Borderline Personality Disorder

[violaine]

It's definitely true. I slightly recognized these tendencies in myself during the first 4 months of my relationship with a BPD girl, but the drama was absolutely too unattractive. Plus I have a big ego and I couldn't believe a word of what she periodically said of my personality, my intelligence, my body, etc. (lots and lots of negative stuff), so I lost all the respect. I could see some "milder" guys having more trouble with that.

Yup, those type of people will often blame themselves for problems and a person with BPD is prone to blaming others.

I also think people without much relationship experience who pride themselves on being loyal can be drawn in and caught. It's so important to make sure each party is being treated well in a relationship. I think a lot of people involved with those with BPD fall asleep to their own relationship needs.

 

[ICUP]

Yup, those type of people will often blame themselves for problems and a person with BPD is prone to blaming others.

I also think people without much relationship experience who pride themselves on being loyal can be drawn in and caught. It's so important to make sure each party is being treated well in a relationship. I think a lot of people involved with those with BPD fall asleep to their own relationship needs.

A codependent's needs are compatible with a borederline's needs. This is why the borderline will not improve when they are living with a codependent.

------------------

Codependency:

Denial patterns:

I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well-being of others.
I lack empathy for the feelings and needs of others.
I label others with my negative traits.
I can take care of myself without any help from others.
I mask my pain in various ways such as anger, humor, or isolation.
I express negativity or aggression in indirect and passive ways.
I do not recognize the unavailability of those people to whom I am attracted.

Low self-esteem patterns:

I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
I constantly seek recognition that I think I deserve.
I am jealous of the relationships between others I would like to have as my own.
I have difficulty admitting that I made a mistake.
I need to appear to be right in the eyes of others and will even lie to look good.
I perceive myself as superior to others.
I look to others to provide my sense of safety.
I have difficulty getting started, meeting deadlines, and completing projects.
I have trouble setting healthy priorities.

Avoidance patterns:

I act in ways that invite others to reject, shame, or express anger toward me.
I judge harshly what others think, say, or do.
I avoid emotional, physical, or sexual intimacy as a means of maintaining distance.
I allow my addictions to people, places, and things to distract me from achieving intimacy in relationships.
I use indirect and evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation.
I diminish my capacity to have healthy relationships by declining to use all the tools of recovery.
I suppress my feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable.
I pull people toward me, but when they get close, I push them away.
I refuse to give up my self-will to avoid surrendering to a power that is greater than myself.
I believe displays of emotion are a sign of weakness.
I withhold expressions of appreciation.

Compliance patterns:

I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
I accept sex and/or sexual attention when I want love.
I am afraid to express my beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they differ from those of others.
I make decisions without regard to the consequences.
I give up my truth to gain the approval of others or to avoid change.

Control patterns:

I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.
I demand that my needs be met by others.
I use charm and charisma to convince others of my capacity to be caring and compassionate.
I use blame and shame to emotionally exploit others.
I refuse to cooperate, compromise, or negotiate.
I adopt an attitude of indifference, helplessness, authority, or rage to manipulate outcomes.
I have obsessive, compulsive thinking patterns and cannot focus on daily activities.
I use terms of recovery in an attempt to control the behavior of others.
I pretend to agree with others to get what I want.

 

[CzeCze]

*edit* im on my ipod and cant scroll or peruse the forum easily. The points I bring up might have already been addressed in thr thread so if so just another 2 cents thrown in*

Wow. "And he didnt fight for custody". Was he out to save himself? That sounds like a "Cybil" case where the kids fall through the cracks. Omg the psychological torture those kids must have grown up with...

I guess this is where the discussion comes in (if it didnt bappen already) about mental health and the lack of awareness and safety measures 20 years ago and still today.

My uncle's ex-wife has it... and I am 99% sure their oldest daughter has it too.

It's one of the scariest psychology disorders that I have studied and come in contact with personally.

On the surface she has always seemed very.... (fake) "nice" and "quiet" and ultra religious. My parents and I have always felt there was something off about her, but we never saw much of actual evidence to support these feelings. She made us feel crazy for thinking she was crazy because our intuition was going through the roof screaming "danger will robinson!! danger!!" and yet there wasn't much you could point to.

About five years ago, my uncle finally had enough and divorced her. What it took was her therapist calling him and telling him to leave the house because his wife had confessed that she was planning on killing him when she got home. He opened up to us about what had gone on during their 23 year marriage. Their first son was born still-born... and the likely cause was that she used to punch her stomach when she was angry with my uncle, and threaten to call the police and claim he beat her if he told anyone. They had another son a few years later, and a daughter a couple years after that. We had an ice storm in Minnesota one day when the son was 6 and she took both kids out on a drive... and wrapped their car around at telephone pole, instantly killing the son. Looking back, we are all pretty convinced that she was trying to kill all three of them. They had another daughter as a "replacement child" a few years after that. The last couple years of their marriage, they slept in separate rooms and my uncle would move a dresser in front of his door each night because he was so worried.

When they got divorced, he didn't fight for custody, so she got both daughters and home schooled them. The oldest is already starting to act like her mom with the fake outer shell, and the creepy vibe. The youngest is practically catatonic, and never smiles.

So what to do about it? Run away. Run far away. I have two friends who know someone with this and it has majorly messed up their own lives. (Real mother in one case, and husband's ex-wife in another.)

 

[violaine]

[MENTION=13653]ICUP[/MENTION] - True. So true.

On a side note, a person I know of peripherally, strongly asserts that codependency doesn't exist. I thought that was an odd position. Then I found out that she likely has BPD.

I wish more people were informed about such dynamics before they went out into the dating world. It's such an unhappy dance for those two parties.

 

[Anew Leaf]

*edit* im on my ipod and cant scroll or peruse the forum easily. The points I bring up might have already been addressed in thr thread so if so just another 2 cents thrown in*

Wow. "And he didnt fight for custody". Was he out to save himself? That sounds like a "Cybil" case where the kids fall through the cracks. Omg the psychological torture those kids must have grown up with...

I guess this is where the discussion comes in (if it didnt bappen already) about mental health and the lack of awareness and safety measures 20 years ago and still today.

He didn't fight because custody automatically goes to the mother in our state, unless you can prove drug use or danger to the children. He did some small research and discovered that it would cost him tens of thousands of dollars to just fight it in court. He was broke because she cashed out all of their savings while they were separated. The daughters were also already brainwashed at that point and she threatened my uncle that if he tried to take them from her, she would accuse him of sexually molesting them... and they would back her up. She is one fucked up mess. (And this all occured only a few years ago.. so maybe 2005,6?)

the youngest is about to turn 18 and she's going away for college. I am pretty sure she will have some sort of mental breakdown or craziness occur once she is free.

It's very scary to watch this go on and not be able to do anything about it. The woman wrote me this 10 page letter when my mom died last year... It started off "normal" saying she was sorry to hear my mom had died, but then went on a 9 page tirade about my uncle and how he had poisoned my mind with lies. 12 kinds o' cray cray that one.

The problem I have with the justice system is the fact that my uncle divorced her because (and her therapist testified) she was threatening to kill him in her therapy sessions. How was that not a red flag for the system that HMM maybe these kids should not automatically go to her? there is no common sense any more.

 

[FDG]

Sorry but how could your uncle have so many kids with this person?

 

[Anew Leaf]

Sorry but how could your uncle have so many kids with this person?

Because he's a pushover and ultra religious.

 

[CzeCze]

He didn't fight because custody automatically goes to the mother in our state, unless you can prove drug use or danger to the children. ...

The problem I have with the justice system is the fact that my uncle divorced her because (and her therapist testified) she was threatening to kill him in her therapy sessions. How was that not a red flag for the system that HMM maybe these kids should not automatically go to her? there is no common sense any more.

Fucking tragic on all sides. Failure of the state. It seems like in this case it would have been easy to at least insinuate that the ex-wife was a danger to her children. However, when one thing is weak something else needs to pick up the slack, the less the state does its job (or vice versa) the less/more an able bodied private citizen needs to do. That's why there's that line "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore". And why there are 'father rights' interest groups that deal specifically with custody and 'fit parenting' issues. I think in this situation your uncle had already helped write a sad tale and divorce and gaining legal sole custody would not stop the cycle of dysfunction unless something fundamentally changed about him and how he parents.

What is his relationship with his kids now? Or what is the rest of the family's relationship? Hopefully if the kids go to college they can start the road to therapy (it's generally free for college students on campus). Just from hearing your story, I wouldn't necessarily say the daughter may have her mother's disease. Disturbed parents treat their children very differently, sometimes based on gender and the daughter may just have mimicked her mom to survive. Considering she probably felt abandoned by adult figures and knows she's stuck in this situation, short of running away it probably seemed like her only recourse.

Because he's a pushover and ultra religious.

I don't want to seem like I'm raking your uncle over the coals since you opened up and shared this story with us. But wow.

I think for the OP and for everyone else a story like this is a very sobering reminder that 1) dysfunction depends on ENABLERS to survive and 2) an individuals dysfunction becomes a family's dysfunction and 3) when minors or other dependents are involved you have a greater responsibility for their safety and well being than your own. Because they cannot protect nor advocate for themselves. I think that's what I can't get over about your uncle's story, though I can intellectually understand how factors like the social climate and stigma around mental illness 20 years and a deeply religious upbringing etc played a part. It was still a failure on his part.

It's also interesting how dysfunctional people, even before they completely reveal their dysfunction so often pick enablers and vice versa. It's like they have antennae for each other.

To move it back to the OP if you think you are close to someone with borderline or any other mental illness and it has not been officially diagnosed, I would say early diagnosis and intervention is the key. Same with living with an alcoholic or drug user. It's so easy to ignore and live with obvious dysfunction and make excuses. In fact, that is usually what happens. It is very rare that someone with the resources (I guess that's debatable and also a loaded description) actually steps up, names the problem and addresses it, let alone does something about it or forces the authorities or others who are better equipped to do something about it. If it's just you that you have to look out for, you can just abandon ship. However, once family or a social network or a sense of obligation is involved it gets more involved.

 

[SilkRoad]

This is just a question about BPD, if anyone knows:

Is one of the signs/symptoms a major/heightened/abnormal sensitivity to sounds and touch? I know that this can go along with depression (in some cases anyway, and I think I read that it was particularly common in teenagers with depression) but am not sure about BPD.

My friend is always going on about how, when she's on the bus, people were "brushing up against her" and "chewing so loudly that I wanted to punch them" and things like this. (It tends to be along the lines of, it was ultra-annoying and she wanted to lash out at them. Don't think she ever actually has - it wouldn't be too safe in a city like this.)

I mean, it really really seems to bother her. I'm not ultra-sensitive to things like touch/sound/smell myself so probably I can't relate, but obviously I have many different friends with different levels of sensitivity, and the way she talks about this it just sounds really strange. There also tends to be an assumption or a perception that they are deliberately doing these things to annoy and drive her crazy. Which again could be more depression-related self-centeredness, I suppose.

Meh, the more I think about this, although she is doing better in recent months, unfortunately I still think she fits a lot of these criteria or is leaning in that direction. I'm thankful that I've put more space between us, and frankly it's still often overwhelming and stressful.

 

[ICUP]

Is one of the signs/symptoms a major/heightened/abnormal sensitivity to sounds and touch? I know that this can go along with depression (in some cases anyway, and I think I read that it was particularly common in teenagers with depression) but am not sure about BPD.

I haven't heard of it as being a direct sign of bpd, but it can be related, I'm sure. Many people with bpd also suffer with depression. (I did, although my depression was more zombie-like in nature).

"Lastly, please keep in mind that BPD is generally found to be co-morbid with at least one other disorder and that co-morbid disorder may also present symptoms which add to or exacerbate the presentation of the Borderline symptoms."

If you want a good place to read more on bpd and recovery, the best website I have found is: http://www.bpdrecovery.com/HomePage The owner of the site is very knowledgeable and has her head together, albeit a bit narcissistic.

Meh, the more I think about this, although she is doing better in recent months, unfortunately I still think she fits a lot of these criteria or is leaning in that direction. I'm thankful that I've put more space between us, and frankly it's still often overwhelming and stressful.

It can be for most people. Take care.

 

[Anew Leaf]

[MENTION=1009]CzeCze[/MENTION]. No problem at all!

Relationship with kids:
Oldest one: pretty bad. She blames him for the divorce and hates his new wife. He offers to help her with things, and she ignores him... Then complains he doesn't help her, lol. On the surface she has the same outward fake niceness to people in our family that her mother employed. But occasionally you see this super angry side emerge from deep down... It's creepy. She just got married the weekend before thanksgiving. Their wedding was originally in January, but it got moved up (gee, wonder why). She was furious at her dad telling people she was pregnant (duh) and denied it until after her wedding when suddenly she was "recently" pregnant. She is already wearing maternity clothing, and is trying to pretend the due date is mid June or later. We were given just under 3 weeks notice for her wedding and she got angry that our aunt was going to have problems attending since she had plans for that weekend already. Then our grandparents got an invitation with no address in it, and our ENTJ 91 year old surly grandfather said he wasn't going because of that. (he also just didn't want to go ). So in punishment she cut the rest of our family out of family photos. (not really punishment in my mind!). It's just stupid and melodramatic and something her mom would do. It's everyone's fault but hers.

Youngest daughter: they used to have a good relationship. But being left alone with her mom and being home schooled... Is having an affect on her. I think she's an INFP to begin with, and 17 and having a crazy mom.... It's not too surrpising that she is almost catatonic. I'm pretty sure her mom is using her as a pawn to try and guilt my uncle into extending alimony and child support past her senior year of highschool. It's just sad to watch. At family events, she sits off to the side, not smiling or talking. If you talk to her, she will say nothing and just sit there. I'm hoping once she goes away to college that she is able to break out of her shell a bit.

And no I don't think you are dragging him over the coals. It's nothing I haven't done myself. For me, the major red flag would have been "she punched her pregnant belly"... Time to book it out of here... Not wait 22 years and four kids later.

The scary part is that while my uncle changed the locks on his house (my dad insisted on that), his daughters have keys, and he never uses his security alarm in case they need to come over... So I have a bit of concern that his ex will come over some night when the alimony has run out, and do something to them. We've spoken to him about this and he thinks we're being silly. I say, better to put the alarm on and have it go off if your daughter came over... Then the alternative. Especially since they live in the boonies and their yards are so big, I don't think a neighbor would possibly hear anything.

BPD people are like wolves in sheepskin.

 

[Stanton Moore]

This is just a question about BPD, if anyone knows:

Is one of the signs/symptoms a major/heightened/abnormal sensitivity to sounds and touch? I know that this can go along with depression (in some cases anyway, and I think I read that it was particularly common in teenagers with depression) but am not sure about BPD.

Sound sensitivity is a sign of PTSD. it often accompanies BPD.

 

[CzeCze]

[MENTION=1009]And no I don't think you are dragging him over the coals. It's nothing I haven't done myself. For me, the major red flag would have been "she punched her pregnant belly"... Time to book it out of here... Not wait 22 years and four kids later.

Exactly! I was totally floored that your uncle would have another child with her after that, let alone 2. The dysfunctionals and the enablers always find one another. It's eerie.

I feel bad for all the children, you really can't blame them no matter how they turn out. With parents like that their doom was sealed from birth. I wonder if the older daughter has a strange heightened sensitivity to appearances partly due to knowing in a vague way how kookoo her family is.

The scary part is that while my uncle changed the locks on his house (my dad insisted on that), his daughters have keys, and he never uses his security alarm in case they need to come over... So I have a bit of concern that his ex will come over some night when the alimony has run out, and do something to them. We've spoken to him about this and he thinks we're being silly. I say, better to put the alarm on and have it go off if your daughter came over... Then the alternative. Especially since they live in the boonies and their yards are so big, I don't think a neighbor would possibly hear anything.

I think your uncle sounds like he is still in denial about things, including his own culpability. I'm surprised his daughters still come and see him. But even with dysfunction, neglect, and/or abuse the child's need to bond with their parent is incredibly strong, perhaps stronger because they need approval and/or a safe haven. Right now the whole family is still in denial.

I think your uncle's karma is going to include many years of extremely turbulent and distressing altercations with his children who vacillate between feeling affection for him and being unholy pissed at his crappy parenting. I can't say I blame them. They are either going to find ways to punish him for the rest of their lives and/or disengage. It sounds like his eldest daughter is already on that path and probably wants to punish the entire extended family to some extent for failing her. On some level, she feels resentment for the extended family members who were in a position to intervene and probably blames them unconsciously or consciously for the free floating rage she now has to carry around. So something like "I'm not coming to your wedding" on top of her childhood is a table flipping screaming banshee moment. I'm not surprised her wedding didn't go smoothly. That rage is a gift from her family. I kinda shudder thinking about the years in store for her.

You know, one of my friends bought another friend couples' therapy as a wedding present... I doubt that would go over well with your cousin but...seems apt here.

I have another friend who came from some extraordinary abuse and dysfunction in the home and though she loves her mother dearly now that she is married and has children of her own she realizes she needs to minimize contact with her mom. Having children of her own stirred up a lot of anger and probably rage at her mother for allowing so much abuse to happen to her and her siblings. So she keeps a safe distance now. There will probably be more conversations in the future. Actually confronting and addressing these things with the people involved and ideally coming to a point of acknowledgement/forgiveness is the only way to move past the dysfunction. I feel so bad for your cousins that they are stuck in the grips of it still. Without intervention it's going to be years before the younger one even realizes what's hit her and can put a name to things.

It's amazing how 1 person's problem essentially fireballs into generations worth of grief.

BPD people are like wolves in sheepskin.

Did the ex-wife ever say *why* she wanted to kill your uncle? I'm curious about her own family (parents, siblings) now.

I had no idea BPD was considered dangerous to others. I only thought people with BPD were dangers to themselves and caused a lot of emotional turmoil in their relationships.

 

[Rex]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40459

 

[Giggly]

I get this confused with bipolar disorder.

I think a lot of people are crazy in some way or another.

The ones that concern me the most are schizophrenics and psycho/sociopaths.

 

[Tiltyred]

Sound sensitivity is a sign of PTSD. it often accompanies BPD.

Yes. I have PTSD and sound sensitivity but not BPD.

 

[ICUP]

Yes. I have PTSD and sound sensitivity but not BPD.

How did you get PTSD? (Just curious, if you want to tell your story.)

 

[crack]

This seems to be the pattern in much/most of what I read online in people's experiences. They even described how the woman (usually) would be crazily sexual to begin with but then became "frigid" later.

The way I understand it to be is that BPD is just unthinkably extreme emotionalism. The accounts where sexuality and the sexualness of the PD'd are a focal point are of a different PD, called HPD.

The reason for the confusion is because HPD carries like 90% of BPD's symptoms, but the two disorders are concerned with distinctly different core issues (for example, to nutshell: BPD fears being alone period, HPD has low self-esteem at their core and is centered around acquiring acceptance from others infinitely to boost their self-esteem).

 

[ICUP]

The way I understand it to be is that BPD is just unthinkably extreme emotionalism. The accounts where sexuality and the sexualness of the PD'd are a focal point are of a different PD, called HPD.

The reason for the confusion is because HPD carries like 90% of BPD's symptoms, but the two disorders are concerned with distinctly different core issues (for example, to nutshell: BPD fears being alone period, HPD has low self-esteem at their core and is centered around acquiring acceptance from others infinitely to boost their self-esteem).

HPD seems to be much more outgoing than bpd. I'm thinking 2. Think Pam Anderson.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines histrionic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[5]

A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention
interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self
has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are.

It is a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.
[edit] ICD-10

BPD's I think can be highly sexual. They aren't necessarily theatrical and exaggerated, and many are introverts and cutters. Sexually promiscuous people do not have to be attention-seeking.

 

[crack]

HPD seems to be much more outgoing than bpd. I'm thinking 2.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines histrionic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[5]

A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention
interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self
has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are.

It is a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.
[edit] ICD-10

BPD's I think can be highly sexual. They aren't necessarily theatrical and exaggerated, and many are introverts and cutters. Sexually promiscuous people do not have to be attention-seeking.

I'm sorry, I don't think I was being clear. I wasn't saying pure BPD's can't be sexual (or highly sexual), but commenting that I think a vast, vast majority of those reports of BPD's being highly sexual are actually HPD cases.