Introversion no longer in DSM-5 Proposal

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION], my approach to most things is with an openness to learning more or considering things differently. My work now is in mental health; I take care to treat people first, regardless of what labels are attached to them.

I do agree that treatment isn't just about meds. People need to be pulled out of abusive situations and be allowed to develop their natural talents.

I also like the old school Dorothea Dix method of kindness, talk therapy, and plenty of beauty and rest and exposure to nature.

For example I think some people would recover from more minor issues with things like living a less stressful life, taking better care of their health, getting fresh air and companionship, and that sort of thing.

I also like some aspects of that behavioral method, where you try to learn that things aren't about you and you analyze your feelings to change the thought patterns that are making you depressed or anxious.

Im working on that myself with Taoist philosophy and yoga.

 

[Viridian]

It's an interesting problem, isn't it? As a non-medical aspiring professional, I would ask you if you think you're "sick," if your experiences get in the way of you accomplishing activities of daily living or achieving [reasonable--there's another can of worms, right?] goals that you set for yourself.

What about ego-syntonic disorders? Don't they fail your first criterion?

Also, just curious: what about the way the DSM groups/organizes different sorts of disorders? Do you also find it incorrect?

im not sure why - histrionic is merely expressive - someone who has a seductive personality, who is openly emotional, etc.

I could get into it more, but I dont even think being histrionic is pathological, its more like personality traits that annoy certain kinds of people. It merely means being dramatic, for the most part. You could potentially see this in IxFx but I would agree its more of an F thing.

To me histrionic personality disorder is just sexist, finding sexually confident women threatening even while similar behavior is encouraged in men, and it would be combined with expressiveness of emotion, that bugs some people, they call it emo now, but there have always been femme fatales and flaming gay men and strippers and I think even the old gothic movement was pretty theatrical at its core. So was punk.

BPD on the other hand is entirely external, the person with BPD doesn't have a stable sense of self, acts out, hates being alone. Besides people with BPD are pretty sick, the ones Ive known.

I think people with HPD are usually more highly functioning and may be written of as annoying or entertaining, depending on who is around them.

BPD needs to stay in the DSM far more than HPD or even NPD.

Another thing I want to add here is that I dont think HPD should be clustered in with BPD under any circumstance because a defining HPD feature is pride in ones self, unwillingness to conform, while people with BPD have a poor sense of self.

HPD people are also more highly functioning, and in my estimation are being perceived as eccentric or annoying but that doesn't make them sick.

For example an emo kid who dresses theatrically and is emotionally expressive may just be...being themselves, not being shallow or demanding to be the center of attention.

I really think HPD is a perception issue, by the outsider. Its devaluing a certain kind of person who may be totally functioning, but different.

I was only briefly diagnosed with this by one person aNd Im fairly certain its because I said I was an adult entertainer.

No bueno.

People with BPD also often break the law or hurt others, while people with HPD are again...annoying? Non conformist? Irritatingly sexy?

I dont think it belongs in the DSM.

I thought HPD was associated with mania (which can be unhealthy in large quantities)? Or am I thinking of mood disorders? I could see attention-seeking for its own sake and creating artifical drama as unhealthy, though...

Also, could you share your thoughts on NPD?


Mind you, this sort of subject is a bit of a sore spot for me because my mother is a psychiatrist... She does view the DSM as a fallible tool, though.

 

[Eugene Watson VIII]

Why can't I hold all these feels man

 

[Eileen]

What about ego-syntonic disorders? Don't they fail your first criterion?

Well, sure. I was addressing prplchknz pretty specifically there.

Also, just curious: what about the way the DSM groups/organizes different sorts of disorders? Do you also find it incorrect?

I don't really "find incorrect" anything in particular about the DSM. I just find it problematic and fallible, as your mother apparently does too:

Mind you, this sort of subject is a bit of a sore spot for me because my mother is a psychiatrist... She does view the DSM as a fallible tool, though.

 

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION]

mania and hypomania are part of mood disorders like cyclothymic disorder and bipolar disorder

I think this person wanted to give me a personality disorder diagnosis instead of a mood disorder, but no one before or since agreed with her, finding my lack of emotional control genuine, and showing severe anxiety symptoms like panic attacks etc.

HPD is probably very damaging if it actually is more similar to BPD, which is why I think they're erasing it and putting it under BPD, so perhaps there will be less diagnosis of HPD. I hope we've reached a point in society where we dont call drag queens or people in theatrical subcultures "sick."

as for NPD I think they are actually leaving it in now because of so much protest

people with NPD tend to be more emotionally abusive than anything else, which is why I dont think its as bad as BPD. However I do think it is unhealthy because the narcissist has very little empathy for others. However people with NPD, like those with HPD, are highly functioning and some people would argue they are often successful.

However on a personal level I find narcissists MORALLY DANGEROUS, even if they aren't "sick."

i think the B cluster are all clustered together correctly though, because they all relate to emotions and relationships

also I think the Big Five is crap

 

[Viridian]

mania and hypomania are part of mood disorders like cyclothymic disorder and bipolar disorder

I think this person wanted to give me a personality disorder diagnosis instead of a mood disorder, but no one before or since agreed with her, finding my lack of emotional control genuine, and showing severe anxiety symptoms like panic attacks etc.

HPD is probably very damaging if it actually is more similar to BPD, which is why I think they're erasing it and putting it under BPD, so perhaps there will be less diagnosis of HPD. I hope we've reached a point in society where we dont call drag queens or people in theatrical subcultures "sick."

Ah, okay, so you're suggesting broadening the scope of the BPD diagnosis? I could get behind that, even though the term "borderline" has been pretty much completely deformed by the layman's vocabulary... Much like "OCD", "schizophrenic" and whatnot.

Also, I admit I have a lot of reservations concerning the etymology of HPD - it comes from "hysteria", which in turn comes from hysteros, or uterus... :/

as for NPD I think they are actually leaving it in now because of so much protest

people with NPD tend to be more emotionally abusive than anything else, which is why I dont think its as bad as BPD. However I do think it is unhealthy because the narcissist has very little empathy for others. However people with NPD, like those with HPD, are highly functioning and some people would argue they are often successful.

However on a personal level I find narcissists MORALLY DANGEROUS, even if they aren't "sick."

i think the B cluster are all clustered together correctly though, because they all relate to emotions and relationships

also I think the Big Five is crap

Isn't being dangerous to others part of the criteria for diagnostics? If not, then why is Antisocial Personality Disorder covered?

Also, from a layman's perspective, I agree with the Big Five thing. If there's a "right answer", it's not much of a personality typology, is it? ¬_¬

 

[Coriolis]

And meds do not change the real personality either. My sister was an ISFJ before she showed severe symptoms and took meds. She was always a very structured and self sacrificing high Fe individual, who said things like if she were wealthy she would still stay where she is from.

I have wondered about this. It makes sense that we are born with a personality (type) which is based in how our brains are wired, and remains in essence unchanged throughout our lives. If something readjusts that wiring, though - either brain injury, or psychotropic medications - could that not influence one's basic personality?

 

[Thalassa]

I have wondered about this. It makes sense that we are born with a personality (type) which is based in how our brains are wired, and remains in essence unchanged throughout our lives. If something readjusts that wiring, though - either brain injury, or psychotropic medications - could that not influence one's basic personality?

People seem to think psychotropic medications are like doing ten hits of acid or overdosing on ecstasy.

I don't comprehend living in a culture where people will do massive, dangerous amounts of street drugs, but act like the smallest amount necessary of a psychotropic drug are so dangerous.

Especially under extreme circumstances, like a person having severe schizophrenic symptoms to the point that they may never return to reality, or become catatonic, or someone being so depressed that they're suicidal.

Tell me, does drinking with your buddies in college change your personality? Because I would compare binge drinking more with brain injury than psychiatric meds...unless you like to overdose on your meds.

And I fucking dare anyone to try to say marijuana is harmless, or a "cure all" as it triggers schizophrenia in people already genetically prone to the disease.

 

[Thalassa]

Ah, okay, so you're suggesting broadening the scope of the BPD diagnosis? I could get behind that, even though the term "borderline" has been pretty much completely deformed by the layman's vocabulary... Much like "OCD", "schizophrenic" and whatnot.

No, I am not. I am saying they are trying to include now some HPD diagnoses as borderline, but this is only okay if they're doing it with people diagnosed with HPD are actually showing more like psychotic or borderline symptoms. This would many the more "minor cases" would be dismissed entirely, which is the only positive thing I see about it.

Also, I admit I have a lot of reservations concerning the etymology of HPD - it comes from "hysteria", which in turn comes from hysteros, or uterus... :/

Yes, which is why I think it's sexist, and why it would be so applicable to men usually if they are more feminine acting or cross-dressing gay men, or very emotionally expressive men who have a theatrical flair.

It's essentially judging women for being openly sexual (which is where hysteria comes from originally, in Victorian times vibrators were prescribed to prevent so-called "hysteria") and also for being emotionally expressive, or - surprise!- modeling themselves externally to what society says is beautiful or sexy, because they're taught that this is what women are supposed to be.

I'm interested in the take that some people have on personality disorders, in general, that different temperaments or personality types are being judged for not fitting a particular "norm" that is seen as average, OR that this behavior is unhealthy, but should not be treated by medication.

However, I am not of the opinion that medication should be done away with entirely, because I really don't think there's anything romantic about Sylvia Plath sticking her head in an oven at thirty, or a brilliant, captivating woman like Zelda Fitzgerald spending the latter half of her life in and out of mental institutions (where incidentally she did most of her later writing and all of her best art) ...OBVIOUSLY MEDICATION IS HELPING SOME PEOPLE LIVE LONGER, MORE PRODUCTIVE, MORE SATISFYING LIVES.

But I don't think everyone should be medicated, and I'm skeptical, of course, about ADHD and medicating children.

Natural methods are good (like melatonin for sleep, or something I've found called "nerve tonic" which is megadoses of minerals and so forth your brain and nervous system need...) and a famous psychiatrist suggested mega doses of vitamin B and other supplements ALONG WITH CLOZAPINE for treatment of schizophrenia. But we cannot eliminate medication entirely, I think that's a terrible suggestion.

 

[Eileen]

Natural methods are good (like melatonin for sleep, or something I've found called "nerve tonic" which is megadoses of minerals and so forth your brain and nervous system need...) and a famous psychiatrist suggested mega doses of vitamin B and other supplements ALONG WITH CLOZAPINE for treatment of schizophrenia. But we cannot eliminate medication entirely, I think that's a terrible suggestion.

Just so we're clear (in case you're responding to me still), I never suggested that we should eliminate medication entirely. I just think we should actively pursue non-medication approaches as well (especially family and community psychoeducation, especially community approaches to care as is seen in other places like China).

 

[Coriolis]

People seem to think psychotropic medications are like doing ten hits of acid or overdosing on ecstasy.

I don't comprehend living in a culture where people will do massive, dangerous amounts of street drugs, but act like the smallest amount necessary of a psychotropic drug are so dangerous.

Especially under extreme circumstances, like a person having severe schizophrenic symptoms to the point that they may never return to reality, or become catatonic, or someone being so depressed that they're suicidal.

Tell me, does drinking with your buddies in college change your personality? Because I would compare binge drinking more with brain injury than psychiatric meds...unless you like to overdose on your meds.

We can broaden my question to include "recreational" drugs and alcohol - really anything that would have an appreciable and irreversible, or at least long-term, effect on brain chemistry or physiology. I am not making moral statements, or assumptions about the effects of any of these chemicals. I am rather asking about the actual effects on the brain of such drugs/chemicals, and their potential for influencing inborn personality. I have a friend who experienced a significant brain injury, and believes it resulted in permanent changes to her personality, but neither she nor I are an expert on neurology, hence my question.

 

[prplchknz]

when im psychotic i have hard time communicating orally i can communicate just fine in writing, so i become more introverted during periods of psychosis plus i'm really scared to tell people things in real life. plus sometimes I don't know where I am, i know i'm in one of two places but i don't know which is the correct answer it can be anything from the year, to a place, to whether or not i'm dreaming.so I don't know in some cases withdrawing and extreme introversion can be a sign not always