People who say they will change

[SilkRoad]

People with serious psychological issues, harmful patterns of behaviour, etc, which affect themselves and those around them... It's so easy to say that you will change. Doing it is another thing.

In your experience, with the people who say "I'll change...I know I can do this...you'll see, I can change. If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change." Do they usually end up changing? How long do you stick around? How much do you let yourself be damaged by their behaviour before you call it a day? What does it take for them to change? Does it tend to help if you - their friend, SO, or whatever the relationship may be - leave them behind after explaining that their behaviour is too harmful? Is that a positive motivation?

 

[Mia.]

I think it depends on what behavior we're talking about, as well as the type of relationship. In general leaving them behind would hardly qualify as positive motivation.

 

[SilkRoad]

I think it depends on what behavior we're talking about, as well as the type of relationship. In general leaving them behind would hardly qualify as positive motivation.

Well, in my case this thread was partially (largely) inspired by a "friendship". Someone considerably younger than me - I've been more of a mentor to her though she wants to view it as an equal friendship. (I had friendships when I was her age - ie. 20 - with people 15 years or more older, so it can be done.) She has Borderline Personality Disorder traits. Extremely clingy, tries to introduce herself into all aspects of my life, very invasive, doesn't respect boundaries, etc etc. I've had talks with her about her behaviour to the point of becoming physically ill over it, have set firm boundaries, etc. And it's just, I don't think she's able to respect my boundaries. She may want to - she claims to want to - but the behaviour consistently indicates otherwise. And I'm tired of the conflict. It's no lie when they say INFJs can become ill from constant conflict. not to speak of the fact that it's not much fun having your boundaries constantly disrespected and violated.

So I'm thinking to tell her that the "friendship" is off, effectively, and we need to move it to the level of acquaintanceship. (I can't cut her out completely as I see her semi-regularly). This, of course, is exactly what she fears and will confirm her worst fears - ie. the worst fears that make her so clingy and unbearable to be around. But I've been negotiating with her like this, and having constant conflicts (to the point of screaming "leave me alone" at her because she'd followed me and wouldn't go even when I calmly asked her to leave), for a year and a half.

It's a completely different ball game, but I suppose I also had in mind the abusive spouse who constantly says he/she will change. There can be threats to life and limb there and so I don't think giving people indefinite chances is a good idea.

 

[Mia.]

Mmm. Tough situation. I have a friend who's a therapist. Maybe I'll pick his brain.

 

[SilkRoad]

Mmm. Tough situation. I have a friend who's a therapist. Maybe I'll pick his brain.

She is, at least, starting therapy again. She was in therapy for a bit and gave it up (after lying to the therapist about how she was doing) because she "didn't want to be reliant on a therapist." Of course, what she failed to see in this was that she was essentially being reliant on someone like me and using me for free therapy/emotional vampirism. But she only started up again because I told her I couldn't stand all the emotional vomit and that she'd better do something about the state she was in. It all sounds rather harsh, but being kindly and babying this girl has got me nowhere. She just views that as an opportunity to glom on harder.

If your therapist friend has any comments I'd be very interested. And about the wider question, I guess. I know it's much too wide for there to be anything like a single answer. I'm sort of interested in people's experiences. I am a bit worried that if I tell this girl the friendship is off she'll...try to commit suicide or something. I think it's unlikely but I wouldn't rule it out. Her parents (she still lives at home) aren't much use for support, which is part of the problem, but she does have a somewhat wider support network (if she didn't look at it largely with disdain) and they are aware of what's going on with her.

 

[SilkRoad]

I suppose another even wider issue for me is simply the fact that talk is very, very cheap. I've become increasingly aware of that in recent years. Much of what comes out of a majority of people's mouths is pure crap and has nothing to do with reality or their actual intentions.

I think this is especially worth bearing in mind when people have manipulative or even abusive patterns of behaviour laid down, and keep claiming they'll change. It seems all too likely that it's just part of the manipulation.

 

[ceecee]

People with serious psychological issues, harmful patterns of behaviour, etc, which affect themselves and those around them... It's so easy to say that you will change. Doing it is another thing.

In your experience, with the people who say "I'll change...I know I can do this...you'll see, I can change. If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change." Do they usually end up changing? How long do you stick around? How much do you let yourself be damaged by their behaviour before you call it a day? What does it take for them to change? Does it tend to help if you - their friend, SO, or whatever the relationship may be - leave them behind after explaining that their behaviour is too harmful? Is that a positive motivation?

If I stick around toooo..what? Be more emotionally manipulated ("If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change.")? Abused? Put my own mental and physical health at risk? No. Hell no. Have a nice life, buh-bye. Motivation would be the last thing I'd care about because it doesn't matter.

 

[SilkRoad]

If I stick around toooo..what? Be more emotionally manipulated ("If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change.")? Abused? Put my own mental and physical health at risk? No. Hell no. Have a nice life, buh-bye. Motivation would be the last thing I'd care about because it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I must say that in the general area of bad/unacceptable behaviour, I've become less and less tolerant of "motives" as an excuse. Because that's what it tends to be, an excuse. "Oh, I had a traumatic childhood". "Oh, it's because I'm so afraid of losing you." "I meant well but instead did something totally mean-spirited and emotionally abusive." That's effectively what a lot of people say.

I realize that there are reasons for the way people behave. But the fact is that it's usually special pleading/an excuse, and it's still affecting me badly, regardless of what you meant by it. I mean, I don't expect people to accept it if I treat them like crap and then say "well, it's because I have x,y and z issues." If I treat them like crap I should expect to suffer the consequences and I should expect them to be uninterested in my reasons or excuses.

 

[cascadeco]

How long do you stick around? How much do you let yourself be damaged by their behaviour before you call it a day? What does it take for them to change?

I think change comes from within. The person of their own volition has to 'see the light', so to speak, and really want the change to happen - really see an actual need for it to happen; otherwise if they themselves don't really believe, in their core, that something must occur, they'll spend a great amount of time rationalizing, spinning their wheels, trying a myriad of coping mechanisms, and also snatching onto anyone and everyone who will be sympathetic to their cause and who on some level validate that their continued path is 'ok'. It will depend on the person though as to what components/methods/etc might nudge them in that direction of seeing the need. To initiate the change on their own and get to that place, they also have to value themselves and their own well-being high enough to be able to have the courage to take that road, because it is hard, and to grit their teeth through the process.

I don't let myself be damaged by them. I extricate myself and call it a day. At the moment, I don't have any relationships that are toxic/unbalanced, and I think it's because I don't allow myself to get into them in the first place, AND I don't come across as a person who is a 'Supporter/helper-no-matter-what' sort of person, so I don't think those sorts of people are drawn to me either. I'm not willing to sacrifice myself if over the course of time a consistent pattern of unevenness is present. And, if it was such a distressful/anxiety-provoking dynamic, I couldn't NOT leave it - I'd be hard-pressed to understand why I would allow myself to be destroyed in the process.

And.. life is short. I simply want to maximize my relationships and who I spend time with. I'm basically to the point where I am seeking out and building upon relationships that are mutually beneficial and balanced. Yes, absolutely, each person is going to go through low or stress points from time to time throughout life, which is one thing, so there will be ebbs and flows in who in the relationship is needing to give more at a given point, and that's fine - that's life. But the *overall*/baseline relationship must be even.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

So I'm thinking to tell her that the "friendship" is off, effectively, and we need to move it to the level of acquaintanceship. (I can't cut her out completely as I see her semi-regularly). This, of course, is exactly what she fears and will confirm her worst fears - ie. the worst fears that make her so clingy and unbearable to be around. But I've been negotiating with her like this, and having constant conflicts (to the point of screaming "leave me alone" at her because she'd followed me and wouldn't go even when I calmly asked her to leave), for a year and a half.

It's a completely different ball game, but I suppose I also had in mind the abusive spouse who constantly says he/she will change. There can be threats to life and limb there and so I don't think giving people indefinite chances is a good idea.

This again reminds me of my ENTJ friend who I had a conflict with. The only difference is she wanted to re-patching things up without apologizing but just walked back on her memory lane about the trips we'd spent last year (I see it as her signature move on saying "I'm sorry" by hinting) I waited for a few days before telling her not to dwell too much on the past via text messaging.

Then just few days ago, she texted me and said "I've been told that I'm diagnosed with Anxiety Attack." It was a truly wtf moment for me. I suppose your younger friend is somewhat similar to my friend.

If I were you, I would offer her bluntly in writing to explain how I felt toward her and that I need to be away from her at least for a couple of months before having any contact back with her. I would urge her to use these window period to re-examine and fix her behavior as last opportunity. I think it's like a final warning before cutting her off entirely. Perhaps once she is used to not having you around in her life, she'll become assimilated a life without clinging on you and eventually forget about you. If she does this again to you again after that window period (I recommend no less than three months), then you have the right to kick her out of your life as she has been warned.

The reason is I'm feeling from your post that there are certain aspects about her that you treasure (apart from all the negative traits you've listed), or else you wouldn't have created this thread seeking for advice, I assume?

When it comes to my friend, I know I would eventually take her back as I weigh both the good and bad and still consider she's a good person with a difficult personality. I will give obvious signals to her that I'm not happy with her through distancing (by texting her back a few days later), yet I will still try to be diplomatic to her.

About your thread topic, I think when people really want to change, they do it silently without the need of reassuring other parties that they will or that they are in the process of changing.

Anyhow, this must've been a tough situation for you! I hope you can resolve this with minimal conflict with her.

 

[NotOfTwo]

People with serious psychological issues, harmful patterns of behaviour, etc, which affect themselves and those around them... It's so easy to say that you will change. Doing it is another thing.

In your experience, with the people who say "I'll change...I know I can do this...you'll see, I can change. If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change." Do they usually end up changing? How long do you stick around? How much do you let yourself be damaged by their behaviour before you call it a day? What does it take for them to change? Does it tend to help if you - their friend, SO, or whatever the relationship may be - leave them behind after explaining that their behaviour is too harmful? Is that a positive motivation?

I just deleted my much better reply.

Ok, here goes, but shorter.

I had a friend for many years who was very intense and clingy. I would ask for a bit more space and be guilted for it. It ended when she angrily called me, telling me I needed to call her each day. Blah blah blah, anyway I realized all the times I had absorbed her anger and drama and really wasn't being heard myself. I decided to end the energy suck and told her we couldn't be close friends anymore. She really freaked out, saying I was a robot etc. It was messy.

I realize now that I didn't do her any favors by not having clearer boundaries. She called me last summer to tell me she was seeing two therapists and had stopped drinking altogether. I don't know if she would have taken steps sooner if I hadn't babied her along. I don't know. Sigh.

 

[garbage]

I have a feeling that I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective, but with largely the same results that you all have discussed already.

It's a crapshoot, especially if you're not careful with how much responsibility you take on for them and how invested you are in the outcome. I've helped one friend get off of some hardcore drugs and a terrible lifestyle (really, the extent of what I did for him was "be there as a friend," "tell him he could do it," and "serve as inspiration"), another seek necessary therapy (working with his work supervisor, driving him around, helping him find options, etc.), and so on. I've seen.. not so good outcomes as well.

I feel an internal pull to be strong enough to be responsible--previously, nearly completely responsible--for others, but I do know that the other person must take necessary steps toward their own happiness, that they are free agents. I would be disrespectful of their autonomy if I were to interfere to a large degree, and I would be codependent if my happiness depended upon theirs. Still, it's very difficult for me to give up when someone is struggling, especially if they're actually doing something about their problem.

To generalize a bit: Many, many people who say that they are doing something (or that they are something) are projecting an image that they either want you or themselves to believe. Some people use these images privately and silently to guide themselves--kind of like athletes use visualization.

But true character is something that is demonstrated, not necessarily spoken. If they don't have the character, then their words and actions won't align, and whatever plans they have to resolve their problem will fall apart.

 

[Ginkgo]

People with serious psychological issues, harmful patterns of behaviour, etc, which affect themselves and those around them... It's so easy to say that you will change. Doing it is another thing.

In your experience, with the people who say "I'll change...I know I can do this...you'll see, I can change. If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change." Do they usually end up changing? How long do you stick around? How much do you let yourself be damaged by their behaviour before you call it a day? What does it take for them to change? Does it tend to help if you - their friend, SO, or whatever the relationship may be - leave them behind after explaining that their behaviour is too harmful? Is that a positive motivation?

Obviously I don't know your friend, but those with BPD are usually emotionally unstable to the point of not being able to be grounded in a sense of identity. If so, not only would it be more unlikely for her to recognize the problems that she was having and stick with them, but if she ever recognized them, her emotions would very well swing and misguide any attempt at stabilizing her behavior in a way that suites you. Change always requires consistency. To change willingly means that recognizing those constants is essential.

If she gets her head straight, she should be able to recognize that security in your friendship is her positive motivation, and that you "defriending" her is only a negative alternative. If she doesn't then she probably doesn't deserve you anyway.

Good luck.

 

[Ginkgo]

I think change comes from within. The person of their own volition has to 'see the light', so to speak, and really want the change to happen - really see an actual need for it to happen; otherwise if they themselves don't really believe, in their core, that something must occur, they'll spend a great amount of time rationalizing, spinning their wheels, trying a myriad of coping mechanisms, and also snatching onto anyone and everyone who will be sympathetic to their cause and who on some level validate that their continued path is 'ok'. It will depend on the person though as to what components/methods/etc might nudge them in that direction of seeing the need. To initiate the change on their own and get to that place, they also have to value themselves and their own well-being high enough to be able to have the courage to take that road, because it is hard, and to grit their teeth through the process.

I agree with this analysis.

 

[Halla74]

People with serious psychological issues, harmful patterns of behaviour, etc, which affect themselves and those around them... It's so easy to say that you will change. Doing it is another thing.

In your experience, with the people who say "I'll change...I know I can do this...you'll see, I can change. If you just stick around a bit longer you'll see I will change." Do they usually end up changing? How long do you stick around? How much do you let yourself be damaged by their behaviour before you call it a day? What does it take for them to change? Does it tend to help if you - their friend, SO, or whatever the relationship may be - leave them behind after explaining that their behaviour is too harmful? Is that a positive motivation?

Actions speak louder than words.
Few such roads are of quick recovery or short duration.
If there is genuine harm, whatever form it might be, exhibited from your exposure to them, wish them well and part ways.
This is not turning your back on a sick person; this PRESERVING YOURSELF.

You have RIGHTS TOO.
Don't let the whole fucking world convince you that it is your obligation to be some pro-bono reelance hybrid/psychologist whipping board.

Best of luck,



-Alex

 

[KDude]

I try not to hang around anyone who wants me to change... for whatever reason.

If I do change, it'll be on my own time. This is something I've learned btw. I've been one of those people who've made that kind of promise. It's stupid though. I should have never bothered in the first place.

 

[Santosha]

Eh, I don't think this sounds like much of a friendship. What do you get out of this experience? I know that being a 30+ NF has definately caused me to wan't to reach out to people with emotional problems from time to time.. but I will be honest and admit that I only give of myself as freely as I choose and as feels comfortable to me (good ole Fi selfishness) At this point in time, I tend to see people with problems like this a mile away.. so it is never cultivated to the level you have here) I wonder how this has even developed? Not trying to sound harsh, but I believe there must have been a reason you allowed it to reach this point.. before she was so anchored to you that you now fear her unhealthy reaction.

THere is a tremendous amount of misinformation about BPD. Most people with BPD are actually seen as a type of gifted gone awry, and it is truly heart-breaking. Did you know that BPD can be observed phisiologically in many cases? The part of the brain that regulates emotional response is inactive, they lack any type of emotional skin and exist in a constant state of high alert. Those with BPD are extraordinary at reading people. Most are also exposed to psychological abuse at an early age, turning this gifted perception into a nightmare. If you really believe the girl is BPD, I'd take a much closer look at parental orientation and early childhood experience. It often runs in families (3 times as likely) and I believe this goes back to genetic pre-disposition.

Anyhow, this is clearly something you are not pleased with continuing. It sounds as though you maintain "friendship" out of fear or concern, but (i think) you should rid yourself of these obligations. If this girl is truly BPD, I'd imagine that she is perceptive enough to see your discomfort. No real friendship is built on this. Staying in the relation only trumps up her illusions of need, control and manipulation. She has a life long journey in overcoming this. Only she will save herself.

I would just be sensitive yet honest in the way you end it. Carefully explain to her in detail the boundaries that were crossed and the harm or consequence of this. Do not allow yourself to be vulnerable. Accept in advance that she is not going to take it well and that this is entirely out of your control. I imagine that she looks up to you and puts alot of value on your thoughts. Because of this, I think it'd be useful to emphasize the good qualities you've observed and that you think she is strong enough to overcome these difficulties. Then be done with it, and don't go back.

BTW.. I swear this song was written about someone with BPD. Great song.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfkJCyqCBc"]...[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Betty Blue]

I just keep thinking "boundries". You need to put them up.
Maybe talk to her about what is acceptable and what is not and tell her you need to put some things in place to protect yourself emotionally.
I see it working as an adaptation from the way you would deal with a rebellious/emotionally damaged teenager ...if they were your child or responsibility.
Not that she is your responsibility, you are your responsibility and only have to answer to yourself.

 

[entropie]

I'll change, promise !

 

[Lark]

People with serious psychological issues, harmful patterns of behaviour, etc, which affect themselves and those around them... It's so easy to say that you will change. Doing it is another thing.

Unless their behaviour is untypical and out of character and attributable to some definite crisis or trauma from which they are likely to recover and revert to their typical character once more they arent going to change, no matter what they say, in fact saying they will is part of an effort to get others to change and accept them and their behaviour as it is.

I know people who from their late teenage years to their twenties have became chaotic addicts, they've been telling people that its a phase, attributable to crisis and trauma, or that they will change, generally along the lines of accepting that she has a problem with alcohol or substances and refraining from abusing it and the behaviour which generally follows imbidding it, ie aggression and violence, but they've been consistently chaotic addicts. People around them might have changed or had to change to cope with them but they havent changed because it is who they are, as much as their height or bone structure.