Can empathy be learned?

[INTP]

It can be developed.

 

[INTP]

F7 vs T5

I think it's interesting that as for as the neocortex goes, there are two "mirror neuron" regions (using Nardi's terms):

F7 - "Imaginative Mimic" - Mirroring other's behavior, imaginatively entering into other situations and "what if" scenarios

T5 - "Sensitive Mediator" - Noticing and responding to social cues, wondering how others evaluate you, being embarrassed

I think F7 sounds kind of Ne (with a little F/Fi flavor, as far as mirroring), and T5 sounds somewhat Fe. Nardi did find that FJ was associated with T5, and Ne with F7. But the T5 association was a little more complex (see below).

Regardless, I do think it's interesting that mirror neurons are divided into who separate regions, both of which might relate to empathy in different ways.

Nardi and T5 (an aside)

T5, the region of the neocortex related to attending to social feedback and feeling ashamed/embarrassed, is used heavily by Fe types (and seems to be an obvious fit for at least some qualities we associate with Fe).

Conversely, ISTPs tended to show the least activity in T5, with some ISTPs never showing any activity in the region no matter how embarrassing the situation in the lab. INTPs generally showed low activity in T5 as well. However, when that region finally activated for INTPs in the lab, it tended to spill over into neighboring speech and movement centers (which may be one reason why most of us, regardless of type, get clumsy and tongue-tied when embarrassed).

T5 is also used by heavily by male FPs, but far less so by female FPs... but what does that mean (Nardi didn't speculate on that, that I recall)? Could it mean that male FPs tend to feel more socially constrained than female FPs (and so perhaps are less likely to be visibly quirky)? Do male FPs learn to blend socially for some reason (social pressure)?

Of course, some studies have also shown that men tend to use T5 for facial recognition, which might explain a greater use of T5 in male FPs.

i think reducing all this empathy stuff to those regions is too simplistic. there are mirror neurons all over the brains, those regions just have a lot of them packed tightly. also they are interacting with areas that are normally used without mirroring. for example there is a region that has to do with motor planning, which happens to be next to the are which mirrors actions of others. this motor planning area next to one of the mirroring areas can be triggered by the mirroring area next to it as if it were triggered by other areas. also when it does fire, it will send signals to areas which are actually responsible for the moving of the arm or what ever. however when the movement of the arm for example gets triggered by the mirror system, its not going to be that strong activation than it would be if you were actually moving the arm. that is because there is signal coming from your arm that is sending signals to the motor areas saying that "im not moving" or "im not being touched", so that you wouldnt think that your arm is moving when someone else is moving their arm.
this is also to show that any area alone isnt that important when it comes to higher psychic functions, but those functions are a combination of different areas working together in particular manner. for example all that i explained earlier, is only mirroring the other person and not really empathy, unless it triggers some emotional reaction in your that you would associate with the person you are mirroring.

if you arent very close to your own emotions(or are in some way emotionally retarded), you cant really have well developed empathy(as in for its strength and accuracy). at least for me, my empathy skyrocketed when i got more in tune with my F side. the mirroring part has been there and working just fine from early age(altho doesent come even close to my INFP friend who often automatically makes the same face as you do if you exaggerate it enough ).

 

[Halla74]

What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?

IMHO, yes.
Doing so takes work.
Some of that work is obvious, such as reading and thinking about the concept of empathy.
The harder part of that work is talking with others, obtaining their perspectives on empathy, and identifying why they value empathy.
Hardest still is looking within yourself to develop a concept for something that is not a strong, innate behavior/cognitive thought process.
If you are able to do that though, then applying one's newly formed concept of empathy to life's phenomena as they occur moving forward is possible, and gets more natural with practice over time.

I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.

Agreed. No behavioral change of any kind is possible without the will of the person instituting the change.

What do you think?

See above please.

Absolutely it can be learned.

The only question is if it is learned consciously or subconsciously - much of it is learned by anyone, but for some it isn't an intentional learning process, but just how their family operated or something.

I like that you've pointed out this distinction.

Although my Mom and Dad were very present and supportive, they are both very stoic, and thus there was a deficit of me being able to "witness the expression of empathy" in many simple day to day contexts.

I think there are also some instinctual aspects to it like a strong mothering/nurturing instinct makes someone more naturally aware.

I see this in my children.
My wife is very empathetic and they have learned this from her, for which I am grateful.

I am required to have empathy for some of my jobs, and so I work at it very intentionally and with significant effort. I think this has helped me progress with it.

Interesting!
I did not realize that appropriately expressing empathy in the melee of my career would have any benefit, but it really does.
People are more prone to commit to your endeavor if they feel that you understand them and their circumstances, and that you know how it feels for them to be doing what they must at that time.
It's a very subtle but very compelling buttress to having authenticity and being able to project executive presence.

First of all we should define empathy.

Hot damn!
I love it when INTPs talk about emotions and feelings & stuff!

If you mean cognitive empathy, i.e. knowing/understanding what the other person is experiencing: yes

This can definitely be learned by careful observation. Psychopaths train themselves to read others. People with Asperbergs can learn it, as far as I know.

Mimicking the behavior of others, always a good means of learning.

If you mean affective empathy, i.e. having a (socially) appropriate emotional reaction to another person's emotions, sharing their emotions: probably not

I think it's possible, but as I noted above, I don't think it's easy.
Trying to do it is worth it, IMHO.
It's a growth experience...

I think the latter has a lot to do with mirror neurons. Not sure how much of a fixture their strength is, i.e. if you are born with very active mirror centers or if they develope as they are trained.
My hunch is that a good part of it is either hardwired or set at an early age.

Now that's always interesting to ponder.
How much of our behavior is attributed to our wiring, and how was our wiring schematic finalized as we grew and matured?

It's funny you should mention this as I have long been wondering about the relationship not only between affective empathy and mirror neurons but also between those two and Fe/Fi

I'd love to hear your findings as such whenever that time comes.

Some people do teach themselves to read and write. There are children to figure out how who read by the age of three or five even with minimal or no help. I've seen people self-teach almost any skill and knowledge. In general the self-teaching process may not be as efficient as having a trained guide and teacher, but for certain minds and personalities it can even be more efficient than with the wrong mentor. You see this process more with people at either end of the norm. The gifted/genius child self teaches the majority of concepts and teachers just guide in places. I even have developmentally delayed autistic students who have taught themselves how to transpose chord progressions to any key.

I think the bolded portion above is simply amazing.



-Halla74

 

[Mole]

I don't empathize with people who don't want to learn how to empathize...LMAO

You know how people feel when they don't want to learn, but you don't feel it yourself - this is called empathy.

 

[Mole]

Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.

However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.

 

[Stanton Moore]

It can be learned.

 

[Mole]

It can be learned.

But the fact is that almost no one learns to empathise unless they are compelled to learn for their job.

Just as almost no one learns to read and write unless they are compelled by Law to go to school.

This is because reading and writing and empathising are counter-intuitive and unnatural.

 

[Coriolis]

Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.

However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.

But some of us did exactly that, at least with the piano. I won't make any claims about empathy. And some of us learned to read long before we set foot in a school.

 

[Azure Flame]

What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?

I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.

What do you think?

No. Empathy is earned. Using myself and many INTJ's I know as examples, you're not going to see us give two shits about things we believe aren't worth the effort. Empathy isn't something thinkers can just toss around everywhere, that shit is draining. We have to be selective about it.

If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life. Once you manage to put your ego beneath mine, I suddenly become the most humble and caring person you'll ever meet.

I spent 5 years in the military with people telling me I should "care more." I still have no idea what they were talking about, and when I tried to "care" about things I didn't actually care about, I became neurotic and suicidal. One day I stopped trying, and all my problems went away and I suddenly started making more friends.

Moral of the story, be who you are and the people who love you for that will stick around. The people who don't, don't deserve your time.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Moral of the story, be who you are and the people who love you for that will stick around. The people who don't, don't deserve your time.

Actually, I agree with this. Trying to get the approval of others is a waste of time, a fool's errand.

 

[Mole]

If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life.

This is the classic authoritarian position.

And it is a military position where we first learn to take orders before we can give orders.

However I for one have not the slightest intention of putting myself under the orders of an authoritarian.

 

[Azure Flame]

This is the classic authoritarian position.

And it is a military position where we first learn to take orders before we can give orders.

However I for one have not the slightest intention of putting myself under the orders of an authoritarian.

I respect your stance, but warn that you will never meet what stands behind the facade of an ESTP 8 until you do so. To tell an ESTP to change who they are is to tell a baboon to grow hair on its ugly ass.

 

[Thalassa]

No. Empathetic people are born sensitive, hardened by life, and retrieve empathy again in some point in adulthood through love.

Any "asshole" you see becoming empathetic later, their mom will tell you what a sweet, sensitive or emotional child they once were.

People don't learn empathy they're reminded.

People who don't have it as children are not redeemable and they are pretending to manipulate you. That's why I think the death penalty should exist for sociopaths.

God may love you, but that doesn't mean it's safe for you to be around other people.

Most people can be REMINDED through love.

 

[Thalassa]

If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life. Once you manage to put your ego beneath mine, I suddenly become the most humble and caring person you'll ever meet

This is pretty much the text book definition of NPD. Not ESTP.

 

[Azure Flame]

This is pretty much the text book definition of NPD. Not ESTP.

Sure, its one of the symptoms, doesn't mean its NPD though. Its a test to see if your ego is going to interfere with the relationship. People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested. Being assertive of my own rights as a human is not the same as narcissism.

 

[Elfboy]

Sure, its one of the symptoms, doesn't mean its NPD though. Its a test to see if your ego is going to interfere with the relationship. People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested. Being assertive of my own rights as a human is not the same as narcissism.

when you say things like "you play by my rules when you enter my life", it suggests a desire to, at least to some degree, control your partner

when you say things like "people who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make a relationship work", it suggests you place more of the expectation on them rather than wanting to meet them halfway and work with them

not saying these things for certain (you may have just worded it provocatively. I know I have on several occasions), but both suggest narcissistic tendencies (which are likely the result of your 7 wing)

 

[Evo]

You know how people feel when they don't want to learn, but you don't feel it yourself - this is called empathy.

I don't think I know how they feel when they don't want to learn...I have never not wanted to learn<---this is a biased Te/Fi opinion that I have... I think that voids out this example.

empathy: the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

I don't identify with others easily. period.

The things others care about, compared to what I care about are mostly not the same.

And I definately don't indentify with others' feelings, thoughts, or attitudes.

I have to make a habit of saying to myself:

"Why can't I stand this person?"

From there I have to rationalize to myself...that we all are the same, and we are all just doing our best.

The thought of me even trying to be in someone else's shoes (even just to identify with them or thier experience) is a very difficult thing. I feel like I'll get overwhelmed and never get out of that state. So I avoid it.(E7 ness)

When someone's dog dies, I am not the person to go to.

And I'm the biggest dog lover I know.

The only thing that comes to mind when bad stuff happens to people is "I wouldn't want this to happen to me"

I have to take that and use it to get a gist of what others are feeling...but even then it's still hard if I've never experienced it.

I'm like half robot/half self-absorbed.

It's sad but true.

At least I know now, and am working on it. :/

Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.

However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.

But the fact is that almost no one learns to empathise unless they are compelled to learn for their job.

Just as almost no one learns to read and write unless they are compelled by Law to go to school.

This is because reading and writing and empathising are counter-intuitive and unnatural.

Regarding these two posts. Are you saying that we all have to learn. Or are you saying that some people, inherently, are just better?

Because I think it's both.

Just like the piano, some people need more practice and some naturally have it as a talant.

People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested

Yea, tried that.

Hasn't worked yet.

Good luck with that though

(I don't call this "submission" btw. I call it back pedalling. Need someone that's gonna give in once in a while and back pedal, cause it shows they care more about the relationship than being right all the time. Fe does this very nicely. ENFJ's do it the most ime, then INFJ's following close behind)

PS (Also just guessing but....I think that other people may say that you're an E6 a lot cause that sounds a little like fear of abandonment. Not saying that I think you are E6 or anything, just saying that I know that fear now when I see it, and that could be what you're projecting)

 

[Stanton Moore]

I think almost everyone can develop empathy. Mirror neurons seems to be distributed in at least 4 regions of the brain, making it likely that they have been conserved because they provide an evolutionary advantage. And, given their ubiquity in the brain, it seems unlikey that a lack of empathy is created by their absence. Anti-social tendencies, sociopathy, etc, seem therefore to be a product of environmental factors and not exclusively genetic.

 

[Mole]

I think almost everyone can develop empathy. Mirror neurons seems to be distributed in at least 4 regions of the brain, making it likely that they have been conserved because they provide an evolutionary advantage. And, given their ubiquity in the brain, it seems unlikey that a lack of empathy is created by their absence. Anti-social tendencies, sociopathy, etc, seem therefore to be a product of environmental factors and not exclusively genetic.

Mirror neurons make sympathy natural, whereas empathy is unnatural and must be learnt like reading and writing.

Narcissists are unable to face the fact that they may need to learn and practise before they master empathy.

 

[Mole]

It's sad

Yes, it is sad. But is seems to me you have trouble with sympathy rather than empathy.

And to feel more comfortable with your sympathy, you may need to meet someone who is able to sympathise with you first.

Or indeed you might like to meet a whole group who can sympathise with you, like an encounter group.