"Child of rage" documentary

[Totenkindly]

Pics of that Tim Tennent don't look like the guy in the documentary to me. It seems like a pretty amazing coincidence but not outside the realm of possibility for the two guys to have wives and children with the same name and close to the same ages.

Yeah, I added to my above comments, but I don't think it's him either. But yeesh. It's like one of those "separated at birth" things, except of course they look nothing alike.

I just think the weird part (besides the kids' names and ages) is that both of them are ministers in the south somewhere... I think they're both Methodist?

A comment from the page I linked earlier:

Yes, she had TWO adoptive moms. 3 moms total if you include her biological mom. Her biological mom died. She was left with an abusive biological father. While still a baby, Beth and her brother were taken from the home by CPS and adoptive by Tim and Julie. Tim and Julie couldn’t deal with her, so they gave up just Beth (not the little brother). She was then adopted by Nancy Thomas (and became Beth Thomas) and Nancy, who COULD deal with her, sought therapy from Watkins. She only lived with Watkins as part of her therapy–Nancy Thomas remained her mom.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here's a pic of my boy, who has autism. He's very unusual but there's not an evil or dishonest bone in his body. When I posted this pic on Facebook I got a note in my inbox about his "scary" eyes.

So sorry to hear that people would say that to you about your own child. You are right, though, that people's instincts are only as good as their experience and limited by their prejudices. I can see the hyper focus in his expression which may be what people were responding to in a distrustful manner if they aren't familiar with it. It is a completely different look because it has so much authenticity. I'm reminded of one highly intelligent little boy who takes piano at the school where I teach who has hyperfocus. I watched him talking to one teacher when he was about 6, and he would place his face right in front of theirs, so that it was all he could see. He also had trouble knowing when he was being naughty for being silly in social situations.

I have worked with a number of individuals with autism and Aspbergers - various ages, experiences, and levels of functionality, so the expressions look completely different to me, but the point is that anyone can be wrong about their impression. Perhaps it is more responsible to respond with just an impression of the person having a different way of processing information, rather than judging character.

This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

I have worked in lines of work and lived in such a manner where I have had to judge people quickly by pattern behaviors etc. as well as doing reading/study/classes on human psychology, and I have often had an uncanny ability to spot sociopaths or people who meant to do me or someone else harm.

While there is of course a big part of me who feels very sad and sick that some person molested a little baby, there is also a part of me who is ultimately concerned about the consequences of this person walking around "blending in" to society.

I don't think it's lighting, or because she has blue eyes (a lot of people have blue eyes) its the cold, dead, flatness in them, that I have seen before ...mostly on men, interestingly enough, though. Like the redneck boy down the street who tortures people's house pets or the guy from my high school who became a serial rapist.

I've met one person who said you should probably judge a stranger (on the Internet for example) by taking multiple photographs of that person and covering their face except for the eyes.

This probably sounds horrible, but another thought I had was "that kid could have played Damian's sister in a feminist remake of the Omen."

Having experience with sociopaths does make a difference in one's impression. I feel like perhaps I shouldn't type-out in text this observation, but she is now a nurse, and so she still gets to stick needles in people. The idealized version is that now she does it to heal people. I think that the needle could have been a metaphor in her mind for the sexual abuse she experienced, and so was able to regain a sense of power by being the one in control. That aspect hasn't changed in her field. The highest functioning psychopath I personally met was in the medical field and very much enjoyed his power over others. He did an internship in an inner city clinic and laughed privately to his spouse when his treatment plans caused harm to vulnerable and homeless. That is an actual person I encountered and not conjecture. My feelings about this woman are conjecture and I would feel very badly if mistaken. I wonder how she would articulate her career choice in relationship to the manner in which she chose to harm her brother and animals during her suppressed rage as a child.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

As an added point about her contentious statement about Edgar Allen Poe; A lot of people incorrectly believe in a false account of his life that makes him out to be a horrible person.

From Wikipedia

The day Edgar Allan Poe was buried, a long obituary appeared in the New York Tribune signed "Ludwig". It was soon published throughout the country. The piece began, "Edgar Allan Poe is dead. He died in Baltimore the day before yesterday. This announcement will startle many, but few will be grieved by it."[77] "Ludwig" was soon identified as Rufus Wilmot Griswold, an editor, critic and anthologist who had borne a grudge against Poe since 1842. Griswold somehow became Poe's literary executor and attempted to destroy his enemy's reputation after his death.[78]

Rufus Griswold wrote a biographical article of Poe called "Memoir of the Author", which he included in an 1850 volume of the collected works. Griswold depicted Poe as a depraved, drunk, drug-addled madman and included Poe's letters as evidence.[78] Many of his claims were either lies or distorted half-truths. For example, it is now known that Poe was not a drug addict.[79] Griswold's book was denounced by those who knew Poe well,[80] but it became a popularly accepted one. This occurred in part because it was the only full biography available and was widely reprinted and in part because readers thrilled at the thought of reading works by an "evil" man.[81] Letters that Griswold presented as proof of this depiction of Poe were later revealed as forgeries.[82]

So for her to believe this would just be the behavior of a pretty normal person.

Likewise, while I disagree with her characterization of prostitution, it wouldn't really set her apart from a lot of fervently religious types in the southern USA, would it?

 

[Thalassa]

Having experience with sociopaths does make a difference in one's impression. I feel like perhaps I shouldn't type-out in text this observation, but she is now a nurse, and so she still gets to stick needles in people. The idealized version is that now she does it to heal people. I think that the needle could have been a metaphor in her mind for the sexual abuse she experienced, and so was able to regain a sense of power by being the one in control. That aspect hasn't changed in her field. The highest functioning psychopath I personally met was in the medical field and very much enjoyed his power over others. He did an internship in an inner city clinic and laughed privately to his spouse when his treatment plans caused harm to vulnerable and homeless. That is an actual person I encountered and not conjecture. My feelings about this woman are conjecture and I would feel very badly if mistaken. I wonder how she would articulate her career choice in relationship to the manner in which she chose to harm her brother and animals during her suppressed rage as a child.

We have these instinctive reactions to people for a reason, and I am of the opinion that people who do not have them too easily become victims of predators. I even could tell over the phone once that a man was "off" and found out later he had attempted to rape someone I knew.

I've noticed many times that people are quicker to show compassion to the most dangerous or violent people than they are to people who are just odd or eccentric or "almost normal." I'm not sure what this is about, and I wonder how much it has to do with television shows and movies making psychopaths, sociopaths (or ASPD) and narcissists seem exciting ...as well as excusing away the admitted violent and vindictive behavior of abusers...but if someone "looks weird" then woe be to them socially.

I wonder if its because the most insidious forms of dangerous illness have a ridiculously unfair ability to present as "normal"...but it should make you question anyone who replicates "normal" in a little too much detail without sufficient information, or someone whose smile is a little too perfect.

The needles theory you have makes so much sense, and what bugs me is not just her facial expression as a child, but that she appears to maintain it as adult, and also seems to be confused morally from what I've observed. Even if you come from a very religious background and see prostitution as a sin, to lump them in with murderers and say their motive is "control" (what its typically survival, unless they're legally employed) and to lump in classic gothic writers with people who murdered multiple innocents is ...it's like something a child or a young adolescent would say.

 

[Aquarelle]

Well, this makes me absolutely terrified at the prospect of adopting a non-infant (something I've been considering lately). I know not all adopted children have issues like this, but how difficult must that have been for the poor adoptive parents? Their dream comes true and then they end up with such a terrible situation. Yikes.

Interesting that on the "Advocate for Children in Therapy" website, it specifies that Beth is apparently "the only independent adult survivor of Attachment Therapy/Parenting to speak well of Attachment Therapy."

 

[Ivy]

So sorry to hear that people would say that to you about your own child. You are right, though, that people's instincts are only as good as their experience and limited by their prejudices. I can see the hyper focus in his expression which may be what people were responding to in a distrustful manner if they aren't familiar with it. It is a completely different look because it has so much authenticity. I'm reminded of one highly intelligent little boy who takes piano at the school where I teach who has hyperfocus. I watched him talking to one teacher when he was about 6, and he would place his face right in front of theirs, so that it was all he could see. He also had trouble knowing when he was being naughty for being silly in social situations.

I have worked with a number of individuals with autism and Aspbergers - various ages, experiences, and levels of functionality, so the expressions look completely different to me, but the point is that anyone can be wrong about their impression. Perhaps it is more responsible to respond with just an impression of the person having a different way of processing information, rather than judging character.

Having experience with sociopaths does make a difference in one's impression. I feel like perhaps I shouldn't type-out in text this observation, but she is now a nurse, and so she still gets to stick needles in people. The idealized version is that now she does it to heal people. I think that the needle could have been a metaphor in her mind for the sexual abuse she experienced, and so was able to regain a sense of power by being the one in control. That aspect hasn't changed in her field. The highest functioning psychopath I personally met was in the medical field and very much enjoyed his power over others. He did an internship in an inner city clinic and laughed privately to his spouse when his treatment plans caused harm to vulnerable and homeless. That is an actual person I encountered and not conjecture. My feelings about this woman are conjecture and I would feel very badly if mistaken. I wonder how she would articulate her career choice in relationship to the manner in which she chose to harm her brother and animals during her suppressed rage as a child.

Wow. Your needles observation is chilling, especially considering how many of her attempts to harm her brother or animals in the documentary involved sticking them with pins. I think this is valid speculation considering what we DO know about her- you're not making these observations solely on the way her eyes look. The purpose of my caution about that was not to say we can't speculate or that we shouldn't use instinct/gut reaction to protect ourselves from people, but that we should always recognize that we could be wrong (but still protect ourselves anyway). I'm willing to believe until I have evidence to the contrary that Beth's recovery was full and that she truly regrets her actions and is now capable of empathy- but I'm not likely to ask her to babysit, given what I know about her past.

 

[Mole]

The eyes have it

"I looked the man [Putin] in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country".

- U.S. President George W. Bush describing his meeting with Vladimir Putin, President of Russia, at a joint press conference, June 16, 2001.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

"I looked the man [Putin] in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country".

- U.S. President George W. Bush describing his meeting with Vladimir Putin, President of Russia, at a joint press conference, June 16, 2001.

That is doubly hilarious. I'll bet it was just like looking in the mirror.

Perhaps that is fodder for another thread, but those two men show a great many classic signs of narcissism and/or sociopathy.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

This seems related.

Mary Bell.

Mary Flora Bell (born 26 May 1957) is a British woman who was convicted in December 1968 of the manslaughter of two boys, Martin Brown (aged four) and Brian Howe (aged three). Bell was 10 years old when she killed Brown and 11 when she killed Howe, making her one of Britain's most notorious child killers.[1]

In 1980, Bell, aged 23, was released from Askham Grange open prison, having served 12 years, and was granted anonymity (including a new name) allowing her to start a new life. Four years later she had a daughter, born on 25 May 1984; Bell's daughter did not know of her mother's past until Bell's location was discovered by reporters and she and her mother had to leave their house with bed sheets over their heads.

Bell's daughter's anonymity was originally protected only until she reached the age of 18. However, on 21 May 2003, Bell won a High Court battle to have her own anonymity and that of her daughter extended for life. Any court order permanently protecting the identity of a convict is consequently sometimes known as a "Mary Bell order."

In 2009, it was reported that Bell had become a grandmother.[7]

 

[greenfairy]

I don't know what this says about me, but I saw nothing really unusual about her eyes, and her expression didn't unsettle me. I'm not in any way saying you are mistaken, only that I don't appear to be able to identify it in people if it's not in person (at least not consciously).

I watched that documentary awhile ago with my ISFP guy friend, along with a segment on feral children in Russia. Whenever I learn about these people I get inside their heads to figure out what it's like to be them. I enjoy it, seeing from different perspectives. While people with no conscience or empathy would certainly give me bad vibes in person (and I think I have a good sense for whether people are harmful or not, just based on how their energy feels), learning about these things doesn't usually scare me or make me emotionally react. When I get emotional, it's anger on the part of their victims.

It concerns me however, that I didn't really pick up on the rehearsed nature of the ending of the documentary. I thought she was telling the truth. She may have been, I don't know; but maybe it would be good to pay attention to these things. In any case, she just strikes me as a typical conservative whose ethics and values I would disagree with and find questionable. There are a lot of people with attachment issues, who lack empathy to a significant degree. I'm not going to say there is a correlation with politics, but I think there is a certain brand of conservative which values control, conformity, violence, punishment, etc. which would be a very good match for someone who is a sociopath trying to blend into society. If you lack your own set of ethics, you can always borrow them from a social group. This reminds me of Kohlberg's 6 stages of development; it was found that most people tested as stages 2 and 3 out of 6 (rather appalling). And it doesn't surprise me. Think about how many children are victims of domestic abuse and neglect; the statistics only show what has been reported.

The attachment therapy that this girl went through is very aggressive and puts the therapist in complete control of the child. I would not be extremely surprised if this has become a semi-acceptable way for her to continue the cycle of abuse that she was subjected to as a child, by physically dominating and emotionally breaking children who are brought to her mom's center for "treatment."

This would not surprise me at all. I think a lot of people in society are perpetuating cycles of abuse. But even if she isn't in an ideal place psychologically, I think it's the only thing that works for some people. Complete adherence to an external authority is the only way some people integrate into a social system, or really understand what being social means. If it's the only way she understands ethics, then I guess it's necessary and better than the alternative. Control is a lower stage than genuine caring for others; so that's why an environment of love didn't work initially. She couldn't understand it.

I would consider her a success if she really can blend in with society and mimic proper ethical treatment for people, even if it is not genuine. (After all, plenty of people do.) I think she does have some sense of empathy; her focus on babies shows that to me for one thing- she is able to make the connection between the time she herself suffered pain and other people in that vulnerable stage. Even if it is only a fascination, I think she has at least an unconscious desire to help and protect even if she doesn't really know how. That's what my sense of empathy says anyway.

And is it weird that I wasn't creeped out by the needle thing? I just thought, "well that makes sense."

Anyway, don't mind me and my unusual reactions to things. I'm not a sociopath or anything, just a little surprised.

 

[Coriolis]

I began to read that confession of a sociopath and was so disgusted by her inner process that I couldn't even continue reading it without feeling angry and feeling like she has no right to walk around free among other human beings.

We don't incarcerate people for their thoughts - at least not yet. I don't see much in this that is different from, as others have pointed out, people that just act like jerks sometimes. Understanding the dynamics of situations as this person does, while being able to remain detached from them is a very valuable and effective combination. As with other tools/methods, it can be used for good or for ill. So, I am more interested in what she does with her life than how she does it. Toying with acquaintances' relationships - not good. Helping friends and students - good. None of us acts with complete benevolence, or effectiveness.

Isn't also comforting to know she's a Mormon Sunday school teacher?

Narcissistic and Sociopathic types are par excellence in playing the game to appear more normal than normal.

Yes, the Mormon/sunday school part was interesting - a good cover. Her observations about the nature of that church system and how it can be used were right on the mark, though.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, this makes me absolutely terrified at the prospect of adopting a non-infant (something I've been considering lately). I know not all adopted children have issues like this, but how difficult must that have been for the poor adoptive parents? Their dream comes true and then they end up with such a terrible situation. Yikes.

yes. I mean, it's not a lot different in some ways than having your own bio kid -- you never know what you'll get, and then you deal with it or not. (For example, my younger son was born with cystic fibrosis -- totally caught us off-guard.) There are things you just rise to the occasion for because you are a parent and you are connected to your child. However, different people deal better or worse with different ailments; for example, if my son had needed full-time care or had been intellectually disabled in some way, that would have been much harder for me than a physical ailment. Still... it's your child.

maybe an adopted child has different dynamics, when there are unexpected problems.

Interesting that on the "Advocate for Children in Therapy" website, it specifies that Beth is apparently "the only independent adult survivor of Attachment Therapy/Parenting to speak well of Attachment Therapy."

That seems a pretty bold claim, considering there could be a silent crowd out there who just doesn't talk about it to maintain privacy, and people tend to be far more public about things they do not like vs things they do. (Just work in customer service for a day.) I don't know.

I did watch all the video. What Beth undertook was very very strenuous -- they basically took away all her freedom, until she learned she could trust the people in charge of her life and built a connection with them, and then they slowly gave her control back as she proved trustworthy. That sounds horribly drastic; then again, she was killing animals, beating up her little brother constantly to the point of hospital visits, and had taken knives and was talking about stabbing her family to death while she slept, which is also pretty drastic. Maybe if things are bad enough, you essentially have to start over at the point where kids normally develop attachment and go from there. But it does mean the adults involved have to be beyond reproach and have an immense responsibility, with the role they are forcing themselves to play in the child's life.

Also, I think Attachment Therapy/Parenting covers a lot of ground -- it's an umbrella term and could involve a range of techniques -- so I don't know if criticism of one type is indicative of another. Or am I misunderstanding AT?

 

[Ivy]

I get confused because I was into something called Attachment Parenting when my kids were little, but it had nothing to do with this kind of Attachment Therapy (and they also refer to Attachment Parenting, but they're not talking about what I know as Attachment Parenting). What I did was basically just "breastfeed as long as mother and child both want to, don't fear the family bed if it works for you, and hold the baby a lot until it wants to get down and explore, then let it."

 

[greenfairy]

I also think she seems like an ESFJ. That was my impression of her adult picture.

I get confused because I was into something called Attachment Parenting when my kids were little, but it had nothing to do with this kind of Attachment Therapy (and they also refer to Attachment Parenting, but they're not talking about what I know as Attachment Parenting). What I did was basically just "breastfeed as long as mother and child both want to, don't fear the family bed if it works for you, and hold the baby a lot until it wants to get down and explore, then let it."

Interesting you mention this. The fact that this is a specific method of parenting and not the norm (like it usually is in tribal cultures) I think is indicative of the level of attachment issues people have in the general population. There's a common theme, misusing in some cases a common label.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hooray, now from her mere picture we've figured out she's (1) an ESFJ and (2) the spawn of Satan's seed.

Anyone want to volunteer the third side of this sordid triangle?

 

[chickpea]

i think they made a tv movie based on this story, i never saw it except for this very disturbing but hilarious clip

 

[Betty Blue]

Hooray, now from her mere picture we've figured out she's (1) an ESFJ and (2) the spawn of Satan's seed.

Anyone want to volunteer the third side of this sordid triangle?

She's Black?

 

[Vasilisa]

One other example of attachment therapy working is Daniel Solomon, whose story you can listen to here.

Did anyone else listen to this? Its a different case, but it gives some more insight into the adoptive parents' perspective. It doesn't have sources listed, just the family telling their own story. But it shows the depths of the parents struggle and Daniel's turnaround. Heidi Solomon describes the logic of the treatment which speaks more to the lack of opportunity to grow empathy and a conscience in abused and neglected children rather than the inability to do so in normal circumstances that psychopaths exhibit. In this case you cannot see Daniel so there won't be any eye evaluations, but I still encourage you to consider this story as you consider the plight of these families. I know adopted families with international adoptees who were in late childhood when they were adopted. They've told me about the anguish families feel when they are dealing with attachment disorder children. They call them onions, because the more you work with them, the more you cry.

 

[zago]

Honest stuff here..

I know what this girl is and all, but to be completely honest her eyes don't scare me and neither does anything about the way she acts, really. She strikes me as a badass, in a sense that I actually admire. All sociopaths do, actually. Sometimes I wish I were a sociopath, does that make me fucked up?

They lack something that normal people have, something that I see as pathetic. It's hard to put a finger on and define it exactly. Sociopaths are believers. If they believe in pure hatred and malice, at least they believe in something. Normal people are afraid to believe in anything so wholeheartedly. Maybe that's it. And you can see it in their confidence. When I look at that girl in the video, I think she is amazing.. thrilling.. powerful.. even godlike. And I love her eyes, and her unabashedness. I find her desire for existential revenge and desecration totally relatable. She is a product of the nightmare world she was born into, and there is a kind of beauty in nightmares. I honestly think she is a lovely child and hope god has mercy on her. I see an angel in her, even more readily than I do anyone else.

Then again, maybe I just think normal people are stupid and sociopaths aren't.

Now... don't get me wrong, when I hear about someone being a sociopath or suspect it IRL, I immediately stay as far away from that person as possible, because I know what's good for me. It would be incredibly ignorant to voluntarily try to "help" a sociopath. It is indeed tragic that others will become victims of this sort of thing. That girl's brother? I can't imagine how horrible it must be for him. I dunno why this sort of shit happens. Then again, I've never been exposed to it, it is totally alien to me. Things I don't know...

I guess in the end, to me this girl is kind of like a baby lion or something. I love animals. They are innocent, even when they are predators. It's just their nature. Animals don't have a bunch of big ideas about things, either. They are just themselves.

And here's the kicker: I think her mom's eyes are crazier than hers. Her mom's eyes scare me. I find them hateful and fearful.

 

[Lark]

I get confused because I was into something called Attachment Parenting when my kids were little, but it had nothing to do with this kind of Attachment Therapy (and they also refer to Attachment Parenting, but they're not talking about what I know as Attachment Parenting). What I did was basically just "breastfeed as long as mother and child both want to, don't fear the family bed if it works for you, and hold the baby a lot until it wants to get down and explore, then let it."

Yeah, I get confused by the definitions too, there is a version of attachment therapy which I object to which suggests that restriction of movement, frequent restraints, even a bizarre re-enactment of birth called "rebirthing" which has nothing to do with the attachment theory which I know but its often confused and conflated with the same theories.

What you described in a single sentence there is what I know of as attachment parenting, its providing a secure base from which a child can experience security and then proceed to explore the world in confidence from.

Its really hard to develop that when early life experience, deprivation and abuse has soft or hard wired other responses into the brain, so the secure base is threatening and a source of pain, the internal conflict between seeking attachment and being terrified and having an aversion to the source of attachment will burn out or permanently change centres in the brain.

That said its possible to provide rebalancing experiences, its just INCREDIBLY HARD WORK and you need to be pretty resilent yourself, able to experience and bounce back from trauma, even in those who are permanently effected its possible to provide coping strategies and potential or capacity for adjustment. Human history has a lot of examples of people adjusting which people dont recognise, usually physical traits, being a minority ethnicity, differences in appearence which could be stigmatised etc., physical disabilities and I see psychological traits as in the same range.
[MENTION=10315]Aquarelle[/MENTION]

There are risks of this sort of thing associated with all social services adoption services children, although that family should have been informed, those children and their life experiences would mandate professional and specialist adoptive parents or foster carers but resources of that kind are scarce and sometimes decisions are made to go with whatever is available. I dont think its particularly fair to anyone involved, child or parents but the assessment of the parents appeared to have been conducted correctly, they said all the right things about not seeking an adoption to meet unmet adult needs etc. It happens.

I think there are other adoption agencies and services though, I am not that clued upon them, but I know there were Roman Catholic ones which operated connecting families with the desire to adopt with families who had unplanned pregnancies and did not wish to parent the children and who would consider abortion unconscienable. I remember seeing videos about these agencies at school, they were actually American videos, featuring American actors and agencies, we were shown them during pastoral care classes to impress upon, particularly female pupils (sexist I know) that there were options (pro-life ones) if they fell pregnant.