• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Depression and causation

Littlelostnf

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
645
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I was having a im conversation with an INTP friend of mine...we were discussing Depression...here's part of the convo:

him (11:29:25 PM): i forget where i was reading.. but said depression and any other "mental" condition is really caused by toxins & parasites
Auto response from me(11:29:25 PM): I'm so close to tears
and so close to simply calling you
up and simply suggesting...

me(11:29:41 PM): hmmmm i don't really believe that.
me(11:30:12 PM): do you?
him (11:30:39 PM): idk
him (11:31:53 PM): we know people in general arent happy because they have no relationship with god
me (11:32:00 PM): to much of what goes on in the brain is chemical. while they may interfere i don't think toxins and parasites are the cause..perhaps an additional reason.
him(11:32:16 PM): but this was talking about clinical conditions
me (11:32:21 PM): ah
him (11:33:02 PM): the brain still relies on a proper diet to function correctly
him (11:33:07 PM): just like any other organ
me (11:33:55 PM): i remember reading somewhere about depression that some depression is because of the way people are living their lives...and then there is the chemical depression. yes i agree with that (properdiet and such) Even with autism you can moderate symtoms by diet (not cure) but def make a bit more manageable.
him (11:34:57 PM): to me the chemical kind is the most physical
me (11:35:07 PM): ?more....
him (11:37:31 PM): we get emotionally or spiritually depressed.. even those have an effect on our physical minds and bodies.. theres no such thing as "in our head"
him (11:38:00 PM): so without any outside influencing factor, the depression has to have a physical cause
him (11:38:42 PM): the term "chemical imbalance" was invented by chemists who want to sell chemicals to "rebalance"
him (11:39:13 PM): it really isnt proven at all
me (11:39:27 PM): agree to some extent. however the connections that occur in our brains is electrical
me (11:41:05 PM): and chemical. and in some people flawed. I understand what you're saying but I think..........

Ok enough of that..what do you think is the greatest cause of depression?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I wish I had more time right now to discuss it... later for sure.

I do not think we can find a "greatest cause of depression," I think the reasons and strength of them vary among people. We can discuss the various reasons, but it's not a direct correlation. Even with medication, the meds that work for one person might have no effect on another's depression.

It is usually a multi-causal syndrome (from my experience), with impact from chemicals, diet, knowledge, behavior patterns, past experiences, outlook on life, reasoning capacity, and a host of such things.

I can follow intellectually what your friend was saying. Emotionally, though, he sounds clueless. Has he experienced debilitating depression himself or is it simply one more intellectual exercise for him? Thinking about it is one thing; experiencing it is another.
 

Littlelostnf

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
645
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I wish I had more time right now to discuss it... later for sure.

I do not think we can find a "greatest cause of depression," I think the reasons and strength of them vary among people. We can discuss the various reasons, but it's not a direct correlation. Even with medication, the meds that work for one person might have no effect on another's depression.

It is usually a multi-causal syndrome (from my experience), with impact from chemicals, diet, knowledge, behavior patterns, past experiences, outlook on life, reasoning capacity, and a host of such things.

I can follow intellectually what your friend was saying. Emotionally, though, he sounds clueless. Has he experienced debilitating depression himself or is it simply one more intellectual exercise for him? Thinking about it is one thing; experiencing it is another.

I tend to agree with you regarding the multi-causal syndrome. Yes he is emotionally clueless....sigh. Yes he has experienced depression himself and I think he wants to believe he can cure it with diet and such. Does not often give any leeway to his extremely surpressed Fe (by his own admission...cog process test...Fe virtually unused..something stupid like 0.01% or whatever. Anyway I know you don't have time now but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
 

Maverick

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
If I had to choose one that is psychological, I'd say maladjusted cognitive style. For example: overly negative view of oneself or others, high expectations about other people, catastrophized thinking, tendency to be critical and find fault in everything, believing that nothing will ever get better, etc.

However, if you look at the bigger picture and the increasing rates of depression, there is for sure a much bigger sociological problem to this that is routed deep in our existing society and culture.
 

rhinosaur

Just a statistic
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
1,464
MBTI Type
INTP
This one caught my attention:
him (11:31:53 PM): we know people in general arent happy because they have no relationship with god

Yeah, depression is a chemical imbalance, but I think that it's caused by behaviors. If you spend too much time focused on the trees, and never step back to look at the forest, you forget that a forest even exists. For example, you can eat all the right foods and take all the right drugs, but if you sit at your computer 24/7, you'll still be out of balance. :hug:

God, to me, is the interconnectedness of everything. Everything has an affect on everything else, and these interactions are a large part of god. Without stepping back to see the forest, you can't see god.

Seeing the forest is easier said than done. When you're depressed you don't want to sit outside and just enjoy the day, because everything becomes meaningless, or hostile. You lose your trust in people, and focus on how everything is bad in relation to you. Getting out of it requires family and friends who will be there for you emotionally, as well as a concerted effort on your own part to bring yourself back up. Recognize that telling yourself those depressing thoughts are harmful and hurtful, and that you're wrong -- don't believe it when your mind tells you that you suck!
 

reason

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,209
MBTI Type
ESFJ
You know, happiness is a chemical "imbalance" too.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
However, if you look at the bigger picture and the increasing rates of depression, there is for sure a much bigger sociological problem to this that is routed deep in our existing society and culture.

Maverick, do you know if other countries with a lesser level of technology have a high rate of depression?

I am curious about such things, in that does ennui and boredom and a lack of daily purpose contribute to the depression psychologically, since we expect a level of satisfaction and contentment above what is actually realistic? In cultures where one must simply worry about survival, or cultures where everyone is firmly integrated into family or relationships, is depression as large an issue?

I know those are hard things to study, due to the multitude of factors involved. Some people might be the equivalent of depressed but not even recognize it as such or simply try to ignore it, because other needs are more pressing. it seems, with all the extra time and opportunities for pleasure and fun on our hands here, we have much more time to be AWARE of the depression and thus it looms even larger.

You know, happiness is a chemical "imbalance" too.

I could definitely use more of THAT drug.

<puzzled stare>
Hmmm, you look different, did you do something with your hair?
nocturne.gif


I heard once that clinical depression results from an absence of certain chemicals in the brain. As such it may well be an unmedicated view of life.

The typical antidepressants (Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Effexor, etc.) as a rule generally focus on three general types of chemicals in the brain: Dopamine, Norepinephrine (?), and Serotonin. Dopamine is known to the mainstream world generally as the "pleasure pathway," noerpinephrine provides energy, and serotonin provides feelings of well-being. Note that these are actually "groupings," there are different TYPES of each as well within each group, and there are other chemicals; these are just the three that are commonly referenced.

There are at least two basic ways to keep these chemicals in circulation longer: produce more of them, or reduce how quickly they are taken back out of circulation.

The "uptake inhibitors" (the latter ones) fit into the receptacles designated for the targeted chemical. A serotonin uptake inhibitor thus "fills the slots" and prevents the real serotonin from being reabsorbed quickly, thus increasing the amount of active serotonin in the brain and you feel its effects more strongly.

Wellbutrin impacts D and N, effexor impacts N and S, and I'm not sure of the others right now. But that's the gist, anyway.

I heard once that clinical depression results from an absence of certain chemicals in the brain. As such it may well be an unmedicated view of life.

As for diet, I haven't looked into the science of it but I sometimes wonder if people read more into it than is actually there. Maybe depressed people just feel more positive about themselves and their lives when they feel that there is something they can do to change their condition.

Personally I think a lack of purpose in life is probably one of the bigger causes.

god, yes.

And depression feeds on itself -- you become more depressed because you feel like nothing you do can change how you're feeling, and you might even get mad and depressed at yourself for being such a worthless weak person for being depressed, and it just goes around and around...

Exercise and diet actually do help the body to feel like it has more energy, thus helping with the depression.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I suspect that depression is a combination of several factors one of which is biological predisposition. One's circumstances and experiences determine whether depression is triggered or not.

*Warning: anecdotal crap*​
For myself, I know I have a predisposition but since my two former biggest stressors (poverty and my mother) have been removed, my struggle with depression has been greatly reduced. Lack of stressors alone would not be enough, but I feel spiritually connected to God and emotionally connected to my husband and children and that fills up my purpose void pretty well. I still get some SAD going on, but nothing like I used to get.
 

Maverick

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Maverick, do you know if other countries with a lesser level of technology have a high rate of depression?

I am curious about such things, in that does ennui and boredom and a lack of daily purpose contribute to the depression psychologically, since we expect a level of satisfaction and contentment above what is actually realistic? In cultures where one must simply worry about survival, or cultures where everyone is firmly integrated into family or relationships, is depression as large an issue?

I know those are hard things to study, due to the multitude of factors involved. Some people might be the equivalent of depressed but not even recognize it as such or simply try to ignore it, because other needs are more pressing. it seems, with all the extra time and opportunities for pleasure and fun on our hands here, we have much more time to be AWARE of the depression and thus it looms even larger.

As you suggest, these things are hard to study due to the multitude of factors. Diagnosis is indeed not easy when some people fail to recognize depression. Results of studies seem inconclusive and it's difficult to establish a link between technological advancement and depression based on the data that is reported.

1. I am aware of the following article that investigates cross-cultural differences in mental health:

Prevalence, Severity, and Unmet Need for Treatment of Mental Disorders in the World Health Organization World Mental Health Surveys -- The WHO World Mental Health Survey Consortium 291 (21): 2581 -- JAMA

In the more general category of mood disorders, the differences in prevalence between countries of similar socio-economic level and facilities to diagnose suggest that differences in culture may affect depression. Germany and Italy report a lower prevalence of mood disorders (3.6% and 3.8% respectively) in the sample of countries investigated. At the opposite end of the spectrum, the USA and France report higher levels (9.6% and 8.5% respectively).

2. In terms of happiness, a report done by the BBC of a study in Britan suggests that people are less happier today than in the 50's (keeping in mind methodological difficulties to measure depression, this should be taken more lightly):

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Happiness Formula | Britain's happiness in decline

3. I am also aware of a study that looks at the relationship between happiness and income. Interestingly, this study reports Italy's hapiness level as inferior to that of the USA. The study also suggests that a relationship exists between income and happiness but that it tends to level off at a certain point. You may find the figure of the results in this link:

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/events/lectures/layard/RL030303.pdf

The question is very complicated and there is no conclusive answer. However, social and cultural factors most probably play an important role. Personally, I believe them to hold one even greater than strictly "individual" psychological/biological mechanisms.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Depression should be defined as a negative state of mind where no prospects of overcoming it are envisioned, and hence where clearly this negative state of mind is significant enough to cause the person to malfunction.

I do not believe that we can speak of a cause for such an entity, as cause implies knowing with certainty that from A followed B, rarely, if ever do we find such discoveries at all.

So at best we could only talk about what is highly correlated with depression, and for that, I will say that being in a situation where you perceive that there is nothing you will ever be able to do about your problem.

And for the sake of a farther cry, those who have been in that state may get addicted to it and cling to such a state of mind with a melancholy passion. (This, one could say is how we can get addicted to the chemicals within our brain that invoke a depressed state of mind.) In those cases, one will need to de-condition, him/herself from appreciating such a state of being, or rely on medication that will force one's inner organism to gravitate towards chemicals that are not linked with a depressed state of mind.
 

KMCE

New member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
67
I wonder if people would suffer from depression if they do exercise regularly, have great sex, and have a few Close Friends/Confidants?

If they won't, then isn't the cause of depression the lack of sex, exercise, and friends?
 

targobelle

~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
2,584
MBTI Type
enfp
Depression should be defined as a negative state of mind where no prospects of overcoming it are envisioned, and hence where clearly this negative state of mind is significant enough to cause the person to malfunction.


No that is not what depression is at all.

I have been depressed on so many different levels for a very long time. And when in my deepest darkest depression I felt trapped. There I was somewhere in my mind wishing I knew how to break free, wishing I could run through the door and be better. It's a very surreal experience. Almost like an out of body experience where you walk around in a daze.


Depression isn't something people want, it's not something that's forced it just happens. And I know for myself I wanted nothing more than to be better to be my 'normal' again but I just couldn't break free and I was in denial.... huge huge denial.



I wonder if people would suffer from depression if they do exercise regularly, have great sex, and have a few Close Friends/Confidants?

If they won't, then isn't the cause of depression the lack of sex, exercise, and friends?


you can have these and still be depressed ;)
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
No that is not what depression is at all.

I have been depressed on so many different levels for a very long time. And when in my deepest darkest depression I felt trapped. There I was somewhere in my mind wishing I knew how to break free, wishing I could run through the door and be better. It's a very surreal experience. Almost like an out of body experience where you walk around in a daze.


Depression isn't something people want, it's not something that's forced it just happens. And I know for myself I wanted nothing more than to be better to be my 'normal' again but I just couldn't break free and I was in denial.... huge huge denial.






you can have these and still be depressed ;)


I never said that depression is what people want, just that its a state of hopelessness. I dont see how anything that you said diverged from this.
 

targobelle

~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
2,584
MBTI Type
enfp
I never said that depression is what people want, just that its a state of hopelessness. I dont see how anything that you said diverged from this.


well since you didn't say it so simply you can then understand how it could be misinturpreted. Your comment 'No prospect of overcoming it' is simply not true. In my mind daily I envisioned myself awaking better, and I was even more angry when I awoke just to find myself feeling worse than I did before I went to bed, and then got angry at myself for goingt o bed in the first place......
 

KMCE

New member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
67
No that is not what depression is at all.

I have been depressed on so many different levels for a very long time. And when in my deepest darkest depression I felt trapped. There I was somewhere in my mind wishing I knew how to break free, wishing I could run through the door and be better. It's a very surreal experience. Almost like an out of body experience where you walk around in a daze.


Depression isn't something people want, it's not something that's forced it just happens. And I know for myself I wanted nothing more than to be better to be my 'normal' again but I just couldn't break free and I was in denial.... huge huge denial.


I wonder if people would suffer from depression if they do exercise regularly, have great sex, and have a few Close Friends/Confidants?

If they won't, then isn't the cause of depression the lack of sex, exercise, and friends?

you can have these and still be depressed ;)

:shock:

For me (ISTJ) it's enough to have a great body, awesome sex life, a few close friends, a stable high-paying job, a house of my own, and a fat bank account. Life really ain't that complicated. My goals are clear, and there's not much to worry about. It's kinda hard to make me depressed since I know where I am going.

Maybe you are my opposite so you think otherwise. :) Your needs are probably quite different from mine.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
:shock:

For me (ISTJ) it's enough to have a great body, awesome sex life, a few close friends, a stable high-paying job, a house of my own, and a fat bank account. Life really ain't that complicated. My goals are clear, and there's not much to worry about. It's kinda hard to make me depressed since I know where I am going.

Maybe you are my opposite so you think otherwise. :) Your needs are probably quite different from mine.

Well..I am not the exact opposite of you and having my life so simple seems unfathomable to me..

Yet again... MBTI manual reports that sensors..despite that simplicity may reduce stress for them..actually report a remarkably high level of stress...SJs more than SPs...and ISFJs the most...

The mind can make things difficult for you with all the complexities.. yet again it offers plenty of coping resources...especially for NTs..as we see that ENTP reports the lowest stress level and the INTP not far behind..
 
Top