Justice or feeling of Deprivation when it comes to rights

[Isis]

As ENFP, enneagram 7- I very much do not tolerate being controlled or controlling others. To a point where I will put my independence above all else. I've heard some people describe this same value as not wanting to be deprived. For me, it has nothing to do with feeling deprived- but everything to do with the principal of no one or nothing has the right over me. (I believe in God, and only He has the right over me.)

I will willingly give respect to deserving people (parents, elders, people who are worthy by being respectful themselves- even the right boss!) so I do not mind putting them "above" me. But if someone were to ever manage to control me (by force or what not) I would not slowly die of deprivation ...... It would be the sense of injustice that would kill me or make me fight to the death.

thoughts?

 

[garbage]

I despise being controlled, and I'm not too keen on controlling others. But I'll establish at least a little bit of control over others in some situations--to preserve my own freedom, to lead the charge when needed, etc.

At bare minimum, I want to have a say in everything that involves me; and ultimately I want to be the arbiter of my own fate.

I don't think this falls under justice or deprivation--but if I were to reframe justice and deprivation, I could say that it is unjust for one to not be in control of their own destiny; and to lose that control is to be deprived.

 

[Isis]

I guess you can say you would be deprived of freedom- I guess I think of the word deprived as "feeling deprived" or almost feeling sorry for yourself. I guess for me- that is where I'm seeing the difference between injustice (being more affiliated with the principal of it all) and deprivation (feeling like you are missing something and it's not fair.)

 

[skylights]

You sure you're not an 8w7?

I only say that because "not wanting to be controlled" is pretty much the exact description for enneagram 8.

Eights do not want to be controlled or to allow others to have power over them (their Basic Fear), whether the power is psychological, sexual, social, or financial. Much of their behavior is involved with making sure that they retain and increase whatever power they have for as long as possible. An Eight may be a general or a gardener, a small businessman or a mogul, the mother of a family or the superior of a religious community. No matter: being “in charge” and leaving their imprint on their sphere is uniquely characteristic of them.

Eights are the true “rugged individualists” of the Enneagram. More than any other type, they stand alone. They want to be independent, and resist being indebted to anyone. They often refuse to “give in” to social convention, and they can defy fear, shame, and concern about the consequences of their actions. Although they are usually aware of what people think of them, they do not let the opinions of others sway them. They go about their business with a steely determination that can be awe inspiring, even intimidating to others.

Just my first thought upon reading this. Obviously you know yourself much better than I do.

Myself, I don't really think much in terms of control. I tend to analyze systems to find where the authorities I need to "pass" with are, and to figure out how to clear them, and I try to identify as many loopholes as I can so I can escape when I feel it's necessary. I always have a plan and a contingency plan, and contingency plans within that. I am always looking towards the future to ensure that I can maximize my own degree of freedom - I like to be able to choose when, and hate feeling trapped in situations. I also do not readily give respect beyond very basic human respect unless it is earned and am quick to fight what I perceive as abuse of the system or of others for personal gain.

 

[Elfboy]

As ENFP, enneagram 7- I very much do not tolerate being controlled or controlling others. To a point where I will put my independence above all else. I've heard some people describe this same value as not wanting to be deprived. For me, it has nothing to do with feeling deprived- but everything to do with the principal of no one or nothing has the right over me. (I believe in God, and only He has the right over me.)

I will willingly give respect to deserving people (parents, elders, people who are worthy by being respectful themselves- even the right boss!) so I do not mind putting them "above" me. But if someone were to ever manage to control me (by force or what not) I would not slowly die of deprivation ...... It would be the sense of injustice that would kill me or make me fight to the death.
thoughts?

I how exactly how you feel (I'm also an ENFP 7). you demand respect, you have strong boundaries and you have no problem enforcing them, even when doing so requires a bit more ruthlessness than most people are comfortable with.

I think most ENFP 7s, 8s and cp6s would relate a lot to this, especially when taking into account the Fi/Te combo (you clearly have strong Te reading through this post).
Fi by itself: withdrawn, tranquil, daydreamy, sensitive, reflective
Te by itself: cold, robotic, systematic, efficiency driven
Fi+Te at the same time: fiery, aggressively idealistic, often frustrated, heroic, driven, expression of one's feelings can have a poetic ethereal quality to it (think Joan of Arc). Te is like a train and Fi is the fuel that sends it forward at full force

also, for the record, you sound like a 7-1-3 tritype, probably 7w>1w9>3w4 with a very strong gut fix
- 1w9 because you seem to have a clearly premeditated set of standards, hold yourself to your beliefs and desire to conduct yourself rationally. it seems like your first response when you are angry is to want to talk to the person in a reasonable manner and use more force only after they have proven unwilling to listen/cooperate. after which point, you have no problem using as much force as necessary to win
- 3w4 fix because you have a clear individualist streak, but are also driven and don't let your sensitivity get in the way of accomplishing what you want. accomplishment seems very important to you, but your own brand of accomplishment rather than a more socially accepted form that the 3w2 would strive after (3s have a lot of stereotypes about them too. 3w4s and 3w4 fixers generally don't relate a lot to most of the 3 descriptions online)

I could see you as either 7w8 or 7w6 at this point. most of the descriptions of 7w6 suck and don't get to the core differences between them. overall, your behavior seems more 8, but there's a certain..."reasonableness" and willingness to cooperate and you seem to be a more deliberate, thought out person which suggests a stronger connection to the head center. as I understand it so far, the differences are:

7w6
- more intellectual
- more cautious (not necessarily scared, but tend to be more aware of the consequences "uh, maybe I shouldn't do that...")
- tend to spend much of their time in a fantastical, Peter Pan-esque fantasy world or exciting vision of the future
- more sensitive than the 7w8 (not necessarily very sensitive, in fact, most 7w6s would not describe themselves that way at all) just more sensitive than a 7w8 who tends to plow through things and people without really realizing it)
- have a childlike charm to them which can either show outwardly or be more inwardly guarded
- more prone to escapism, often, surprisingly, via introspection (think Christopher Robin)
- more prone to seek external feedback from experts "am I doing this right?" "did I miss anything?"
- more prone to over think things, sometimes not trusting their own judgments as much as a 7w8 would
- main weakness: unrealistic, idealistic, grandiose delusions about reality, procrastination, escapism and difficulty forming solid work habits
- path to growth: getting realistic about their expectations, accepting reality and taking steps to be effective within reality to get what they want

7w8
- more action oriented, 7w8s have a tendency to generally be going after something (like 3s)
- often thought of as the "bad boy" of the enneagram
- more realistic and grounded in reality
- similarly, more focused on tangibles (money, sex, material goods etc)
- often have controversial, dark or offensive humor that they use to ruffle people's feathers
- can be workaholic and ruthless if they are pursuing a goal they desire strongly
- more thrill seeking and into rushes of intensity
- more prone to excess
- main weakness: being overtaken by their impulses and desires, thus putting their wellbeing in jeopardy
- path to growth: controlling their impulses and learning to detach from the present to gain what they want

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]
7s are often just as independence seeking as 8s, especially Sp dom 7s. 7s have big energy and require a lot of space and even more options to do what they want. trying to trap a 7 is like trying to trap wild animal that will fly into a rage and tooth and claw you until it escapes

 

[Isis]

I how exactly how you feel (I'm also an ENFP 7). you demand respect, you have strong boundaries and you have no problem enforcing them, even when doing so requires a bit more ruthlessness than most people are comfortable with.

I think most ENFP 7s, 8s and cp6s would relate a lot to this, especially when taking into account the Fi/Te combo (you clearly have strong Te reading through this post).
Fi by itself: withdrawn, tranquil, daydreamy, sensitive, reflective
Te by itself: cold, robotic, systematic, efficiency driven
Fi+Te at the same time: fiery, aggressively idealistic, often frustrated, heroic, driven, expression of one's feelings can have a poetic ethereal quality to it (think Joan of Arc). Te is like a train and Fi is the fuel that sends it forward at full force

also, for the record, you sound like a 7-1-3 tritype, probably 7w>1w9>3w4 with a very strong gut fix
- 1w9 because you seem to have a clearly premeditated set of standards, hold yourself to your beliefs and desire to conduct yourself rationally. it seems like your first response when you are angry is to want to talk to the person in a reasonable manner and use more force only after they have proven unwilling to listen/cooperate. after which point, you have no problem using as much force as necessary to win
- 3w4 fix because you have a clear individualist streak, but are also driven and don't let your sensitivity get in the way of accomplishing what you want. accomplishment seems very important to you, but your own brand of accomplishment rather than a more socially accepted form that the 3w2 would strive after (3s have a lot of stereotypes about them too. 3w4s and 3w4 fixers generally don't relate a lot to most of the 3 descriptions online)

I could see you as either 7w8 or 7w6 at this point. most of the descriptions of 7w6 suck and don't get to the core differences between them. overall, your behavior seems more 8, but there's a certain..."reasonableness" and willingness to cooperate and you seem to be a more deliberate, thought out person which suggests a stronger connection to the head center. as I understand it so far, the differences are:

7w6
- more intellectual
- more cautious (not necessarily scared, but tend to be more aware of the consequences "uh, maybe I shouldn't do that...")
- tend to spend much of their time in a fantastical, Peter Pan-esque fantasy world or exciting vision of the future
- more sensitive than the 7w8 (not necessarily very sensitive, in fact, most 7w6s would not describe themselves that way at all) just more sensitive than a 7w8 who tends to plow through things and people without really realizing it)
- have a childlike charm to them which can either show outwardly or be more inwardly guarded
- more prone to escapism, often, surprisingly, via introspection (think Christopher Robin)
- more prone to seek external feedback from experts "am I doing this right?" "did I miss anything?"
- more prone to over think things, sometimes not trusting their own judgments as much as a 7w8 would
- main weakness: unrealistic, idealistic, grandiose delusions about reality, procrastination, escapism and difficulty forming solid work habits
- path to growth: getting realistic about their expectations, accepting reality and taking steps to be effective within reality to get what they want

7w8
- more action oriented, 7w8s have a tendency to generally be going after something (like 3s)
- often thought of as the "bad boy" of the enneagram
- more realistic and grounded in reality
- similarly, more focused on tangibles (money, sex, material goods etc)
- often have controversial, dark or offensive humor that they use to ruffle people's feathers
- can be workaholic and ruthless if they are pursuing a goal they desire strongly
- more thrill seeking and into rushes of intensity
- more prone to excess
- main weakness: being overtaken by their impulses and desires, thus putting their wellbeing in jeopardy
- path to growth: controlling their impulses and learning to detach from the present to gain what they want

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]
7s are often just as independence seeking as 8s, especially Sp dom 7s. 7s have big energy and require a lot of space and even more options to do what they want. trying to trap a 7 is like trying to trap wild animal that will fly into a rage and tooth and claw you until it escapes

Hi- wow, loved your post!! Thank you so much!
I also admire people like you who really get the enneagram because I have always struggled with it. I walked around thinking I was 2 and then realized I was totally wrong.

Actually- this post made me dig up old notes and finally found them! This is what I tested and sounds like me:
7w6, 4w5, 9w1

I'm definitely a heavy Te but extremely people oriented, overly enthusiastic about everything.
I feel like I want to re-read your post over and over - was almost like a psychic reading- love it!

The Fi/ Te description makes perfect sense!!! I am insanely idealist and fighting for causes and standing firm. uggh I feel like I must annoy the crap out of people. Either that or they wish they could be as impassioned about something- I don't know.

I'm an Sx/SO.
And I would be like a wild animal if someone tried to cage me. If I were truly trapped- it would manifest to a full blown panic attack.

 

[Isis]

You sure you're not an 8w7?

I only say that because "not wanting to be controlled" is pretty much the exact description for enneagram 8.



Just my first thought upon reading this. Obviously you know yourself much better than I do.

Myself, I don't really think much in terms of control. I tend to analyze systems to find where the authorities I need to "pass" with are, and to figure out how to clear them, and I try to identify as many loopholes as I can so I can escape when I feel it's necessary. I always have a plan and a contingency plan, and contingency plans within that. I am always looking towards the future to ensure that I can maximize my own degree of freedom - I like to be able to choose when, and hate feeling trapped in situations. I also do not readily give respect beyond very basic human respect unless it is earned and am quick to fight what I perceive as abuse of the system or of others for personal gain.

Thanks for this!!
No- I do not identify with 8 really at all. I think the ENFP and tritype of 4w5 makes me very individualistic and seeing others as individuals and making authenticity one of my very top values in terms of importance to me. So me being my authentic self means I cannot function with someone trying to control me. I really think an 8's view of being controlled and someone like me is a totally different dynamic- a great discussion though! I love this and would love 7s, 8s, 4s to weigh in!

You see the world in terms of systems and have plans and contingency plans. (I have no plans. And what are contingencies? haha) Are you an INTJ? It fascinates me really how differently we can each look at the world.

 

[sprinkles]

Yeah I do what I want and trying to coerce me is a good way to watch me blow up and is just asking for a headache for the other party.

That doesn't mean I can't do what somebody else wants. If I had the world and somebody wanted it, I'd probably give it, they only have to ask.

I refuse to be coerced. I only become more stubborn the more somebody persists, even if it is something I would have done anyway if they had left it up to me. Not having autonomy is like death to me so naturally I'm averse to it.

 

[Little_Sticks]

thoughts?

Reminds me of the motivation for my psychopathic side. And the insanity that goes along with it.

 

[ceecee]

Thanks for this!!
No- I do not identify with 8 really at all. I think the ENFP and tritype of 4w5 makes me very individualistic and seeing others as individuals and making authenticity one of my very top values in terms of importance to me. So me being my authentic self means I cannot function with someone trying to control me. I really think an 8's view of being controlled and someone like me is a totally different dynamic- a great discussion though! I love this and would love 7s, 8s, 4s to weigh in!

You see the world in terms of systems and have plans and contingency plans. (I have no plans. And what are contingencies? haha) Are you an INTJ? It fascinates me really how differently we can each look at the world.

I'm an 8 (not sure on wings) and when I read the description some time back I was like...wow. That's totally me. I can't even fathom life without contingency plans and back up plans and back ups for those plans. I just answered another post about control but I certainly have that 8 feeling about it. I won't be controlled but I will give control to people worthy of it. I don't have a lot of desire to control others but I will if the need arises.

 

[Isis]

I'm an 8 (not sure on wings) and when I read the description some time back I was like...wow. That's totally me. I can't even fathom life without contingency plans and back up plans and back ups for those plans. I just answered another post about control but I certainly have that 8 feeling about it. I won't be controlled but I will give control to people worthy of it. I don't have a lot of desire to control others but I will if the need arises.

I can see that in 8s! I like to hang around 8s because I know they have their $hit together more than me!
So you will relinquish control to someone who will be responsible with it. I will relinquish control to someone I respect morally. There goes our Fi and Te again...

 

[Elfboy]

Hi- wow, loved your post!! Thank you so much!
I also admire people like you who really get the enneagram because I have always struggled with it. I walked around thinking I was 2 and then realized I was totally wrong.
Actually- this post made me dig up old notes and finally found them! This is what I tested and sounds like me:
7w6, 4w5, 9w1
I'm definitely a heavy Te but extremely people oriented, overly enthusiastic about everything.
I feel like I want to re-read your post over and over - was almost like a psychic reading- love it!
The Fi/ Te description makes perfect sense!!! I am insanely idealist and fighting for causes and standing firm. uggh I feel like I must annoy the crap out of people. Either that or they wish they could be as impassioned about something- I don't know.
I'm an Sx/SO.
And I would be like a wild animal if someone tried to cage me. If I were truly trapped- it would manifest to a full blown panic attack.

- 7w6 works (in which case, you would clearly be 7w6sw8w7 like me as opposed to a 7w6sw6w5 who is more the loveable bundle-of-nerves goofball)
- I could see 4w5, but I see 3w4 more. you seem more driven and resilient than a 4w5 fixer. 4w5 fixers are much more withdrawn with intense emotional volatility and tend to wallow in their feelings of "ugly duckling syndrome"
- definitely not seeing 9w1. 9s are peace loving and avoid conflict at all cost. you sound more like you're naturally assertive and have no problem dealing out "righteous" punishment when you deem it necessary.
- 749 is the gentle spirit tritype, and you don't strike me as gentle

 

[Isis]

- 7w6 works (in which case, you would clearly be 7w6sw8w7 like me as opposed to a 7w6sw6w5 who is more the loveable bundle-of-nerves goofball)
- I could see 4w5, but I see 3w4 more. you seem more driven and resilient than a 4w5 fixer. 4w5 fixers are much more withdrawn with intense emotional volatility and tend to wallow in their feelings of "ugly duckling syndrome"
- definitely not seeing 9w1. 9s are peace loving and avoid conflict at all cost. you sound more like you're naturally assertive and have no problem dealing out "righteous" punishment when you deem it necessary.
- 749 is the gentle spirit tritype, and you don't strike me as gentle

Hah!
Can you help me figure it out once and for all? I'm liking where you're coming from, sir!!
When I was younger- I totally cared what people thought- but now in my 40s- I DO NOT! So I do believe my eneagram has evolved.
It's hard to say exactly what I would be. I am gentle / motherly / compassionate. But I am fiercely against injustice at all costs and I don't care who knows it. No- not afraid to voice my opinions and I do voice them. I'm also careful how I voice them- when- how often- to who etc. So I'm not just vomiting out my beliefs. I try to be strategic and use logic (and emotion) and okay- sometimes a little guilt trip to get my points across.

I'm charitable and not materialistic. I'm spiritual.
So now of course- I'm totally confused. At least we both agree on the 7 hahaha
thanks again!!

 

[Elfboy]

Hah!
Can you help me figure it out once and for all? I'm liking where you're coming from, sir!!
When I was younger- I totally cared what people thought- but now in my 40s- I DO NOT! So I do believe my eneagram has evolved.
It's hard to say exactly what I would be. I am gentle / motherly / compassionate. But I am fiercely against injustice at all costs and I don't care who knows it. No- not afraid to voice my opinions and I do voice them. I'm also careful how I voice them- when- how often- to who etc. So I'm not just vomiting out my beliefs. I try to be strategic and use logic (and emotion) and okay- sometimes a little guilt trip to get my points across.
I'm charitable and not materialistic. I'm spiritual.
So now of course- I'm totally confused. At least we both agree on the 7 hahaha
thanks again!!

you are sounding more and more like a 1 fixed 7w6, in particular 7w6sw8w7. you're probably a bit confused at this point
Disclaimer: subwing is a rather controversial theory among enneagram experts, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. that said, I tend to support it due to observing clear differences in people of the same type based on the strength of their wing and noticing people who seem to have influence from both wings.
- sw stands for sub wing.
- a type can either have a strong wing or more balanced wings, so within each of the 18 types (9 types, two wings for each type) there are two more subtypes
- to find the subwing, go two to the right or two to the left of the main type
- in the case of 7w6
1) 7w6sw6w5 is a 7w6 with a strong 6 wing. these are your typical entertainers, lovable comedian types and are more noticeably nervous and energetic. they tend to be more conflict avoidant and prone to over think things.

examples: Conan O'Brien, Jim Carey, Robin Williams, Andy Samberg, Steve Irkle, Michael J. Fox, Mike Myers, Alan Carr, Jack Black

7w6sw8w7 is a 7w6 who has more balanced wings, ie, 6 is the dominant wing, but some qualities of type 8 are also present. the 7w6 is more expansive, assertive and outwardly adventurous than the 7w6sw6w5, though they are still prone to more frequent nervousness than a 7w8 and tend to be somewhat more analytical and less impulsive. frequently, the 7w6sw8w7 has a mischievous, fox-like side and often falls into the role of trickster. attempts to control this subtype can result vengeful retaliation, but this subtype overall is friendly and accepting.

examples: Antonio Banderas, Brad Pitt, Peter Pan, Captain Jack Sparrow, Todd (The Fox and the Hound), Loki, Dennis the Menace

 

[skylights]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]
7s are often just as independence seeking as 8s, especially Sp dom 7s. 7s have big energy and require a lot of space and even more options to do what they want. trying to trap a 7 is like trying to trap wild animal that will fly into a rage and tooth and claw you until it escapes

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification. Surprising to me how strong, almost with violent undertones, the need to escape is. I feel it too, from time to time.

Thanks for this!!
No- I do not identify with 8 really at all. I think the ENFP and tritype of 4w5 makes me very individualistic and seeing others as individuals and making authenticity one of my very top values in terms of importance to me. So me being my authentic self means I cannot function with someone trying to control me. I really think an 8's view of being controlled and someone like me is a totally different dynamic- a great discussion though! I love this and would love 7s, 8s, 4s to weigh in!

You see the world in terms of systems and have plans and contingency plans. (I have no plans. And what are contingencies? haha) Are you an INTJ? It fascinates me really how differently we can each look at the world.

Actually I am an ENFP too, of all things!

Also fascinating that our differences can manifest in similar language. I am sx/so also - hate the feeling of being caged, too, and will also fight tooth and nail to claw my way free.

 

[Isis]

you are sounding more and more like a 1 fixed 7w6, in particular 7w6sw8w7. you're probably a bit confused at this point
Disclaimer: subwing is a rather controversial theory among enneagram experts, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. that said, I tend to support it due to observing clear differences in people of the same type based on the strength of their wing and noticing people who seem to have influence from both wings.
- sw stands for sub wing.
- a type can either have a strong wing or more balanced wings, so within each of the 18 types (9 types, two wings for each type) there are two more subtypes
- to find the subwing, go two to the right or two to the left of the main type
- in the case of 7w6
1) 7w6sw6w5 is a 7w6 with a strong 6 wing. these are your typical entertainers, lovable comedian types and are more noticeably nervous and energetic. they tend to be more conflict avoidant and prone to over think things.

examples: Conan O'Brien, Jim Carey, Robin Williams, Andy Samberg, Steve Irkle, Michael J. Fox, Mike Myers, Alan Carr, Jack Black

7w6sw8w7 is a 7w6 who has more balanced wings, ie, 6 is the dominant wing, but some qualities of type 8 are also present. the 7w6 is more expansive, assertive and outwardly adventurous than the 7w6sw6w5, though they are still prone to more frequent nervousness than a 7w8 and tend to be somewhat more analytical and less impulsive. frequently, the 7w6sw8w7 has a mischievous, fox-like side and often falls into the role of trickster. attempts to control this subtype can result vengeful retaliation, but this subtype overall is friendly and accepting.

examples: Antonio Banderas, Brad Pitt, Peter Pan, Captain Jack Sparrow, Todd (The Fox and the Hound), Loki, Dennis the Menace

wow- I never heard of sub-wings. Only tritype. Very interesting!

 

[Isis]

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification. Surprising to me how strong, almost with violent undertones, the need to escape is. I feel it too, from time to time.



Actually I am an ENFP too, of all things!

Also fascinating that our differences can manifest in similar language. I am sx/so also - hate the feeling of being caged, too, and will also fight tooth and nail to claw my way free.

And here I thought you were an NT for a minute!
lol

 

[garbage]

I guess you can say you would be deprived of freedom- I guess I think of the word deprived as "feeling deprived" or almost feeling sorry for yourself. I guess for me- that is where I'm seeing the difference between injustice (being more affiliated with the principal of it all) and deprivation (feeling like you are missing something and it's not fair.)

Okay, if we're not mincing words as I did wink--definitely justice for me, then. I believe that it's just and right for us to be in control of ourselves and our destinies to the extent possible.

 

[Randomnity]

I guess you can say you would be deprived of freedom- I guess I think of the word deprived as "feeling deprived" or almost feeling sorry for yourself. I guess for me- that is where I'm seeing the difference between injustice (being more affiliated with the principal of it all) and deprivation (feeling like you are missing something and it's not fair.)

I'm not really understanding why you're choosing to draw this distinction. Independence is both, and neither. If it wasn't a negative experience to lose independence ("deprivation"), nobody would care about whether it's an ability everyone deserves ("injustice"). But independence is also a valuable thing intrinsically, regardless of whether you're actually harmfully affected by its loss or not, and regardless of whether you think it's a human right.

I also have never met anyone who admitted to wanting to be controlled, or not minding it, regardless of type.

 

[ptgatsby]

I also have never met anyone who admitted to wanting to be controlled, or not minding it, regardless of type.

I agree; however just because people say they do not want something (or want something) does not mean they actually behave that way. Some people certainly seem to give it up willingly and are often unhappy when given independence.

It's also a bit of a measurement or tradeoff issue. Are independence and security on the same axis? I'll gladly give up a certain amount of independence to be secure.

As you say, if you define independence as an intrinsically good thing, then it is of course good. Even so I would say that the marginal value of each "unit" of independence decreases and can be traded for other things (namely security, but this is true whether it is a political, relationship or physical aspect). I'd also contend that it is inherently negative at the extremes, much the way choice is. I'd point to social code of behavior being very wrapped up in cause-effect that limits independence; allowing unlimited independence (or freedom of action) shows a very negative outcome for all, including those with that freedom. Of course, that depends on the interchangeability of freedom and independence, etc.

(Not so much a disagreement, just ramblings.)