• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

INT : The magnificent seven.

htb

New member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
1,505
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Did you know the only reason they put flight controls on the early spacecraft is because the pilots objected? They probably could've put coma patients on the moon.
Pilots objected for good reason. Crews may be the least durable component of spacecraft, but have provided irreplaceable perspective and remediation. The mission summary of Gemini 8 should be all that is necessary for you to understand why your second statement isn't correct.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Pilots objected for good reason. Crews may be the least durable component of spacecraft, but have provided irreplaceable perspective and remediation. The mission summary of Gemini 8 should be all that is necessary for you to understand why your second statement isn't correct.
Nah he's probably right. Coma patients wouldn't mind waiting for the RAC to get to them ;)
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
They are different. One is not "better" than the other. Can you bat a .400 or juggle (or whatever you thing is inferiour to your superior intelligence) and if not, why? I mean, if it's so easy and all...

Of course one is better than the other. If you train a dog to run certain (American) football receiving patterns and to catch the football - and it does it faster and easier than a person - is the dog more intelligent than a wide receiver?

Any "intelligence" that is superior in animals is not really an "intelligence" in my book.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Of course one is better than the other. If you train a dog to run certain (American) football receiving patterns and to catch the football - and it does it faster and easier than a person - is the dog more intelligent than a wide receiver?
Well no not specifically as the circumstances have change so too has the usage of intelligence. If the dog can run faster because it moves on four limbs and not two and has ( :thinking: what's the word for legs that bend the opposite way? ) those thingies then it's not using it's brain to overcome the challenge. Try getting a dog to time all these manoeuvres in a chaotic in game situation and you may see the human coming out on top.
Any "intelligence" that is superior in animals is not really an "intelligence" in my book.
So this species is the ultimate in terms of brain power in all fields is it? That's a nice rounded off view of things. Under such assumptions what is spatial awareness? Is it a mental faculty? If so then is it not linked to intelligence? is it a type or facet of intelligence? Is there not an animal with greater spatial awareness than some of those driver's you saw out on the road this week? I'd think so.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Well no not specifically as the circumstances have change so too has the usage of intelligence. If the dog can run faster because it moves on four limbs and not two and has ( :thinking: what's the word for legs that bend the opposite way? ) those thingies then it's not using it's brain to overcome the challenge.

Hey I'm not the one calling it "intelligence". The fact that many bodily movements completely bypass conscious thinking is another strike against calling it an "intelligence".

So this species is the ultimate in terms of brain power in all fields is it? That's a nice rounded off view of things. Under such assumptions what is spatial awareness? Is it a mental faculty? If so then is it not linked to intelligence? is it a type or facet of intelligence? Is there not an animal with greater spatial awareness than some of those driver's you saw out on the road this week? I'd think so.
There is a difference between usage and ability. Just cause those drivers aren't using it doesn't mean they can't.

The brain does a great many things, some things animal brains are better at than humans. I am unwilling to label every output from the brain "intelligence".
 

Dom

New member
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
458
MBTI Type
ENFP
Sorry, I agree with MacGuffin. It seems to me that a bunch of touchy-feely psychologists got together at a World Self Esteem Promotion Convention and tried to think of enough strengths so that everyone would have some kind of high intelligence. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, there's no reason to pander to egos and call them 'intelligences'.

Me too...

Seems people have decided that there is too much import given to being intelligent but the traditional sense and so someone decided to redefine it to incorporate those who may not be very academic, no idea why we can't just leave it alone and find something else to tall them...

Describing the college football jock as highly intelligent (what was it Bodily-Kinesthetic?) sond odd when he is stood next to the physics nerd.... (said a one time physic nerd... DAMN YOU PERONSAL BIAS')

The brain does a great many things, some things animal brains are better at than humans. I am unwilling to label every output from the brain "intelligence".

Totally agree... Come on Xander you remember some of things that have comeout of mine?? ;)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
If there is no such thing as BK intelligence then it makes no sense why some people are well coordinated and such. It's just not reasonable.

Some people are clumsy... this much is true. They appear dumb and unintelligent and yet I know one guy who'd beat most here at mental arithmetic and yet can't cross a room without knocking into something (that's a slight exaggeration).

Another thing is that there is scientific research which concludes that playing certain computer games increases your visual acuity which is the capability of the brain to pick up things from the visual input from your eyes. This is a function of the brain and yet is not consciously controlled. You could call it something else but generally that's just trying to reserve the word intelligence for some pedestal of a belief system which is irrelevant.

What surprises me is that 3 intuitives say that subconscious thinking is not intelligence. With that kind of thinking then all intuitives would score much lower on intelligence tests due to those intuitive leaps coming from your subconscious.

However I'm not going to argue over whether it's felt that the word intelligence can be used in a certain manner. That's a pointless debate.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
What surprises me is that 3 intuitives say that subconscious thinking is not intelligence. With that kind of thinking then all intuitives would score much lower on intelligence tests due to those intuitive leaps coming from your subconscious.

However I'm not going to argue over whether it's felt that the word intelligence can be used in a certain manner. That's a pointless debate.
You are surprised because we don't consider every mental process equivalent.

Someone may understand a complex subject intuitively, and another may have faster reflexes when an object is thrown at their head... but I don't think both subconscious outputs are equal.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
You are surprised because we don't consider every mental process equivalent.

Someone may understand a complex subject intuitively, and another may have faster reflexes when an object is thrown at their head... but I don't think both subconscious outputs are equal.
Their equality is irrelevant without context. You may intuitively understand that the knife being thrown at you head will hurt quite a bit but I believe that it'd be the reflexes which would be of paramount importance at that point in time. This context factor sets all valuing of the various intelligences, or facets of mental capability if you'd prefer, irrelevant.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Their equality is irrelevant without context. You may intuitively understand that the knife being thrown at you head will hurt quite a bit but I believe that it'd be the reflexes which would be of paramount importance at that point in time. This context factor sets all valuing of the various intelligences, or facets of mental capability if you'd prefer, irrelevant.

Context doesn't matter. Reflexes are far more important in terms of survival. I doubt there is a person on these boards that hasn't avoided serious injury or death by using their reflexes. It's still not intelligence though.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Context doesn't matter. Reflexes are far more important in terms of survival. I doubt there is a person on these boards that hasn't avoided serious injury or death by using their reflexes. It's still not intelligence though.
So what would you use as the word which describes the gauge, in general, for all the faculties of the brain.

Reflexes is partially nerve and twitch muscle based so what do you call the term used to grade the brains function in all of this?

Surely arguing over the definition of intelligence and whether it should encompass this bit or that bit is a bit of a waste of time?
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
So what would you use as the word which describes the gauge, in general, for all the faculties of the brain.

Reflexes is partially nerve and twitch muscle based so what do you call the term used to grade the brains function in all of this?

Surely arguing over the definition of intelligence and whether it should encompass this bit or that bit is a bit of a waste of time?

That makes this thread a waste of time then.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
That makes this thread a waste of time then.
Well I was thinking more in terms of what facets are covered too generally and whether they could be linked to specific things in the MBTI. Like if logical intelligence is more prevalent in Ts.

As I understood it you had drawn the problem that intelligence was the wrong word for such things as Kinetic intelligence. As such that's more arguing with the wording of the theory in it's use of the word intelligence rather than with the concept itself. Rewording it I see as more to suit personal tastes rather than a quality of the concept itself. I apologise if I sounded dismissive.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Well I was thinking more in terms of what facets are covered too generally and whether they could be linked to specific things in the MBTI. Like if logical intelligence is more prevalent in Ts.

As I understood it you had drawn the problem that intelligence was the wrong word for such things as Kinetic intelligence. As such that's more arguing with the wording of the theory in it's use of the word intelligence rather than with the concept itself. Rewording it I see as more to suit personal tastes rather than a quality of the concept itself. I apologise if I sounded dismissive.
I don't really have a problem with calling B-K intelligence, except that doing so seems to equate it with the more traditional types like Logical-Mathematical.

Those increased abilities in those traditional types are what makes human beings unique compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. It's not that B-K is worthless, it is worth less.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I don't really have a problem with calling B-K intelligence, except that doing so seems to equate it with the more traditional types like Logical-Mathematical.

Those increased abilities in those traditional types are what makes human beings unique compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. It's not that B-K is worthless, it is worth less.
Again I disagree with this as a good start towards an objective viewpoint but I rest that we shall differ on this point.

If I was to interpret your words as saying that things such as logical intellect should be worth more because in the context of the current world there are more possible applications for such intelligence than there is for the BK intelligence and hence it may not be superior itself but a person with high logical intellect as opposed to BK intellect would be considered superior when compared to the requirements and standards of today's world as it is?
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
If I was to interpret your words as saying that things such as logical intellect should be worth more because in the context of the current world there are more possible applications for such intelligence than there is for the BK intelligence and hence it may not be superior itself but a person with high logical intellect as opposed to BK intellect would be considered superior when compared to the requirements and standards of today's world as it is?

No, it is worth more because the current world was created from logical intellect.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
No, it is worth more because the current world was created from logical intellect.
Well that's a whole new argument waiting there... but to go back to the theory.

As there is call for some kind of listing for how well the brain functions in respect to manoeuvring the vessel that it is in do we combine this facet with another to make the combination as strong as logical or do we split the logical facet into it's components to make each category of equal import and so providing objective results more so than another rosette for the most "intelligent".
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
As there is call for some kind of listing for how well the brain functions in respect to manoeuvring the vessel that it is in do we combine this facet with another to make the combination as strong as logical or do we split the logical facet into it's components to make each category of equal import and so providing objective results more so than another rosette for the most "intelligent".

Why does "equal" mean "objective"?
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Why does "equal" mean "objective"?
It's not really a direct link.. it's an intuitive link made in regard to the systems results and the impact of them. If your going to make one particular facet most important then your partially saying that the rest of the test is a bit of a waste of time and in which case you should be looking at an IQ test and not a holistic test like this.

You must know someone who is really good at education like subject but couldn't apply their knowledge for love nor money. I know an ISTJ who's very good at maths and anything related to memory and yet he has as little understanding as a child sometimes. It's like all intelligence and no wisdom. So I'd come to the conclusion (after this and other examples of excellent grades but no common sense) that there must be something aside from classical intelligence which makes someone truly useful and hence a more holistic test is needed.

Now if we rule out a facet such as BK intelligence, in all forms, then are we not prejudging the results? Similarly if we deliberately group all of classical intelligence into one element then are we not already saying something in regard to the values which we are applying to the test and hence slanting the results?

To keep balance the person writing the test as well as the person sitting the test should, in an ideal situation, wish to have equally high scores in all areas. This is reflected in the MBTI where great pains are taken to put each element of personality in it's best and worst light to promote a balanced view of all of them.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
It's not really a direct link.. it's an intuitive link made in regard to the systems results and the impact of them. If your going to make one particular facet most important then your partially saying that the rest of the test is a bit of a waste of time and in which case you should be looking at an IQ test and not a holistic test like this.

Exactly right, hence use of the term "intelligence".

Now if we rule out a facet such as BK intelligence, in all forms, then are we not prejudging the results? Similarly if we deliberately group all of classical intelligence into one element then are we not already saying something in regard to the values which we are applying to the test and hence slanting the results?
I'm not ruling anything out, just not giving them equal weight. When creating an RPG character, does one always distribute all the points in all areas equally? Hell no, because some skills are more valuable than others. And when it comes to homo sapiens, B-K brings up the rear.
 
Top