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How to rationalize mainstreams obsession with statistics?

Fluffywolf

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These days, you can't turn your head or you'll hear it on the radio, see it on tv, or read about it in the newspaper.

Statistics.

And not just any statistics, nooooo, but statistics about subjects where you have to ask yourself, was it really neccesary to investigate this. Is there any practical use for this? Was this all you could think of when you were deciding on how you would spend your time?

But the truth is it seems to sell. Otherwise it would not be so publically advertised and common.

So what is it about statistics that peaks peoples interests?
 

ceecee

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These days, you can't turn your head or you'll hear it on the radio, see it on tv, or read about it in the newspaper.

Statistics.

And not just any statistics, nooooo, but statistics about subjects where you have to ask yourself, was it really neccesary to investigate this. Is there any practical use for this? Was this all you could think of when you were deciding on how you would spend your time?

But the truth is it seems to sell. Otherwise it would not be so publically advertised and common.

So what is it about statistics that peaks peoples interests?


Numbers don't lie. They may not tell the entire story but they show empirical evidence and many times, that's all people are looking for. Do I think it's necessary to apply it to anything, at least to the point of - who cares about this anyway? Maybe, maybe not. Social media is always using stats to justify the time people waste with them. Sports of course but they also don't always give a full picture. Where statistics become fallible is in the interpretation. There isn't a black and white yes or no answer every time. Even something like determining the Cy Young Award winner. You take the number of losses, ERA, WHIP - not a lot to interpret there. The issue comes with team impact and something that puts one player above the rest. How do you measure that? I don't know but I don't think sports writers always have the best answer.
 

Fluffywolf

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Mmh, as a Ti dom I think all I can do is swallow it and let it happen. Still from my point of view, it's pretty much downright manipulation though. Sure, you INTJ's will be able to contextualize it properly and see it for what it really is (I hope), but so many people that won't, and without a proper explanation, people are basicly being manipulated. Polluted by half-truths that in many cases take the whole concept out of proportions towards whatever political or hidden agenda the creators might have.

Sometimes I think I'm borderline conspiracy lunatic. :p
 

UniqueMixture

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People like to corroborate their worldviews with rubrics
 

Jaguar

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Stats are so easily manipulated it's like a pervert offering a child candy.
Let me guess, those who think stats are the real deal also think the same of: FDA approved. ;)
 

Santosha

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Maybe we need some stats on who buys it and who doesn't? :laugh:

No really, when I hear statistics, especially via TV/Radio etc. I always questions them. I instantly think about who is funding the study, who they benefit, how data is collected and interpreted, etc. When someone throws out a statistic to support their side in a discussion, I will almost always inquire more about the study just to see if they are forming a judgement then finding "evidence" to support it or the other way around.

But ya, my point is that I don't typically buy it and most of the people I know don't either. Why assume that most people are not also like this?
 

Santosha

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So what is it about statistics that peaks peoples interests?

Sense of security, reality check-back (albeit poor), over trusting authority, too lazy to think for ones self?
Many people don't have the time to pour over research...
 

Lark

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These days, you can't turn your head or you'll hear it on the radio, see it on tv, or read about it in the newspaper.

Statistics.

And not just any statistics, nooooo, but statistics about subjects where you have to ask yourself, was it really neccesary to investigate this. Is there any practical use for this? Was this all you could think of when you were deciding on how you would spend your time?

But the truth is it seems to sell. Otherwise it would not be so publically advertised and common.

So what is it about statistics that peaks peoples interests?

Yeah, I've noticed, I've also a strong feeling that the last couple of non-fiction books and the whole of the pop (libertarian) economics genre like freakonomics or the armchair economist could be reclassified as a statistic reads.

Usually its a regurgitation or recycling of academic papers and the research methodology, evidence gathering and statistics are all broadly similar too.

The last years worth of these kind of books and reading them and, for the most part, disagreeing with them has probably taught me more about research methodology and statistics as my time at university. A hell of a lot of the time it is the nonsense people remember or statistics of the "lies, damn lies and statistics" variety, such as the oft quoted perentage of the brain which people dont use or one in ten supposedly being homosexual (both inaccurate or out of context citations).
 

Lark

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statistics make people believe there is objective reality.

Well now, just because something can be asued, such as statistics, doesnt mean it cant be used appropriately.

The conclusion you draw is absurd aswell as mistaken.
 

Stanton Moore

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Well now, just because something can be asued, such as statistics, doesnt mean it cant be used appropriately.

The conclusion you draw is absurd aswell as mistaken.

People interpret statistics to support their pre-suppositions. Something that is based on interpretation isn't a reflection of objective reality, only one's wishes and prejudices.
 

Lark

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People interpret statistics to support their pre-suppositions. Something that is based on interpretation isn't a reflection of objective reality, only one's wishes and prejudices.

Which is the definition of bad research or the abuse of research.

Its a different matter to a properly designed research methodology and testable hypothesis.

I mean are you suggesting that the applied science which provides the evidence base for pharmocology or medicine, health services and treatment is all just subjective opinion?

I know you, like a lot of kids who're looking for a firmer basis for rejecting your parents or society's expectations in hope of a shad, are pretty hot on nietzsche but its impossible to actually live with the full consequences of those beliefs.
 

Stanton Moore

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Which is the definition of bad research or the abuse of research.

Its a different matter to a properly designed research methodology and testable hypothesis.

I mean are you suggesting that the applied science which provides the evidence base for pharmocology or medicine, health services and treatment is all just subjective opinion?
I know you, like a lot of kids who're looking for a firmer basis for rejecting your parents or society's expectations in hope of a shad, are pretty hot on nietzsche but its impossible to actually live with the full consequences of those beliefs.

I don't believe that's what the OP had in mind. I was responding to that.
That I have never stated anything about Nietzsche seems to have escaped your all-seeing eye.
 

Lark

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I don't believe that's what the OP had in mind. I was responding to that.
That I have never stated anything about Nietzsche seems to have escaped your all-seeing eye.

I see the whole "there's no such thing as objectivity/objective order" as a legacy of Nietzsche, whether you mention him or not its in every post you make when you post like that.

Whether as a response to the OP or not you said statistics were wrongful because they caused people to believe in an objective order. If there's no objective order and no objectivity there's no medicine or science.
 

Stanton Moore

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I see the whole "there's no such thing as objectivity/objective order" as a legacy of Nietzsche, whether you mention him or not its in every post you make when you post like that.

Whether as a response to the OP or not you said statistics were wrongful because they caused people to believe in an objective order. If there's no objective order and no objectivity there's no medicine or science.

I agree to an extent. But you mentioned pharmacology, and that's a good example of statistics and methodologies forming conclusions for profit rather than as a revelation of demonstrable truth. Look at anti-depressants: most are only marginally effective and not the panacea they are marketed to be. Big pharma has interpreted the studies in order to produce a foregone conclusion.
What is ‘objectively’ true about anti-depressants? That depends on the prejudices of the interpreter.
I’m not saying that science doesn’t often get it right or close, but it does not always.
My comment originally was referring to the use of statistics in political discourse, which further proves my point.
 

Lark

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I agree to an extent. But you mentioned pharmacology, and that's a good example of statistics and methodologies forming conclusions for profit rather than as a revelation of demonstrable truth. Look at anti-depressants: most are only marginally effective and not the panacea they are marketed to be. Big pharma has interpreted the studies in order to produce a foregone conclusion.
What is ‘objectively’ true about anti-depressants? That depends on the prejudices of the interpreter.
I’m not saying that science doesn’t often get it right or close, but it does not always.
My comment originally was referring to the use of statistics in political discourse, which further proves my point.

I believe your point was that there is no objective order, at least its what your original post was. Inserting caveats, conditions or contingent points or exceptions to the rule doesnt really change the fact that there is an objective reality.

Its a hard one isnt it? On the one hand you'd like to embrace relativism or total subjectivism but on the other that undermines science which is a modern contra traditional thing too, you should probably think about this for a bit more.
 

Stanton Moore

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I believe your point was that there is no objective order, at least its what your original post was. Inserting caveats, conditions or contingent points or exceptions to the rule doesnt really change the fact that there is an objective reality.

Its a hard one isnt it? On the one hand you'd like to embrace relativism or total subjectivism but on the other that undermines science which is a modern contra traditional thing too, you should probably think about this for a bit more.

Oh, Lark, if you only could hear yourself.
 

dala

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This isn't about whether reality is objective or subjective; its about whether statistics are used in an objective or subjective way. I would argue that most (maybe even all) statistical analysis is based on subjective information or subjective interpretation, even things that should be based on cold hard facts.

For instance, looks at a given study on, say, literacy rates. How is 'literacy' defined? How is it measured? What controls are in place? Did the person who sponsored/designed the study have a specific outcome in mind? These things create a lack of objectivity from the outset. Then you have things like data mining, people running the data through a number of statistical models until they get the results they want, etc. Even if you get through the actual research, you're going to have subjectivity come in through biased reporting or suppression, incorrect inferences, arguments about correlation and causation, and people just plain manipulating charts.

Throw in a money motive, and you might as well just make it all up at you go for the accuracy you're going to get.
 
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