"Child of rage" documentary

[Betty Blue]

OMG! That is EXACTLY what has been going through my head. Is it great minds or simple minds that think alike?

Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ.

 

[Vasilisa]

I was reminded of some of the following comments on Zooey Deschanel's eyes (also very blue) also being denounced as creepy and scary.

 

[Vasilisa]

How about the eyes of the girl in the window. One of the most neglectfully abused children ever. Not subject to sexual abuse to my knowledge. Does the coldness observed in her eyes qualify her to be subject to the category of irredeemable?

 

[Totenkindly]

I was reminded of some of the following comments on Zooey Deschanel's eyes (also very blue) also being denounced as creepy and scary.

I just was on Yahoo News, front page -- "Do you know who this is?"

I think it's, well, you-know-who! Isn't it?

 

[Ivy]

Great job breaking the hard stories, Yahoo News.

That doesn't look like Zooey to me. Something about the nose/lip area looks kind of masculine. Did they not say who it is? Now it's going to bother me all day.

 

[Betty Blue]

How about the eyes of the girl in the window. One of the most neglectfully abused children ever. Not subject to sexual abuse to my knowledge. Does the coldness observed in her eyes qualify her to be subject to the category of irredeemable?

Wow yes, i just read through that, it's interesting the diagnosis they gave her. I have heard of developmental autism before but not really seen a case it was made... though i did have a vague understanding of which circumstances it would be made in. Gosh i really hope that family are as genuine and loving as they seem.

I wish i could remember this book i have read, actually two of them as it has a sequel. It's funny how absue has a huge impact on me yet i feel compelled to read and understand at times. I don't think i could work in social services with abused and neglected children. Though it is an area i would like to help and heal in.

 

[Totenkindly]

Great job breaking the hard stories, Yahoo News.

Yeah, it just gets better and better there. They want to have more news in their feed than is worth reading.

They also insert contributer articles in with normal AP news articles, along with gossip sites like OMG. Fun.

That doesn't look like Zooey to me. Something about the nose/lip area looks kind of masculine. Did they not say who it is? Now it's going to bother me all day.

I can't see it, it's a vid page and it's blocked when I try to load it. But maybe if you go there, you can chase the link?

I wasn't sure if it was Zooey or not. The eyes look kind of right, but the face might not be wide enough. They said also this actress lost weight for a particular movie role.

... spooooookyyyy eyeeeeeessss.....

 

[Ivy]

I can't see it, it's a vid page and it's blocked when I try to load it. But maybe if you go there, you can chase the link?

I wasn't sure if it was Zooey or not. The eyes look kind of right, but the face might not be wide enough. They said also this actress lost weight for a particular movie role.

... spooooookyyyy eyeeeeeessss.....

OMG! It's

Jared Leto

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

How about the eyes of the girl in the window. One of the most neglectfully abused children ever. Not subject to sexual abuse to my knowledge. Does the coldness observed in her eyes qualify her to be subject to the category of irredeemable?

I'll be interested to read more about her life. Her eyes don't look cold to me, but instead very haunting, vacant, and disconnected. This thread did inspire me to read up on feral children to see if there were issues of violence. The only violence mentioned refers to their ability to hunt small prey, so it is not about cruelty, but just mimicking the survival methods of whatever animals they lived with.

I think this is an extremely interesting point and could suggest that cruelty is a learned, reactive trait.
So far my impression from reading and observation is that the cruelty results more from mimicry combined with a sense of rage and powerlessness from being violated.

Edit: also her expression is not false. It has a deep authenticity. I also would not think that anyone is irredeemable, including the woman of this thread topics. The question is not whether it is or was possible, but rather, if she in fact has been redeemed. Whatever is the truth about such scenarios is deeply important to discover and know, and so one must remain continually open to the possibility such a person has overcome their sadism,mbut also be open to the possibility that they have not.

 

[Coriolis]

I include myself in "the intelligent" and don't think myself dangerous at all, but there's a difference between IQ and EQ. If this person has high IQ and pretty much non-existent EQ (let's say the opposite of Down's Syndrome, who often appear to have high EQ and non-existent or low IQ scores) then she's to my mind phenomenally dangerous. People with high IQs and fair-to-middlin' EQs can be troubling enough without one who completely misunderstands it.

Having a strong moral sense, or value system, is different from either IQ or EQ, and it would seem that this is what makes a psychopath (or anyone else so lacking) dangerous. My own EQ is fairly low, and though I don't relate well to people's emotional states, I have a strong sense of right and wrong, which keeps me from harming others as a rule. I don't have to feel their pain to know that certain actions will hurt them or cause them problems, while others will help. My values guide me to do the second whenever possible.

Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "... a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1] They have an "impoverished moral sense or conscience" and may have a "history of crime, legal problems, impulsive and aggressive behaviour." ASPD falls under the dramatic/erratic cluster of personality disorders.[2]

But what motivates a psychopath to do what they do, and by that I mean everything they do? Anything from choosing a job, to deciding where to live, or whether to accept an invitation, or how to interact with the neighbors. We say they are motivated by self interest with no regard for the rights and sensibilities of others, but what are their self-interests? Are these as diverse as they are for the rest of us - everything from creature comforts, to wealth, to knowledge, to fun/excitement - or as I asked before, are psychopaths driven by the desire to hurt others for its own sake? If they are not, then the damage they do is essentially collateral, and not the object of their efforts. That neither excuses it nor diminishes its effects, but does suggest a different understanding of their motivations.

 

[Ivy]

Whatever is the truth about such scenarios is deeply important to discover and know, and so one must remain continually open to the possibility such a person has overcome their sadism,mbut also be open to the possibility that they have not.

This pretty much says it all IMO- this is the balance I've been trying to describe between keeping yourself safe but not demonizing the other without evidence (and I don't believe "her eyes look like a sociopath's eyes" is valid evidence for that- certainly it's enough to justify keeping your distance for personal safety reasons, as there is NO obligation to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to personal safety; I very highly recommend a book called Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker about this topic).

 

[Totenkindly]

This pretty much says it all IMO- this is the balance I've been trying to describe between keeping yourself safe but not demonizing the other without evidence (and I don't believe "her eyes look like a sociopath's eyes" is valid evidence for that- certainly it's enough to justify keeping your distance for personal safety reasons, as there is NO obligation to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to personal safety; I very highly recommend a book called Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker about this topic).

I'll vouch for Gavin here.
The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift are both great books.

 

[Betty Blue]

But what motivates a psychopath to do what they do, and by that I mean everything they do? Anything from choosing a job, to deciding where to live, or whether to accept an invitation, or how to interact with the neighbors. We say they are motivated by self interest with no regard for the rights and sensibilities of others, but what are their self-interests? Are these as diverse as they are for the rest of us - everything from creature comforts, to wealth, to knowledge, to fun/excitement - or as I asked before, are psychopaths driven by the desire to hurt others for its own sake? If they are not, then the damage they do is essentially collateral, and not the object of their efforts. That neither excuses it nor diminishes its effects, but does suggest a different understanding of their motivations.

This also interests me a great deal. I am certain phycho/sociopaths can enjoy others enjoying themselves if they themselves are part of it. E.g at a dance club they may possibly enjoy dancing with another person and do not necessarily begrudge the other party enjoying themselves. And yes i imagine their areas of interest will be diverse but there will definately be a focus on instant gratification.

But clearly there is a line that you step over once you affect their own preferences/choices/lifestyle. I do think a psychopath can be in a mutually beneficial short term (sexual/romantic) relationship... it may have include certain ingredients to be viable and i doubt very much a long term healthy relationship is possible.... certainly not without some insight, therapy and a great deal of understanding and work.

I see that they often work in the short -term moving on as and when necessary in order not to be cuaght out. Thrill seeking, a typical con artist type. I think their greatest concern is often not to be caught out.

There's a huge amount of damage/hurt/suffering these individuals can cause so research and knowledge is valuable in order to minimise this.

 

[Ivy]

I'll vouch for Gavin here.
The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift are both great books.

Now that you mention it I think it was The Gift of Fear that talked about trusting your instincts and not trying to be "nice" and give people a fair shake when it comes to your own personal safety. I read them both around teh same time and they made a huge impact on the way I parent.

 

[Betty Blue]

Oh! I just went looking for the books and found them. They are by Torey Hayden

'One Child' and 'Tigers Child', I must forewarn some parts are very disturbing.

 

[Totenkindly]

Now that you mention it I think it was The Gift of Fear that talked about trusting your instincts and not trying to be "nice" and give people a fair shake when it comes to your own personal safety. I read them both around teh same time and they made a huge impact on the way I parent.

Yeah, I always remember the first example about the woman who was ushered into her apartment by an assailment who promised not to hurt her after he had raped her (I think), but she didn't believe him even as she didn't understand why. She grabbed a blanket and silently followed him through her apartment and out her front door to a neighbor's apartment, as he walked into the kitchen looking for a knife. Later she realized it was the fact he had been putting down the windows in her apartment; the insinuation was that he was doing so in order to stifle any noises she might have made. At the time, it's like her mind was picking up on details and responding to them, before she could consciously process them; she just knew she wasn't safe.

De Becker learned much of this at a young age. When he was a boy, his mother shot his estranged father/boyfriend one night in the kitchen, and seconds before she did, he took his sibling into the bedroom and hid them. He said later when recalling the event, it came to him that it was how his mother was stepping AWAY from her father, to distance herself, that telegraphed that tonight she planned to actually pull the trigger.

There is a lot of data that comes at us that we can get vibes from, even if we can't put words to it right then, and it's okay to act on it at the time in order to make sure we are safe. That's a little different than summarizing someone's character and putting it out there without confirmation.

 

[Coriolis]

This also interests me a great deal. I am certain phycho/sociopaths can enjoy others enjoying themselves if they themselves are part of it. E.g at a dance club they may possibly enjoy dancing with another person and do not necessarily begrudge the other party enjoying themselves. And yes i imagine their areas of interest will be diverse but there will definately be a focus on instant gratification.

I had thought the reverse - that psychopaths schemed very carefully to get what they want, manipulating the world around them with great patience and foresight. But perhaps that is just a stereotype.

 

[93JC]

Wow yes, i just read through that, it's interesting the diagnosis they gave her. I have heard of developmental autism before but not really seen a case it was made... though i did have a vague understanding of which circumstances it would be made in. Gosh i really hope that family are as genuine and loving as they seem.

There was a documentary made some years ago about Genie, the case from 1970 mentioned in passing in the aforementioned Tampa article. You may have seen it already. If not, it may interest you.

 

[Betty Blue]

I had thought the reverse - that psychopaths schemed very carefully to get what they want, manipulating the world around them with great patience and foresight. But perhaps that is just a stereotype.

Oh yes certainly, i don't dispute that at all, i was just mentioning that it is also possible for them to enjoy being with another being as long as they themselves are having their desires met. That is not to say they will not discard that other as soon as they are no longer imperitive to their personal enjoyment. Oh right the foresight. Yes also this i believe, often with the shorter term in mind too, but yes plenty of scheming, and often on the feet thinking.

 

[Vasilisa]

Honest stuff here..

I know what this girl is and all, but to be completely honest her eyes don't scare me and neither does anything about the way she acts, really. She strikes me as a badass, in a sense that I actually admire. All sociopaths do, actually. Sometimes I wish I were a sociopath, does that make me fucked up?

You may be interested in checking out this blog post I found that contemplates the common thread between extreme altruists and psychopaths.