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Race, Gender and Identity

Nicodemus

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Yes. Like the one called Crematorium 3. It used to be just that, a crematorium and a morgue.
I never said people didn't die. Over 60 000 people died in Auschwitz-Birkenau during the time the camp was active.
That is indeed horrible, but the thought was never to keep them there for that long, and logistics were made impossible due to allied bombings...
Lack of food and medicine led to sickness and death of many.
Then we have people trying to escape, riots and other things, all of which was handles less than delicately. Even inhumane. That I definitely admit.
It could have been done better, that's for sure. But focus wasn't on the prison camps, they were fighting a war on all fronts, and it simply wasn't all that important.
But naturally, jews need attention. "Wants to be the bride at every party", as someone put it once.
How many Jews, would you say, died in the territories controlled by the Germans during the war?
 

Beorn

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I guess in terms of the forum at what point does unsupported attacks on groups become hate speech and how long do we tolerate it before some kind of action taken.

I agree that we should just ignore it if it can't be reasoned with but in terms of "acceptance" what I meant was that I don't feel the need to treat those views with any measure of respect (person begrudgingly yes). That is to say, "no, one is entitled to that opinion" and that it is a "wrong thought" rather than a differing opinion.

As an example I accept Hinduism even though I think it is inaccurate. I can't disprove it. I don't accept the belief that women have less teeth than men. I can disprove that.

How can someone not be entitled to an opinion? In what context are you referring to that entitlement? On this forum? In a country? in humanity?

To some extent nobody is entitled to anything on this forum as it belongs to haight and we only converse here because of his goodwill.
 

Ism

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I offered you evidence of myself and other mixed race people who are not diseased or sterile. There are numerous mixed race people capable of reproducing.

I have also offered you examples of numerous inventions by non-whites, and several black men who are extremely accomplished and non-violent. These men are intelligent and no bend on the destruction of white society.


I've mentioned how their is more genetic variation within groups than between them.

Also, I questioned you on how you would define subspecies of humans which you didn't answer.

To be fair, Pseudo, I don't think anyone can change Valiant's mind, no matter how grossly mangled his logic is.
 

Totenkindly

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Things would probably be more heated if we were minimizing the number of Christian deaths in various times and places around the world.

Thank goodness we all have permission to speak freely.
 

Valiant

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How many Jews, would you say, died in the territories controlled by the Germans during the war?

Hundreds of thousands, to be fair.
Especially in the Soviet territories, though, they were killed by russian civilians who took their revenge on them for decades of oppression.
It is no secret that 85% of the NKVD cheka were jewish. The political commissars.
Russians really hate them, and still do.
Also, a lot of them were resistance fighters/partisans, and there were of course instances where entire villages were decimated.
I do not deny that.

What I do deny is that there were any industrialized killings of jews or others in the concentration camps.
There is no proof to support that, how hard you ever try to believe that.
It is all based on "eye-witness accounts" by radical zionists.
Buy I admit to hundreds of thousands of jews killed.
It was war, and they were undeniably the enemy. Lots of ugliness and crossing the line in the heat of battle was, however, done.
Wives and children should never be subject to summary execution. That happened.

Then again, the crimes of the russian jews especially will over-shadow anything the germans ever did hundreds of times over.
It was total war, in a way never seen before or since.
 

Pseudo

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How can someone not be entitled to an opinion? In what context are you referring to that entitlement? On this forum? In a country? in humanity?

To some extent nobody is entitled to anything on this forum as it belongs to haight and we only converse here because of his goodwill.

I don't think we are entitled to hold opinions we know to be false. You can't "unknow" the truth essentially. People aren't entitled to believe things in face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. They should really be censured for it by themselves, humanity and the universe.

Mistaken belief is one thing, unknowns are one things but willful propogation of what you know to be untrue?....... Makes my INTP belly knot up.
 

Nicodemus

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Hundreds of thousands, to be fair.
Especially in the Soviet territories, though, they were killed by russian civilians who took their revenge on them for decades of oppression.
It is no secret that 85% of the NKVD cheka were jewish. The political commissars.
Russians really hate them, and still do.
Also, a lot of them were resistance fighters/partisans, and there were of course instances where entire villages were decimated.
I do not deny that.

What I do deny is that there were any industrialized killings of jews or others in the concentration camps.
There is no proof to support that, how hard you ever try to believe that.
It is all based on "eye-witness accounts" by radical zionists.
Buy I admit to hundreds of thousands of jews killed.
It was war, and they were undeniably the enemy. Lots of ugliness and crossing the line in the heat of battle was, however, done.
Wives and children should never be subject to summary execution. That happened.

Then again, the crimes of the russian jews especially will over-shadow anything the germans ever did hundreds of times over.
It was total war, in a way never seen before or since.
So you deny neither that hundreds of thousands of Jews (not all of whom were soldiers) died nor that they were killed on purpose, and you think that legitimate because the Jewish 'race' was the enemy?
 

Beorn

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I don't think we are entitled to hold opinions we know to be false. You can't "unknow" the truth essentially. People aren't entitled to believe things in face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. They should really be censured for it by themselves, humanity and the universe.

Mistaken belief is one thing, unknowns are one things but willful propogation of what you know to be untrue?....... Makes my INTP belly knot up.

Wow, that's pretty radical.
 

Valiant

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So you deny neither that hundreds of thousands of Jews (not all of whom were soldiers) died nor that they were killed on purpose, and you think that legitimate because the Jewish 'race' was the enemy?

No, it wasn't legitimate.
But that entire war was a huge clusterf*ck.
Innocents did get caught in the crossfire.
They always are. I definitely don't deny that.

What the communists and allied countries did was by far worse, though.
Germany only tried to stay on top of an impossible situation where zionists pitted the entire world against them.
The truth always gets out sooner or later.
It's been 68 years now. It is time for the war propaganda against Germany to cease, and for the truth to get out.

I do not wish to sweep under the rug the innocents who actually died.
That never was my goal. There were a lot of deaths which were unnecessary.
But it was never on an industrial scale, anywhere.
And you can't ban a whole ideology for what civilians did, as well as soldiers acting against specific orders not to kill the jews.
They did have such orders. No orders to kill them all has ever been turned up.
The only thing that mentions genocide is an alleged speech by Heinrich Himmler and a forged diary by I think Göring, both of which have been proven fake at a later date.
 

Beorn

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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

I'm quite serious.

You overestimate the power and ability of rationalization. You don't appreciate that rationalization is always based on unprovable presumptions.
 

Nicodemus

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No, it wasn't legitimate.
But that entire war was a huge clusterf*ck.
Innocents did get caught in the crossfire.
They always are. I definitely don't deny that.
Hundreds of thousands killed on purpose. That's a Holocaust!

The truth always gets out sooner or later.
It's been 68 years now. It is time for the war propaganda against Germany to cease, and for the truth to get out.
The truth is out. You already admit it in the principle, now you only need to adjust the details.

They did have such orders. No orders to kill them all has ever been turned up.
The only thing that mentions genocide is an alleged speech by Heinrich Himmler and a forged diary by I think Göring, both of which have been proven fake at a later date.
There is a diary entry from Goebbels, an entry that even David Irving confirms to be original. There are loads of other documents, of course. No, they have not been proven fake.
 

Valiant

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Hundreds of thousands killed on purpose. That's a Holocaust!


The truth is out. You already admit it in the principle, now you only need to adjust the details.


There is a diary entry from Goebbels, an entry that even David Irving confirms to be original. There are loads of other documents, of course. No, they have not been proven fake.

It was war. People die. Especially enemies, and sadly those close to those enemies.
So you are saying that the americans are committing a holocaust against the arabs and others right now?
Over a million died because of the sanctions against Iraq. Even BEFORE the war ever started.
As you might understand, many more have died since.

War is ugly business, and people die.
What makes the jews so damn special?
They as a group are not even particularly innocent.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I'm quite serious.

You overestimate the power and ability of rationalization. You don't appreciate that rationalization is always based on unprovable presumptions.

Oh my, a subjectivist.

I remember this psychotic serial killer in San Francisco. He killed a homeless man who he believed was a reborn Biblical prophet (I forget which one), claiming that he was asked to kill him and also informed that he must continue killing other people to prevent the great earthquake from hitting California now that the Vietnam war had ended and was no longer supplying a steady stream of sacrifices. This man sincerely believed these things. He had absolute faith. He even tried to act as his own lawyer in court and prove it all. My question for you, Beorn, is how we should have regarded that man's beliefs? How much benefit of the doubt should we have given him?
 

Orangey

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The problem is that it seems to me that people who focus on tolerating ideas are less likely to be tolerant of people. Or, maybe my complaint with Orangey and MP is also somewhat linked to what Christopher Hitchens once said, "I learned that very often the most intolerant and narrow-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness."

What are you talking about? Who ever said anything about tolerance? It's not like I came into this thread extolling the virtues of tolerance and then turned around and said, "hey, YLJ/Valiant, you have no right to exist. Go die!" If I had done that, then you might have a case for hypocrisy. But as it is, I never said ANYTHING whatsoever about tolerance, and I never made any statements to the effect that YLJ is a worthless piece of shit who needs to go die in a fire. All I said, and all ANYONE is saying, is that his opinions are worthless (on the most basic factual and ethical levels) and maybe he should seek therapy because they seem, in this case, to seriously be the result of some variety of mental/emotional disturbance.
 

Beorn

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Oh my, a subjectivist.

I remember this psychotic serial killer in San Francisco. He killed a homeless man who he believed was a reborn Biblical prophet (I forget which one), claiming that he was asked to kill him and also informed that he must continue killing other people to prevent the great earthquake from hitting California now that the Vietnam war had ended and was no longer supplying a steady stream of sacrifices. This man sincerely believed these things. He had absolute faith. He even tried to act as his own lawyer in court and prove it all. My question for you, Beorn, is how we should have regarded that man's beliefs? How much benefit of the doubt should we have given him?

I wouldn't call myself a subjectivist, I think objective truth can be grasped, but people don't realize that it's faith along with rationality that enables them to grasp objective truth.

I don't see what your example has to do with anything, but I'll answer anyway. It sounds as if his delusion only affected why he was doing something and not what he was doing. He's still guilty of murder because he intended to kill someone. If he had thought the gun was a magic squirt gun that shot rainbows that made people fall in love then he might not have had the requisite intent to commit murder.
 

Nicodemus

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It was war. People die. Especially enemies, and sadly those close to those enemies.
So you are saying that the americans are committing a holocaust against the arabs and others right now?
If Fredrik Reinfeldt declared all black-haired people the enemy, had most of them detained and killed, I would say that is pretty much a Holocaust.

By the way, how did the people who attacked you even know that you are a Swede? If I recall correctly, you look more like a Turk or an Italian. Did you wear a telling t-shirt?
 

Valiant

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If Fredrik Reinfeldt declared all black-haired people the enemy, had most of them detained and killed, I would say that is pretty much a Holocaust.

By the way, how did the people who attacked you even know that you are a Swede? If I recall correctly, you look more like a Turk or an Italian. Did you wear a telling t-shirt?

That is not the same thing, and there were never ordered to be killed. Prove it.
Show me the order where they are ordered to be killed.

I could pass for northern italian, yes. If you don't look at facial features.
Facial-wise i'm of trönder type. Norwegian.
I used to color my hair black, if that's what you mean. It's medium brown/reddish with light streaks.
Don't have any unusual facial features, though.
When I don't color my hair or go tanning in the winter, I look pretty damn normal. :b

Besides. Italians are part of the white race. Turks are mixed.
Not the same thing.

Anyway, fire away. I know you're just trying to probe me for weakness, being the person you are.
I'm going to bed now. Have fun slandering me and trying to destroy my reputation in whatever petty way you decide to go about it.
 
G

Ginkgo

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I'm quite serious.

You overestimate the power and ability of rationalization. You don't appreciate that rationalization is always based on unprovable presumptions.

This...

And the objection to pondering Valiants mental condition on the basis that doing so would be "othering" or "dehumanizing" him.

Very postmodern.

I don't think Pseudo is showing an over-appreciation for rationalization. Our inability to hold opinions we do not believe is simply the nature of the beast, and it follows that we are not entitled to that ability either, even in a sense of moral absolutism. If one is to play the devil's advocate, a measure of distance must come between one's actual stance and the lie they are pushing. The whole activity comprises the totality of one's relationship the the truth, which is dynamic, but remains the same in principle.
 

Pseudo

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I'm quite serious.

You overestimate the power and ability of rationalization. You don't appreciate that rationalization is always based on unprovable presumptions.


Of course the unknowns and undefineds are a huge category. which is why i am accepting of a variety of viewpoints. I would go as far as to say most things fit into acceptable. However, there are some views that are unacceptable. fo instance, Is the idea that women and men typically have the same number of teeth based on an unprovable presumption? I would say no.
 
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