist for you. Otherwise they are a waste of time and money (which appears to be the experience of a lot of people in this thread).
 

danseen

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My basic point is that "psychologists" tell me things that are not even ethical by their own professional standards, and they unfairly critique things I do that the many engage in.

So millions in Europe are not atheists, don't have casual sex, or are not reserved? is it normal to feel anybody "deserves" to be beaten up? Is this condoned in modern Western society? even if it is, that doesn't mean it's inherently justified.

I simply think psycholologists have a plot to get at me, because they don't like me and want to hurt me. Sounds paranoid, granted, but then if normal social rules, rights and principles don't apply to me, then what else should I think? ;) I think most psychologists think I am "not nice", but then I don't kill, rape, or steal from people and most humans are a mix of benevolent and malevolent traits, so "not nice" should be clearly defined. :wink:
 

danseen

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And I continue to think some here are threatened by my actions, but that's the issue of strangers, not myself. :D
 

Lark

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Lark, whatever you may think of danseen based on his (her?) posts, assuming he is truthfully and accurately reporting his experience with the therapist, you have no room to turn your criticism to his reaction to said therapist.

Well, I suppose that's the whole of it then isnt it?

Assuming they are truthful.

And why are you assuming they are truthful? I based what I wrote on what was actually occuring within the thread, what were you reaching your conclusions on the basis of?
 

Lark

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Ok, now maybe I should reply to the OP like I originally meant to.

Yes, therapists can be worth it. When a therapist is working out for a client, it can make a huge difference in that client's life. I've had a few therapists in my life, and, although only one was worth it, he was so worth it, he made me think the whole enterprise wasn't pointless.

There have been studies (here's one such: http://www.apadivisions.org/division-31/publications/articles/british-columbia/beihl-hans.pdf) and meta-studies recently that all point to the fact that the therapist/client relationship is as important or more important than the specific technique a therapist uses. So, while, for instance, CBT has the most data backing up its effectiveness in a wide range of applications, even a therapist that doesn't use it can help their client as much or more... by simply being warm, supportive, and empathetic. Obviously, a client/therapist relationship doesn't just boil down to warmth/empathy/support on the therapist's part, so it seems that finding the right match between the client and the therapist (which also has to do with how the client's problems dovetail with the therapist's preferred techniques) is the most important factor to treatment success.

Which all boils down to: psychologists are worth it when you find the right psychologist for you. Otherwise they are a waste of time and money (which appears to be the experience of a lot of people in this thread).

It certainly does seem that a lot of people are coming to the thread with their own baggage about therapists.

Are you really going to pay someone to provide you with warmth/empathy/support?

That sounds a lot like just paying someone for validation, like I said in my first responses to Danseen, who I have no prior contact with or opinion of.

I dont think that therapy is purely about seeking validation and agreement, someone to reflect your values and tell you life is great and you can do no wrong.

I'm sorry if some people have had bad experiences of therapists and they've brought that o the table, what about therapists or helping professionals who've had experiences of clients who hate to be challenged? Who're apt to deflect with drama, vitriol, complaints and even litigation?

Who'd be a psych eh?
 

Lark

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My basic point is that "psychologists" tell me things that are not even ethical by their own professional standards, and they unfairly critique things I do that the many engage in.

So millions in Europe are not atheists, don't have casual sex, or are not reserved? is it normal to feel anybody "deserves" to be beaten up? Is this condoned in modern Western society? even if it is, that doesn't mean it's inherently justified.

I simply think psycholologists have a plot to get at me, because they don't like me and want to hurt me. Sounds paranoid, granted, but then if normal social rules, rights and principles don't apply to me, then what else should I think? ;) I think most psychologists think I am "not nice", but then I don't kill, rape, or steal from people and most humans are a mix of benevolent and malevolent traits, so "not nice" should be clearly defined. :wink:

Why yes, yes it does. What about that?
 
G

Ginkgo

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And I continue to think some here are threatened by my actions, but that's the issue of strangers, not myself. :D

You would be right, though I think it may be too soon to assume the psychologists you're describing are trying to hurt you. They may simply be negligent and disrespectful of others' belief systems. This often comes hand-in-hand with fundamentalism, though it's certainly not limited to just that. Either way, I think they're breaking the principles their clinics/hospitals/health centers hold them by.

Still, I'm curious as to what rationale your psychologists had for critiquing casual sex.
 

Lark

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haha... so you're saying that a common attitude amongst people is not a threat on perceived territory?

Or that some people feel they hold a "greater right to things"? I may be an INTP and do weigh up things rationally, but then if you presume everything is metaphysically controlled then this is opinion and not fact. It's little to do with INTPness (though i generally don't care about logic, but then I think I'm an atypical INTP).

^ If I heard someone speaking like that in real life I'd refer to their speech as at best "garbbled" and at worse nonsensical.

Your posts in the thread so far have been pretty defensive, you respond to people giving you advice or simply trying to participate in an accusitory way, suggesting they are threatened and getting into a conflict footing as quickly as possible.

This is simply what I've observed from your posts. It doesnt make for communication, instead it obstructs communication.

You're using a lot of language which conveys very little, it looks verbose and obtuse, perhaps you're trying to impress upon forum posters that you're a "pretty smart guy" and that's, as I say, unnecessary, you're building walls and not bridges with that sort of communication.

Although it all belies someone whose ego is pretty fragile and is highly deployed in their interaction with others, which itself would be suggestive of some sort of narcissism.

Whether that's just the age you are, it associated with adolescence a lot in sources I have read, or perhaps developmental stage, maturational processes can be blocked in all sorts of ways so someones chronological age doesnt reflect their functioning, its impossible to know from the information available in the thread.
 

Lark

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er.. it's clear that this is what was insinuated.

Also, not all people are logical. And many here do say they engage in friends with benefits.

I dont believe that anything was insinuated, how do conclude that it was clearly insinuated?

What baring upon the thread has either your conclusion that not all people are logical or your observation about what some posters have disclosed/posted about their sex lives?

I'm afraid this appears to me just like further defensiveness and conflict as a deflection, if this is what you're doing in the thread I can only suspect it is also what you're doing in person in your interaction with your "psych".
 

Lark

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Life is reciprocal, is it not?

Also Lark and others were hostile to me, so I will be hostile in kind. if we're all strangers, so be it.

You're discussing life now? Alright, did you know you were posting a reply to me or did you choose to refer to me in the third person when posting directly to me?

I dont believe that anyone was hostile you at all. The posters who responded to you did not validate your points, maybe you felt that equally they were failing to validate you when that happened.

That can happen a lot when people begin discussions online, we've had discussions about "safe spaces" and things to that effect in the wider forum community as a result. However, given the topic of the thread and how you've choosen to interact with people I think its perhaps a little more than that.

Hostility isnt a good strategy for communicating with people or holding discussions. Although perhaps you can report back on how its working out for you now that you've identified its a definite choice you're going to make or behaviour you will opt for?

Good luck with that. ;)
 

danseen

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^ If I heard someone speaking like that in real life I'd refer to their speech as at best "garbbled" and at worse nonsensical.

Your posts in the thread so far have been pretty defensive, you respond to people giving you advice or simply trying to participate in an accusitory way, suggesting they are threatened and getting into a conflict footing as quickly as possible.

I'm saying that I'm not a typical INTP. And?
This is simply what I've observed from your posts. It doesnt make for communication, instead it obstructs communication.

If you are hostile, then so am I. Why do you presume strangers must owe you their time? If you respond in a hostile manner, others will to you.
You're using a lot of language which conveys very little, it looks verbose and obtuse, perhaps you're trying to impress upon forum posters that you're a "pretty smart guy" and that's, as I say, unnecessary, you're building walls and not bridges with that sort of communication.

So you resent intelligence, which I don't believe I am, and hold an unhealthy attitude towards it? Ok....
Although it all belies someone whose ego is pretty fragile and is highly deployed in their interaction with others, which itself would be suggestive of some sort of narcissism.

Narcissism? No, you mocked my posts and OP, so this is how people respond. I never mock anybody's posts here, since if you truly don't care then it makes no sense to post.
Whether that's just the age you are, it associated with adolescence a lot in sources I have read, or perhaps developmental stage, maturational processes can be blocked in all sorts of ways so someones chronological age doesnt reflect their functioning, its impossible to know from the information available in the thread.

haha.. If you make judgments of me, I make them of you. You're insinuting you hold some "upper hand" here, but I don't know nor care...
 

danseen

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I dont believe that anything was insinuated, how do conclude that it was clearly insinuated?

What baring upon the thread has either your conclusion that not all people are logical or your observation about what some posters have disclosed/posted about their sex lives?

I'm afraid this appears to me just like further defensiveness and conflict as a deflection, if this is what you're doing in the thread I can only suspect it is also what you're doing in person in your interaction with your "psych".

yes, it was. You meant all to say that casual sex is bad, yet if you all have friends with benefits, how is it truly bad?

It seems you feel threatened that others intrude on your perceived territory, but then you can never seemingly prove how you're the virtuous party. I sense that you feel threatened that I have casual sex, since you feel only "cools" as yourself should. I'm a free human being, I do as I please. That is grounded in fact, not some empty social norm I don't care about (nor need/want to at 34 years).
 

danseen

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You're discussing life now? Alright, did you know you were posting a reply to me or did you choose to refer to me in the third person when posting directly to me?

I dont believe that anyone was hostile you at all. The posters who responded to you did not validate your points, maybe you felt that equally they were failing to validate you when that happened.

That can happen a lot when people begin discussions online, we've had discussions about "safe spaces" and things to that effect in the wider forum community as a result. However, given the topic of the thread and how you've choosen to interact with people I think its perhaps a little more than that.

Hostility isnt a good strategy for communicating with people or holding discussions. Although perhaps you can report back on how its working out for you now that you've identified its a definite choice you're going to make or behaviour you will opt for?

Good luck with that. ;)

Er.. no.

I posted, you all said or affirmed "GTFO out of here". Now, I do not "get" communications?

You yourself have used an ascerbic (eek!!! "high class language" haha.. how do you know I'm not a linguist, or a writer, or an academic? Perhaps such "wording" is second nature to me. Seems you have issues with intellect, since from your posts you like to mock it...) tone with me, so I respond in kind. You have said I am "ill", and that the "issue is with me" regarding therapists.

Not all language is subjective, it cannot be by definition. If I call somebody an idiot, then this holds a clear meaning. If I call an animal a tiger, this holds a clear meaning.

Then again, I'm not interested in any discussion, since I don't get why I must be "kind" to some stranger online who does not seem to reciporate based on his or her bias and insecurity. I doubt you interact with strangers in real life this way, and I frankly have stuff to do in the real world that's more pressing, you know like shopping, watching TV, going out to bars (which psychologists hate :)) and being with my gf.

I would continue to contend that you feel threatened over what I have said, and that you have insecurity issues.
 
A

A window to the soul

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Since everyone else is having trouble communicating with you, let me give it a shot...

meh, er, eh, haha


I take it this isn't your first rodeo.


:banned:
 

danseen

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yes, common mannerisms are evil, i get it. language isn't always precise, but I like how you often project your standards onto others...

This is the Internet, not an MBA examination.
 

two cents

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It certainly does seem that a lot of people are coming to the thread with their own baggage about therapists.

Are you really going to pay someone to provide you with warmth/empathy/support?

That sounds a lot like just paying someone for validation, like I said in my first responses to Danseen, who I have no prior contact with or opinion of.

I dont think that therapy is purely about seeking validation and agreement, someone to reflect your values and tell you life is great and you can do no wrong.

The point of therapy is not "to pay someone to provide you with warmth/empathy/support". A therapist needs to be warm empathetic and supportive in order to form a good relationship with the client, gain their trust, and help foster cooperation. Psychotherapy is not something a therapist does TO the client, it is something both of them cooperate on. The goal is to help the client cope and be better-adjusted (and the specifics are highly dependent on a situation). A therapist isn't there to "correct" the client, tell them what to do, or to substitute their judgement for the client's. If, and it's a big IF, a client's judgement is, in fact suspect and is causing the client problems, the therapist is to help the client develop it, by teaching specific reasoning tools/techniques, and, perhaps, providing alternative perspectives/scenarios.

Based on what you've said so far, it seems to me that your understanding of psychotherapy is based mostly on psychoanalytic theory/practice. Well, bad news: any "science" behind psychoanalysis has been demonstrated to be made up wholesale, and has no evidence to support it. If there's anything at all in Freud's theories (or those of some of his followers) that has any relation to reality, that is purely coincidental. The practice of psychotherapy has moved on since.
 

two cents

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Well, I suppose that's the whole of it then isnt it?

Assuming they are truthful.

And why are you assuming they are truthful? I based what I wrote on what was actually occuring within the thread, what were you reaching your conclusions on the basis of?


Do you make a habit of assuming that whatever a person says they are lying? Nothing danseen has said about his experience is out of the realm of possibility. Unless you have specific (and weighty) reasons to believe that his report of being victimized by a therapist is a fabrication, why jump to that conclusion? Perhaps you don't like what he has said in this thread, or even in others, maybe you think he is an asshole, maybe you actually agree that being reserved/atheist/nonconformist or liking casual sex are somehow wrong, that still doesn't prove that his report is a lie, or make the behavior he describes from his therapist even remotely acceptable.
 
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