Relational Competition and "Social" Bullying

[rivercrow]

Are men afraid of the verbal humiliation? Some seem numb or immune to it, they do not get the "sensitivity" of it at all and shrug it off. I've heard many women complain about how their standard ways of "asking for things" in the relationships seem to go way over the men's heads.

I can see that a man might be afraid of being humiliated in terms of his competence and/or strength, verbally, though.

It's an effective weapon that I use very sparingly and with careful aim.

 

[Xander]

I've actually had kind of "reverse" bullying before. Now that is odd. Basically the guy got all paranoid about why the group of blokes I hung around with didn't like him. He presumed it was my fault (I think it was transferred aggression cause I hung out with him in the past and no longer had as much time for him (none after this)). Basically the guy used to attack me and get me into trouble with the headmaster on a semi regular basis. I got called a "ringleader" (which I found highly amusing) by the headmaster! It's a swine trying to convince someone that the "victim" is actually the bully himself!

Oh and that whole "never hit women" is such BS. It should read "Women should NEVER hit men. Men should NEVER hit someone who didn't strike first.". That would be a just statement. Other wise it gives women two outlets for their anger and wrath and pens men up within themselves (that method is just asking for trouble).

 

[sundowning]

In mixed-sex arguments, men are afraid of being verbally humiliated by women...

This is true.

...and women are afraid of being killed by men.

This is interesting.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

... Yesterdays' instance is fresh in everyones mind so I will start here. My attack on BW I thought would have been blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of intuition...How dare you treat a forum newcomer like shit due to your personal fucking issues that have nothing at all to do with her!?!"

fwiw, I made no connection between this thread and that one. But, I'm spacey at times and still am not sure what happened there, but it's good you explained yourself here. Sometimes people need direct confrontation. It is difficult for me to rise to the occasion in those instances unless my mothering instincts are engaged.

I responded to your post because it made me think about my own behaviors and choices in conflict. I noticed said conflict and took an indirect approach, and now am interested to analyze it. I did not address any of the players directly but started analyzing why such things happen in the abstract. Can't say it's a feminine thing, but my instinct is to divert away from the personal and emotional when there is conflict and begin examining the issue abstractly. My hope is that it will divert the minds to a neutral, analytical place. This could encourage participants to take that knowledge away and 'hopefully' apply it personally as they see fit. It is clear that this strategy does not fit all situations, but it is a non-conflict strategy that is not passive-aggressive.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Here is the state of the case:mindless conformity is the foundation to nearly all actions in a conventional group.

What we have is leaders of the group deeming the behavior of the outsider unacceptable and then implicitly set them an ultimatum: change or leave, usually by giving them negative feedback. Then, nearly everybody else, does as the leaders do, and in the end we get newcomers held to obloquy for seemingly innocuous behavior because they did not appease the whims of those few people in the group who were calling shots.

As my ENFP childhood friend once said.. 'If xxxx hates you, everybody hates you, make one mistake and you're done'...I told him that it is not true that everybody hates you because he may, they will just act like they do for the sake of putting on an appropriate image. This, in my opinion is why you should not assess yourself by external standards, as they are established by the whims of the group-leaders. Instead you should assess yourself by internal standards, that you, yourself have thought through thoroughly and clearly understand why they are appropriate.

 

[KMCE]

Tradtionally, gender roles make it so that overt aggressiveness is more tolerated in males than in females. I have a couple of personal examples in mind of females that were bullied by other females in a relational way. One thing I have noticed is that these bullied females were not weak or victim like in any way. Rather, they were honest and direct females who said what they think but didn't want to play by the rules of the game. One such person I know was an ENTJ. She was completely ostracized by some of her peers because they could not stand her direct mode of communication. As a consequence, she ended up hanging out with guys. It was really a sight to behold... the other females would superficially treat the ENTJ in a very nice way. Then, once she had her backed turned, they would say things like "Let's just ignore her next time she comes!". The worse being, that, once the ENTJ tried to confront them openly, they would deny everything and, worse, would then accuse the ENTJ of being mean and aggressive. When I asked the girls why they were doing that, one replied: "There's no use in creating needless conflict. Plus, come on... she's really a bitch, she deserves it". The ENTJ in my example had lots of charisma. The other girls might have been jealous of her and also wanted to punish her for not conforming to gender roles.

"She lacks the indefinable charm of weakness."
- Oscar Wilde

What do you think about these behaviors and do you have any anecdotes in mind?

I think these behaviors are wrong and disgusting. No one should be bullied because they deviate from the norms.

I always think social norms are a prison and no one genuinely like them. Most of us just see them as a necessity and follow them without questioning, because it is fruitless to challenge them. If you don't want to be left behind then you must conform to the standards. It's really a small price to pay for what the society has to offer.

 

[Maverick]

I like the responses of people here, you strike me as genuine.

Lookin4theBestNU, this thread is not directed at you nor inspired by CTG. It was inspired by behaviors I observed recently when a "different" female enters a group.

I would really so much hope that those behaviors would be left behind in childhood, instead of being practiced by adults. It happens when people are territorial as well, like in churches or other organizations, where there is a "self-ordained privileged" group. People who just want to bolster their own importance by ostracizing others.

It definitely seems possible that your friend was being ostracized because of her strong personality and because she was not acting in line with the other women at her company -- i.e., breaking the social code.

Completely agree. I also would have hoped that these behaviors would have been left behind in childhood.

I never got bullied myself. However, when I was younger I protected several kids who were being bullied or interfered in bullying. I felt a sense of relief of establishing justice and of doing my part to help others. There was nothing that annoyed me more that seeing the suffering of others and seeing people unfairly treated. I don't know why but those situations have always affected me very strongly. I would get very angry.

This transposed to social bullying. The problem is that whenever I tried to protect those victim of it, it was easy for the bullies to turn the tables and accuse me of being disruptive. I would confront openly and the bullies would use that to play the victims. I accumulate alot of anger at seeing people unfairly treated and feeling powerless about it. Anyone a bit different is mocked, gossiped about, rejected and demeaned... often without ever being told in front what is wrong about them. I can't stand it and it makes me sick.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

My sincerest apologies then Maverick for my over-active N. The comment sounded so much like what I said yesterday that I thought it was. Sensitive NFs !

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This transposed to social bullying. The problem is that whenever I tried to protect those victim of it, it was easy for the bullies to turn the tables and accuse me of being disruptive. I would confront openly and the bullies would use that to play the victims. I accumulate alot of anger at seeing people unfairly treated and feeling powerless about it. Anyone a bit different is mocked, gossiped about, rejected and demeaned... often without ever being told in front what is wrong about them. I can't stand it and it makes me sick.

Classic passive-aggression! That is an example of individuals who engage in both direct and indirect aggression. Some people are either/or, but many use a variety of tactics to achieve their end. Aggressors can become quite skilled at the catch-22. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Perhaps it is the willingness to use both tactics that assures this type of cornering?

I'm not certain how to win with such folks, but have learned to view them as rabid hyenas whose behavior simply is what it is. Finding ways to create boundaries that are practical, solid, and impersonal have proven the most helpful. Literal ways of avoiding them like not being in their presence is my best strategy so far. You can fight them, and should when there aren't other options, but for some reason many people like that never seem to run out of energy. It is like breathing to them, it is where they gather their energy. Finding non-draining tactics, or tactics that provide personal strength is necessary when in combat with such people.

 

[Maverick]

I always think social norms are a prison and no one genuinely like them. Most of us just see them as a necessity and follow them without questioning, because it is fruitless to challenge them. If you don't want to be left behind then you must conform to the standards. It's really a small price to pay for what the society has to offer.

This is a good point and may be tactically the best thing to do. You can't expect to change all social norms. Personally, I will try to adapt and if people would like me to take a "coordinator" role, I will then try to propose different social norms.

BTW, I see that you are an ISTJ. I hope you hang around here sometime because it would be great to have an ISTJ around.

My sincerest apologies then Maverick for my over-active N. The comment sounded so much like what I said yesterday that I thought it was. Sensitive NFs !

That's fine, you've been very honest about your stance and I don't think you were ever trying to do something demeaning. I can understand your situation and thank you for your comment.

Classic passive-aggression! That is an example of individuals who engage in both direct and indirect aggression. Some people are either/or, but many use a variety of tactics to achieve their end. Aggressors can become quite skilled at the catch-22. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Perhaps it is the willingness to use both tactics that assures this type of cornering?

I'm not certain how to win with such folks, but have learned to view them as rabid hyenas whose behavior simply is what it is. Finding ways to create boundaries that are practical, solid, and impersonal have proven the most helpful. Literal ways of avoiding them like not being in their presence is my best strategy so far. You can fight them, and should when there aren't other options, but for some reason many people like that never seem to run out of energy. It is like breathing to them, it is where they gather their energy. Finding non-draining tactics, or tactics that provide personal strength is necessary when in combat with such people.

I've been asking myself just the same questions. What is the best way to deal with these folks? I think you are right. Creating solid boundaries is very helpful. Fighting them constantly can be tiring. I think you have to pick your battles and be sure what you are going to do will be positive and enable constructive change... not just fuel pointless conflict. It can be draining to deal with such people if you are not careful.

 

[Xander]

The catch-22 situation is resolvable. Personally I use detachment (no surprise there ). The theory is that bullies thrive off reactions. I give them no such pleasure. Sure there are a few who require no response from the victim but these are most often unskilled bullies who baulk should you confront them.

Where I work at the moment they are constantly pecking at one another with "jokes" and such trying to establish themselves in a pecking order. Myself, they tend to leave alone. My tongue is faster than most and I rarely look bothered. This seems to work most days.

 

[KMCE]

When I was in school, I have never been bullied by anyone, physically or emotionally. I'm your average respectable ISTJ... I basically do the following:

1) I do a lot of works for the class. If there are papers/magazines/newspapers to be distributed I'm likely the one who does it. And I am always involved in decorating the school and the classroom for Christmas. If the school picnic is coming, I'll do the research for possible picnic sites, call the site for reservation (if needed) once a consensus is reached in class, and arrange the tour bus and etc. Well, come to think of it, these are all shit jobs. They don't make me popular, but they make me indispensable. And people don't mess with those who are useful to them.

2) I always call people by names. I can honestly remember everyone's name in my class. If I meet you, you can almost guarantee to hear "Hey, your name here! (How are you doing?)". And I generally avoid using pronoun because it creates distance. I'll use your name whenever possible. I think it's a way to show respect, and I do it even to those people that I want to have nothing to do with.

3) I don't try to make enemies, and I don't take side in conflict either, except those involving my buddies or my girl. In that case they can be sure that I'll back them up no matter what.

4) For a student I'm quite well-built. So no one wants take the risk of bullying me, physically/emotionally. There are easier preys.

Although the above are about school, all of them translate very well to work settings.

And honestly I have never gone out of my way to save those who get bullied by others. But in case I happen to enter the site where someone is being bullied, the bullying group will usually disband and fuck off.. I don't really have to do anything except standing there and staring at them. I don't report them either. I just let it slide.

But I have to say that some of those who get bullied are really asking for it (or have it coming... ). They are usually lone wolfs who for some strange reasons don't care to socialize with anyone. They don't join any extra-curricular activities either. All they do is playing chess or sitting in a corner reading some books that no one ever heard of. When you try to talk to them they just make some lame excuses and go away. But what truly makes things worse is they usually come out on top in exams... and piss everyone off. The funny thing is they never quite sense the danger around them, and they don't care about themselves enough to go to gym and work out either. So, they really have it coming.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

.

 

[meshou]

Not necessarily... For example:

Direct: "I don't respect person X and I think X is a loser"
Indrect: "Person X is kind of cute, in the way that X never manages to succeed at anything"

Oh, I fucking hate this bullshit. Hatehatehate.

 

[ptgatsby]

I suspect that relational bullying is far more intense among women because women are far more territorial than men.

I want to get the book "The Selfmade Man"... it's about a woman who pretends to be a man to get a different look at relationships... I don't know if it'll be any good, but I found it really interesting that men were far more accepting of each other than women were towards other (male or female and by a significant margin, according to the author)... But also that men were quite complimentary of their wives, and well behaved... and that women were absolute bitches in the dating arena... She said that a lot of her stereotypes about men were broken while quite a few female stereotypes that men held (that previously annoyed her) were validated repeatedly.

So I'd agree... There is something different about female-female competition than male-male competition... and it plays out a lot in social dynamics.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

.

 

[Alesia]

Here is the state of the case:mindless conformity is the foundation to nearly all actions in a conventional group.

What we have is leaders of the group deeming the behavior of the outsider unacceptable and then implicitly set them an ultimatum: change or leave, usually by giving them negative feedback. Then, nearly everybody else, does as the leaders do, and in the end we get newcomers held to obloquy for seemingly innocuous behavior because they did not appease the whims of those few people in the group who were calling shots.

As my ENFP childhood friend once said.. 'If xxxx hates you, everybody hates you, make one mistake and you're done'...I told him that it is not true that everybody hates you because he may, they will just act like they do for the sake of putting on an appropriate image. This, in my opinion is why you should not assess yourself by external standards, as they are established by the whims of the group-leaders. Instead you should assess yourself by internal standards, that you, yourself have thought through thoroughly and clearly understand why they are appropriate.

Yes. I have seen this over and over again. In work, and in group settings. Whomoever has the loudest mouth or is more assertive or the group leader, people will just follow. I have watched as small groups of strangers begin to develop group codes, surrounding assertive one. I am very aware and can "see" this process happening. If I don't agree with one of the "rules" that develope, I don't follow it, and do indeed suffer the consequences of rejection. Group mind.

And my sensitive self finds all of this agressive behavoir very, very, painful. I wish I could figure out how to put up more objectiveness and walls as Ivy, I believe suggested. I've gotten better over the years. But now, I am going back to school to get another master's professional degree to change careers. All of the students are in their mid 20's and female, young enough to be my daughters. I've never had children, so I have no idea how to behave amoung them. I can't hang out with them in bars and stuff, but I do hope to find a way to interact. Ugh!

I had to quote this too once it had been drawn to my attention. My question to the universe: how on earth do so many INFPs get into serious relationships with ISTJs? I just don't get it. Is it masochism? Martyrdom? A wild leap towards the 'real' world? Some unholy Faustian bargain - your soul in exchange for security?

This isn't intended as a dig at ISTJs. I just wonder how, with all the types to choose from, it tends to be ISTJs they wind up with. If the above attitude is at all representative of ISTJ worldview, then what could an ISTJ find attractive about an INFP?

I have a close friend who is an INFP married to an ISTJ, and they are both fucking Miserable With Children.

Lol! I'm an INFP who married an ISTJ. And my father was INFP and my mother an ISTJ. Yeah, everywhere I find an INFP, and ISTJ seems sure to follow. What gives? And they are horrible matches.

 

[Crabapple]

But I have to say that some of those who get bullied are really asking for it (or have it coming... ). They are usually lone wolfs who for some strange reasons don't care to socialize with anyone. They don't join any extra-curricular activities either. All they do is playing chess or sitting in a corner reading some books that no one ever heard of. When you try to talk to them they just make some lame excuses and go away. But what truly makes things worse is they usually come out on top in exams... and piss everyone off. The funny thing is they never quite sense the danger around them, and they don't care about themselves enough to go to gym and work out either. So, they really have it coming.

I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

Just baffled.

 

[ptgatsby]

I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

Just baffled.

What he wrote is practically ISTJ typecasting, enough that I had to wonder if he was just pretending to be an ISTJ

What I noted is that he never actually said they "deserve" it, in the sense that is how things should be, only that they are 'asking' for it because of their refusals to integrate. The reference to the gym is akin to saying "not having taken any steps to prevent it, what do you expect"?

It is a very different viewpoint and very interesting to read. However... having been through bullying, having studied it and having helped others deal with it... it's not a valid criticism in the majority of the cases. It is similar reasoning to "rape being asked for" and such... but that in itself is helpful for me to understand the other viewpoints. It also reminded me of how strongly NP I was because I was totally projecting my past onto his type. However there is enough truth in his statement that it made me check my reaction and think about it for a while.

For me, it is especially interesting because I can see the traits in the "ISTJ" makeup that make up social conformity - something that is needed when you pull back from MBTI. This might be a case of the pendulum swinging too far in one direction... but still interesting to see it exampled from the other side (so to speak )

 

[digesthisickness]

I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

Just baffled.

i took the part you quoted as 'they have some nerve to not be afraid (or be aware they should be) when they have nothing to defend themselves with if attacked.' like a bird being cocky enough to walk amongst cats. 'they get what they deserve.'

not saying i agree with him, just saying that's how i read it.