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typology & prejudice

S

Society

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major edit: sorry for the confusion, i assumed the english term character meant the same thing it means when your thinking of a character in a story or a play or a roleplaying game - a.k.a. content of the person (as the equivalent would in my own language), and did not know until now that it can actually be used to refer to moral integrity specifically. as a result, this thread has become a huge English fail on my part.

the actual topic i was trying to [melodramatically] address was typological prejudice in the workplace and in society at large.
[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] - thank you for clarifying.

_____________________________________________________________
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

so, does the alternative of typological prejudice means mister King got what he was asking for?

on the other hand:
can you really say that your typology (MBTI, enneagram, cognitive skill evaluations, or any other), supposedly meant to identify the ways you think, your internal motivational structures, etc', and other deep ingrained traits that define your internal processes, says nothing about your character?

the old-time fallacy of racism is that it was self-maintaining blindness to nature vs. nurture, it segregated people into different cultural and socioeconomic environments based on ethnicity, and thus was not able to distinguish between the consequences of living in said environment and the true nature, potential and behavioral tendencies and motivations of the human beings within them. but can the same be said about typology?

screw whether it's morally wrong by our enlightened standards to think like that or even consider the possibility that it is, the reason racism was morally wrong in the first place is because it creates artificial limits on one's capacity to explore their potential and contribute to society by assuming the person can't extent beyond that anyway - the morality of it was wrong because the assumption was wrong. can you really say something is inherently bad by appearing like something that is, when what stands behind it is entirely different?

can you say that traits that are applicable to your personality are then somehow not applicable to at least part of who you are as a person?

edit:
and btw, this is not some dystopian future scenario - typology is used as a means for employment and human resource related decisions right now by a multitude of privately owned organizations and companies throughout the western world.
 
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Jaguar

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"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged for being INFJ, but by the content of their character."

Fixed.
 

Ivy

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can you really say that your typology (MBTI, enneagram, cognitive skill evaluations, or any other), supposedly meant to identify the ways you think, your internal motivational structures, etc', and other deep ingrained traits that define your internal processes, says nothing about your character?

Yeah, totally. There are people of high and low character of every type, IMO. Type is morally neutral- character is another measurement (not that I'm sure it can actually be measured). You can be an ENTP with integrity or one without. Repeat x15.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that linking types to higher or lower character is a gross misuse of typology. Though we like to pretend it is here to generate discussion, no typological structure is fine-grained enough to encompass moral character in addition to personality.
 
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Yeah, totally. There are people of high and low character of every type, IMO. Type is morally neutral- character is another measurement (not that I'm sure it can actually be measured). You can be an ENTP with integrity or one without. Repeat x15.

who said anything about the particular of moral character? i am asking about character in general - and if typology would have no affect on your character, how would you be able to test or type yourself as anything in the first place?

and btw, this is not some dystopian future scenario - typology is used as a means for employment and human resource related decisions right now by a multitude of privately owned organizations and companies throughout the western world.
 

Ivy

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who said anything about the particular of moral character?

MLK Jr. did. Do you think he was talking about whether somebody was introverted or extroverted?
 
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MLK Jr. did. Do you think he was talking about whether somebody was introverted or extroverted?

i think he was talking about all the means people where judged by their color of their skin, which extended way beyond morality - while certainly prejudice in law enforcement agencies was part of it - it also includes education, employment, roles in the military, land ownership, and a thousand other areas.

also: read above edit.
 

UniqueMixture

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No, because the processes that cause type formation can be interrupted and altered to give different outcomes imo. I think human society naturally evolves to reflect that fact as various kinds of behavior become more necessary within a social grouping. So, my answer is that you do not have a "character" but that your genes can manifest in a lot of different ways that are controlled more by environmental stressors that cause different process manifestation as the field of epigenetics is beginning to show us quite clearly. We live in a gestalt with our environment however, it is a shame that discrimination exists against those whose environment acted upon them in a way that was preventable and led to more deleterious outcomes, but the goal imo is to try to give people in this situation the information and resources needed to help them undergo new processes instead of abandoning them as we currently do. Unfortunately, the view of the person as innate still persists due to lack of education.
 
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Glycerine

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For the most part, there is only so much one can really know about someone based off categorization systems and personality types. You can't honestly know someone in depth without knowing genetic predispositions, background, stressors, the amount of resources/resiliency/coping mechanisms, medical conditions, current situation, etc. Even then, there is no way to predict others' behavior...just potential outcomes. Humans will always be the unpredictable variable when it comes to understanding things.
 

Tigerlily

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This isn't by chance some dystopian future scenario, is it? If so, I'm outta here!
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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artificial limits on one's capacity to explore their potential and contribute to society by assuming the person can't extent beyond that anyway


People judge and lie, they are impatient and petty, they are violent and spiteful, they follow the crowd to abduct and defile it, they are vulnerable and manipulative, they are peaceful and kind, they want to be a part of the whole or they want to be alone in their kingdom, they are weak and distracted, they seethe and hiss and sneer like reptiles and ejaculate feculence with their arrogance and sanctimony - but not me, never....never me. I am none of these things and usually, within specific spans of space-time, neither are those whom are lucky enough to be in the room with me.
 

Mole

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Just as genetics shows there are no races, and astronomy invalidates astrology, and quantum mechanics shows classics mechanics is an illusion, psychometrics invalidates mbti.

But more to the point, racism is a Nineteenth Century genetic theory that was shown to be wrong in the second half of the Twentieth Century.
 
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Just as genetics shows their are no races, and astronomy invalidates astrology, and quantum mechanics shows classics mechanics is an illusion, psychometrics invalidates mbti.

But more to the point, racism is a Nineteenth Century genetic theory that was shown to be wrong in the second half of the Twentieth Century.
This is close to my take on the matter.

It's not prudent (or right) to use assessments in such a way with such limited data. I'm also confident that, when we gather sufficient data, we'll find that the assessments outright don't work in that way.
 

Ivy

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I'm joining the Victor-bologna collective.
 

Tiltyred

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Exactly. This is why I like you so much. You understand me perfectly.
 

Mole

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Disillusion

This is close to my take on the matter.

It's not prudent (or right) to use assessments in such a way with such limited data. I'm also confident that, when we gather sufficient data, we'll find that the assessments outright don't work in that way.

But it's life's illusions I recall - the illusion of race, the illusion of star signs, the illusion of classical mechanics and the illusion of type. Why, in the rag and bone yard of my heart I still believe the Sun goes round the Earth. Every day without fail the Sun and the Earth give me the perfect illusion that the Sun moves through the sky and I remain rooted to the Earth. So it is not illusions that make me dizzy, it is disillusion.
 

Coriolis

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on the other hand:
can you really say that your typology (MBTI, enneagram, cognitive skill evaluations, or any other), supposedly meant to identify the ways you think, your internal motivational structures, etc', and other deep ingrained traits that define your internal processes, says nothing about your character?

the old-time fallacy of racism is that it was self-maintaining blindness to nature vs. nurture, it segregated people into different cultural and socioeconomic environments based on ethnicity, and thus was not able to distinguish between the consequences of living in said environment and the true nature, potential and behavioral tendencies and motivations of the human beings within them. but can the same be said about typology?

screw whether it's morally wrong by our enlightened standards to think like that or even consider the possibility that it is, the reason racism was morally wrong in the first place is because it creates artificial limits on one's capacity to explore their potential and contribute to society by assuming the person can't extent beyond that anyway - the morality of it was wrong because the assumption was wrong. can you really say something is inherently bad by appearing like something that is, when what stands behind it is entirely different?

can you say that traits that are applicable to your personality are then somehow not applicable to at least part of who you are as a person?

edit:
and btw, this is not some dystopian future scenario - typology is used as a means for employment and human resource related decisions right now by a multitude of privately owned organizations and companies throughout the western world.
What do you mean by "character"? Some would include elements of personality - e.g. whether someone is gregarious, conscientious, reserved, etc. Others instead focus on virtues like honesty and fairness, that can be exhibited by anyone. If the second, then the answer to your question is a resounding "yes". If the first, then personality influences the nature of your character, but not the absolute value of it. (Meaning it will influence in what manner you are a jerk or a model employee/friend/etc.) Character and personality are both part of who someone is as a person, but neither is the whole story.

BTW, use of personality questionnaires to make hiring, retention, and promotion is illegal in most places, and widely viewed as unethical. Just like racism, sexism, and other prejudices, however, its misuse persists. They can be used legitimately like interest inventories to help individuals and career counselors understand personal preferences to inform career choices.

Just as genetics shows there are no races, and astronomy invalidates astrology, and quantum mechanics shows classics mechanics is an illusion, psychometrics invalidates mbti.
This is one analogy too far. Classical mechanics is still more than adequate for most macroscopic purposes, like sending a spacecraft to the moon. Recognizing a tool as wrong for a particular job does not make it inherently invalid.
 
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What do you mean by "character"? Some would include elements of personality - e.g. whether someone is gregarious, conscientious, reserved, etc. Others instead focus on virtues like honesty and fairness, that can be exhibited by anyone.

aren't both types aspects of your personality? whether your gregarious or honest, the value and what it means to others around you is clearly different, but the are both aspects of who you are - your character.

am i having a serious english failure in terms of what "character" means in this context? :unsure:
 

Mole

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This is one analogy too far. Classical mechanics is still more than adequate for most macroscopic purposes, like sending a spacecraft to the moon. Recognizing a tool as wrong for a particular job does not make it inherently invalid.

Sure classical mechanics works, in the same way that seeing the Sun go round the Earth works, but in both cases the assumptions are false.

So quantum mechanics invalidates the assumptions of classical mechanics, just as astonomy invalidates the assumptions of the Earth centric universe.
 

Coriolis

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Sure classical mechanics works, in the same way that seeing the Sun go round the Earth works, but in both cases the assumptions are false.

So quantum mechanics invalidates the assumptions of classical mechanics, just as astonomy invalidates the assumptions of the Earth centric universe.
No. Quantum mechanics expands upon the assumptions of classical mechanics. An Earth-centric universe does not in fact work to explain physical reality.
 

Coriolis

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aren't both types aspects of your personality? whether your gregarious or honest, the value and what it means to others around you is clearly different, but the are both aspects of who you are - your character.

am i having a serious english failure in terms of what "character" means in this context? :unsure:
A dictionary will give two main definitions of character. One is basically the nature of a thing. In this sense everything about a person falls under character: personality, morals, tastes, talents, even appearance. The narrower definition focuses on the moral qualities of the person: things like honesty, integrity, fairness, etc. Your OP seemed to mean the second, as I suspect ML King did in his famous speech. I see this as distinct from personality, especially in the MBTI sense, since any type can be honest or dishonest, compassionate or callous, etc. We will just demonstrate these moral qualities (or lack thereof) in different ways.
 
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