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Introverted and Extroverted Loops and Mood Disorders

Thalassa

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I wonder, just out of curiousity, if anyone believes there's a link to people with cyclothymia or bipolar II weaving in and out of introverted and extroverted loops, like introverted loops during depression, and extroverted loops during mania.

The reason why I say this is because there are different forms of bipolar disorder, and some of them don't involve hallucinations or losing touch with reality, they're primarily mood and activity related...and not everyone behaves the same. Like some people are more "happy" in mania (Ne/Fe?) and some people are more angry (Te/Se?)...I have wondered for a while if the way some people experience mania varies due to personality type.

I'm not saying that being in an introverted loop (or an extroverted loop) means you have bipolar disorder, but that people who ACTUALLY DO have bipolar disorder will tend to fluctuate to imbalanced loops according to their own function order.

Because a balanced person is balanced.
 

Halla74

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I've never been one to ponder much on MBTI "loops" of any kind.
They just don't make sense to me.
In my mind, they are "over abstractions" that might very well be better defined by descriptive language of better understood phenomena.

Also, please understand I'm merely stating my views, not making claims as to what "is" or "is not" - CORRECT.

In the case of bi-polar 2, I know two people who have it, and I know them very well.

One is an introvert, the other is an extrovert.

In the case of EITHER experiencing a depressive episode of any magnitude, I SEE LESS OF THEM, and I HEAR LESS FROM THEM.

Depression is remarkably good at making most anyone prefer reclusion over contact with others.

And in terms of considering introversion vs. extroversion, I am thinking of them in terms of whether they are "energized" or "drained" by contact with other people; and NOT in terms of whether they are "social" or "anti-social."

That's my from the hip take on it.

Any of my babbles registering as sensible, or not?

:shock:

-Alex
 

INTP

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I wonder, just out of curiousity, if anyone believes there's a link to people with cyclothymia or bipolar II weaving in and out of introverted and extroverted loops, like introverted loops during depression, and extroverted loops during mania.

The reason why I say this is because there are different forms of bipolar disorder, and some of them don't involve hallucinations or losing touch with reality, they're primarily mood and activity related...and not everyone behaves the same. Like some people are more "happy" in mania (Ne/Fe?) and some people are more angry (Te/Se?)...I have wondered for a while if the way some people experience mania varies due to personality type.

I'm not saying that being in an introverted loop (or an extroverted loop) means you have bipolar disorder, but that people who ACTUALLY DO have bipolar disorder will tend to fluctuate to imbalanced loops according to their own function order.

Because a balanced person is balanced.

i dont know enough people with bipolar, so i cant really say to what extend they act according to their functions, so this is just hypothesizing

i think with bipolar it is about being in extraverted and introverted modes. naturally psychological type is still there to shape how person behaves when in depressed or manic state. however i dont see it as ESFP being purely in SeTe mode when in manic state and FiNi when in depressed mode. i think with the case of ESFP, Te will be heavily repressed when in experiencing mania and it will be mostly SeFi with Se overload and Fi not working properly for the persons own good. basically if you are in happy go lucky mood(with everyone), you wont be concentrating on negatives as much as positives and in mania this Fi concentrating only on things that give positive judgment, repression of TeNi and Se leading the way too much for Fi is what its fundamentally about in this case.
now when the depression part hits, its more about inferior Ni, Fi and them leading how Te analyzes the world. naturally you dont lose Se, its just repressed to the point where its not guiding you so much. when Fi is led by positive aspects of Se in mania, now its being led by negative shit lurking in the shadows, which erupts through inferior.

but i think as with any repression, more you push stuff in your shadow, more vigorously it erupts. thats why these both ends of the (depressive-manic)spectrum are so strong. and i think people with higher mania, also suffer from more severe depression because of this.
 
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garbage

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Any of my babbles registering as sensible, or not?
It's the best kind of sensible.

From firsthand experience, I can tell you that JCF isn't a good way to look at the poles. You can stretch JCF to try to make sense of a bipolar person, and you can describe the poles as such-and-such a loop, but you're doing yourself more of a service if you shift from diagnosing by JCF and instead diagnosing by the actual disorder.

Mania is characterized by unbridled optimism, living at a fast pace, having a grandiose sense of self-confidence, and sometimes losing patience with a world that doesn't keep up with you. Depression is pretty much.. not that.
 

Stanton Moore

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There is no relationship. Typological functions are based on a high-level theory of behavior that has little clinical basis. 'Bipolar disorder' and 'cyclothymia' are based on clinically observable behavior and on objective knowledge of neurology.The former is speculative, the later based on observation. The former, not unlike astrology, can be used to postulate features without adherence to a neurological underpinning; the later cannot because it requires parity with objective data.
 
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Thalassa

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It's the best kind of sensible.

From firsthand experience, I can tell you that JCF isn't a good way to look at the poles. You can stretch JCF to try to make sense of a bipolar person, and you can describe the poles as such-and-such a loop, but you're doing yourself more of a service if you shift from diagnosing by JCF and instead diagnosing by the actual disorder.

Mania is characterized by unbridled optimism, living at a fast pace, having a grandiose sense of self-confidence, and sometimes losing patience with a world that doesn't keep up with you. Depression is pretty much.. not that.

I'm cyclothymic and I know persons who have Bipolar I and II, or who are cyclothymic or schizoaffective, so I don't need anyone to explain to me what bipolar disorder is.

I'm speculating on why some people, when manic, go blow their bank account on hookers, while other people fly into angry rages and get into fights, some can't sleep for three days but write an award winning play, and others go on shopping sprees while screwing over all their friends and family members and giggling to themselves in the dark.

I'm speculating over why mania and depression visibly differs in its expression in different people.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I'm guessing it has to do with ego and its development.
 
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garbage

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I'm cyclothymic and I know persons who have Bipolar I and II, or who are cyclothymic or schizoaffective, so I don't need anyone to explain to me what bipolar disorder is.
Which works out well, because I wasn't explaining it to you.

I'm speculating on why some people, when manic, go blow their bank account on hookers, while other people fly into angry rages and get into fights, some can't sleep for three days but write an award winning play, and others go on shopping sprees while screwing over all their friends and family members and giggling to themselves in the dark.

I'm speculating over why mania and depression visibly differs in its expression in different people.
I'm speculating about this, too. It's just that I'm of the mind that JCF is a terrible way to view mental disorders.
 

Thalassa

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Which works out well, because I wasn't explaining it to you.


I'm speculating about this, too. It's just that I'm of the mind that JCF is a terrible way to view mental disorders.

Why? I didn't say that it made any one more or less mentally ill, or that it is the way to diagnose someone, but that it explains how different personalities cognitively express mania or hypomania and depression.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Well. If you agree with Freud,

...the id is the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends; the ego is the organized, realistic part; and the super-ego plays the critical and moralizing role.

So, I think our minds seek balance, just like everything else in nature. And, as with any state of being or 'disorder,' how a person behaves under the throes is perhaps driven by what is lacking in the psyche, or what needs expression in the ego, id, or superego, depending on the individual. Jung would likely say its the unconscious becoming conscious. ?

I think Jung and cognitive functions explain well our nature, while Freud's ideas of the psyche explain well our nurture.
 
G

garbage

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Why? I didn't say that it made any one more or less mentally ill, or that it is the way to diagnose someone, but that it explains how different personalities cognitively express mania or hypomania and depression.
I understood you when you said that someone in a loop may not necessarily be bipolar.

You were wondering whether anyone believes that there's a link between expressions of mania and function loops. My answer is "probably not," but I'll ask my psych colleagues if they can clue me in on why different symptoms of mania present themselves differently in different people.

If you want to try to figure out whether cognitive functions are related to expression of mania, you could treat the person for the disorder, see what their cognitive function patterns are, and determine whether their behavior as an unhealthy person matches up with their healthy type. I mean, that's what I've tried to do for myself.
 

Thalassa

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Well. If you agree with Freud,



So, I think our minds seek balance, just like everything else in nature. And, as with any state of being or 'disorder,' how a person behaves under the throes is perhaps driven by what is lacking in the psyche, or what needs expression in the ego, id, or superego, depending on the individual. Jung would likely say its the unconscious becoming conscious. ?

Okay so Freud would say what is lacking in us, or what Jung called the shadow, would emerge...rather than cognitive loops, it would be the repressed shadow. (Just clarifying if that's what you mean?)

I think Jung and cognitive functions explain well our nature, while Freud's ideas of the psyche explain well our nurture.

Aha. Okay, interesting point.
 

INTP

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Well. If you agree with Freud,



So, I think our minds seek balance, just like everything else in nature. And, as with any state of being or 'disorder,' how a person behaves under the throes is perhaps driven by what is lacking in the psyche, or what needs expression in the ego, id, or superego, depending on the individual. Jung would likely say its the unconscious becoming conscious. ?

I think Jung and cognitive functions explain well our nature, while Freud's ideas of the psyche explain well our nurture.

yea, but other stuff from jung, like complexes explain nurture better than freud. and how archetypes shape our complexes, explains nature via nurture, which is how people see genetic-environment interaction today(and jung saw archetypes as genetic and complexes as nurture). its funny that todays psychology is much more jungian(or sees psyche in more similar fashion) than freudian, even tho people freud is the more well known one and people dont even realize that what they say now, jung said similar things 100 years ago already, but not many listened..
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Okay so Freud would say what is lacking in us, or what Jung called the shadow, would emerge...rather than cognitive loops, it would be the repressed shadow. (Just clarifying if that's what you mean?)

Yeah, I guess so. Nice tie. :)

yea, but other stuff from jung, like complexes explain nurture better than freud. and how archetypes shape our complexes, explains nature via nurture, which is how people see genetic-environment interaction today(and jung saw archetypes as genetic and complexes as nurture). its funny that todays psychology is much more jungian(or sees psyche in more similar fashion) than freudian, even tho people freud is the more well known one and people dont even realize that what they say now, jung said similar things 100 years ago already, but not many listened..

Don't know much about Jungian complexes. Will you explain them to me?

Yeah, funny that about Freud in our modern mindset versus Jung. I think it's possibly all the sex stuff, you know, Oedipus complex and all.
 

INTP

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Don't know much about Jungian complexes. Will you explain them to me?

Yeah, funny that about Freud in our modern mindset versus Jung. I think it's possibly all the sex stuff, you know, Oedipus complex and all.

complex is defined as 'feeling toned association around a common theme', these are the structures in the personal unconscious, like ego is the central organizing structure in the consciousness and archetypes are the structures in collective unconscious. even tho the word complex is usually misused as being something negative, its not referring to negative things. the basic idea is that we got complexes about everything. good example would be money complex, money itself is the theme and there are feeling toned associations that make up how you see money. this 'feeling toned association' has nothing to do with feeling function. for example with the money complex, first before you build these feeling toned associations around money, coins look like some random metal object and paper money just looks like some fancy paper. but when you are growing up and you learn to associate things to money, like when you got your first job and was able to buy a car, when you got some money from your parents as a kid and were able to trade it for candy, etc etc. this way these unconscious feeling toned associations build your concept of money, how you view money is the product of the associations you have on this theme called money. or the theme could be mother and the associations would be all the things you associate to this theme, which would be your mother complex, how you view the theme 'mother'.

i think the reason why complex got so negative view in the public was because basically if you have negative or disturbing associations around money, it might make for example you an compulsive gambler. and the point of jungian therapy(or part of it, depending on the case) is to bring the causes for these disturbing associations to consciousness, so that you can work with the gambling(or what ever) problem.

the main idea in the structure of psyche is that the deepest level is the collective unconscious, then the personal unconscious and then consciousness. and that archetypes from the collective unconscious can give archetypal aspects to your complexes(which is the case with freuds oedipus/elektra complex), or the theme of a complex might be archetypal. and complexes kinda lead your conscious behavior to a certain degree. if you for example are compulsive gambler and you dont want to be one, its the complex that is guiding you to gamble, even tho you consciously know its wrong.

oh and jung didnt disagree with freud on his stuff, except when it comes to freuds idea that human psyche, or actually libido is purely sexual, jung saw it as much wider thing, basically what we today call action potential in neuroscience. jung saw libido as being the overall life force, and agreed with freud that there are also sexual aspects to it and that sexuality is a big part of being an human and guides our behavior to a large degree, its just that he saw that there is also something else on being human, which freud couldnt handle, so they broke up..
 
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