Why are people so ashamed of themselves?

[Elfboy]

Shame is a useless waste of emotion. If actions were so negative, remorse, restitution and self-forgiveness are better uses of time and energy.

my thoughts exactly

 

[Stanton Moore]

Shame is a useless waste of emotion. If actions were so negative, remorse, restitution and self-forgiveness are better uses of time and energy.

So shame is a choice? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Elfboy]

So shame is a choice? Is that what you're saying?

yes. it's not a direct choice (ie you can't just say "I'm not supposed to feel ashamed, so I'm going to stop") but shame is something that can be eliminated. shame is called by a lack of self acceptance. "the past is in the past, all I can do is learn from it and move on. I don't have to keep beating myself up over it. I love myself"

 

[Elfboy]

I've heard of people that never experience shame. I think they're called sociopaths.

are you advocating that people go around feeling like this every time they make a mistake?

 

[iwakar]

are you advocating that people go around feeling like this every time they make a mistake?
[irrelevant video]

I'm advocating nothing. I'm stating that people that never experience shame are either 1) lying, or 2) sociopaths.

 

[rav3n]

So shame is a choice? Is that what you're saying?

Most often, yes. People choose their actions where emotions aren't an excuse. If your values deem an act as being shameful, why would you do it in the first place?

Also, if you've done something that inadvertently hurt someone, if it bothers you enough, provide restitution and forgive yourself, whether the other party is willing or not to accept restitution. But if you were born a particular way [insert something not by choice such as race, shortness, gender, something you or others don't perceive as being positive], there's absolutely no reason to be ashamed.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

I don't get it, why do people feel ashamed of themselves, hate themselves or feel like they somehow need to do something to validate their existence? what is the psychological root of shame and feelings of worthlessness? they don't make any sense to me.

It's really based on upbringing by parents and all the external factors of the level of hardships in life.


I know this Thai girl and she got raped by her brother while they study abroad in Canada. She kept this to herself for many years and I was stunned once she confined this to me, and a few close-friends. We all urged her to either report to police or confess this to her parents, which she chose the latter.

She ended up getting having her mother screamed at her for fabricating stories for attention and her being a punching bag by her father's fist-punch. She eventually ended up being a lesbian and cutting all of her ties out from her life.

At this point I thought and hoped she would live a happier life, even though she started out badly with all these traumas. Unfortunately, just a few years ago, I've heard from other friends that she eventually became a very pesivemistic person who loathe her life a great deal to a point where her lesbian lovers all dumped her. Finally she ended her life by becoming excessive drug users and got OD.

Now I know there are many people who might had similar experience or even harsher experience than her who managed to survive.

But would you blame her taking her life for granted by wasting it? I don't think I would.

 

[Stanton Moore]

yes. it's not a direct choice (ie you can't just say "I'm not supposed to feel ashamed, so I'm going to stop") but shame is something that can be eliminated. shame is called by a lack of self acceptance. "the past is in the past, all I can do is learn from it and move on. I don't have to keep beating myself up over it. I love myself"

So one should just pull themselves up by the boot straps and move on?
I have no idea what an 'indirect' choice would be.
In my experience it doesn't work like that. If it were so simple, there would be no depression, eating disorders, addiction, etc. What you have done is reformulate that old saw that blames the victim.

 

[Elfboy]

So one should just pull themselves up by the boot straps and move on?
I have no idea what an 'indirect' choice would be.
In my experience it doesn't work like that. If it were so simple, there would be no depression, eating disorders, addiction, etc. What you have done is reformulate that old saw that blames the victim.

it isn't simple, but it can be done. shame is caused by one's belief system, how one perceives one's self, how one value's one's self. I believe that I am inherently valuable as a human being and as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights, even if I mess up, I have nothing to be ashamed of. if you internalize similar beliefs to this, try to live by what you think is right, forgive yourself for making mistakes and truly accept yourself, shame will disappear over time. this doesn't happen over night, it's something one needs to introspect on and slowly internalize.

 

[redacted]

it isn't simple, but it can be done. shame is caused by one's belief system, how one perceives one's self, how one value's one's self. I believe that I am inherently valuable as a human being and as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights, even if I mess up, I have nothing to be ashamed of. if you internalize similar beliefs to this, try to live by what you think is right, forgive yourself for making mistakes and truly accept yourself, shame will disappear over time. this doesn't happen over night, it's something one needs to introspect on and slowly internalize.

This is only possible if you believe that emotional states are functions of a conscious belief system. From what I've observed, it seems more accurate to say a person's conscious belief system is largely a function of their emotional states.

As I kinda said earlier in the thread, those who are open to feeling shame are more susceptible to cognitive dissonance, which increases their rate of change of beliefs. This is a good trait for humans to have, at least from the perspective of group dynamics, because it allows people to learn from each other and act as a larger unit with similar goals.

 

[Elfboy]

This is only possible if you believe that emotional states are functions of a conscious belief system. From what I've observed, it seems more accurate to say a person's conscious belief system is largely a function of their emotional states.

As I kinda said earlier in the thread, those who are open to feeling shame are more susceptible to cognitive dissonance, which increases their rate of change of beliefs. This is a good trait for humans to have, at least from the perspective of group dynamics, because it allows people to learn from each other and act as a larger unit with similar goals.

clearly this is at least somewhat related to Fe/Fi

 

[redacted]

clearly this is at least somewhat related to Fe/Fi

howso?

 

[Elfboy]

howso?

my emotions are derived from
- the way I view myself
- my beliefs
- how close I am in accordance with those believes
- how comfortable I am
- how mentally stimulated I am

...that's about it

 

[Stanton Moore]

'F' does not equal emotion. It's a 'cognitive process', if you believe Jung/typology.

 

[Elfboy]

'F' does not equal emotion. It's a 'cognitive process', if you believe Jung/typology.

I don't remember saying it did. I am an ENFP after all, and I'm not very emotional

 

[Santosha]

i can see how shame and guilt could potentially be a fe/fi cognition

shame is a violation of cultural or social values (more external)
guilt feelings arise when one violates their internal values

atleast this is according to Ruth Benedict (cultural anthropologist)

Some might feel like shame shouldn't exist, but it doesn't really matter because it does exist, frequently within the human condition. It's really no different than saying sadness, anxiety, irritability, guilt or any other more negative emotion shouldn't exist. In which case, we might want to look at how some of these more negative feelings can bring forth positive creation, growth, or if they have their very own inherent value.

Anyhow, I think that what you are getting at Elfboy, is that people should understand that they can avoid darker feelings by changing their perception and judgement of external standards and where they fall into that. I have thought alot about this too, and found it helpful for me many times.. but the fact remains that we are very connected species and some external standards are bound to weigh on our conscience.

Do you think someone that molests children, and finds that act perfectly in alignment with internal values, should be ashamed? I realize this is an extreme example, but I am curious.

 

[redacted]

my emotions are derived from
- the way I view myself
- my beliefs
- how close I am in accordance with those believes
- how comfortable I am
- how mentally stimulated I am

...that's about it

I'm not sure I'm following. I can't really find any logical content in your post that contradicts my statement besides "my emotions are derived from ... my beliefs", which isn't reasoning against beliefs being dependent on emotions, it's just the opposite statement.

I don't really understand the point you're making about Fe vs. Fi either -- are you saying your emotions are representative of Fi emotions and Fe emotions would be dependent on different factors? If so, which factors are you referring to?

Also, aren't a lot of the factors you listed (how comfortable, how stimulated, etc.) functions of the environment?

 

[Elfboy]

I'm not sure I'm following. I can't really find any logical content in your post that contradicts my statement besides "my emotions are derived from ... my beliefs", which isn't reasoning against beliefs being dependent on emotions, it's just the opposite statement.

I don't really understand the point you're making about Fe vs. Fi either -- are you saying your emotions are representative of Fi emotions and Fe emotions would be dependent on different factors? If so, which factors are you referring to?

Also, aren't a lot of the factors you listed (how comfortable, how stimulated, etc.) functions of the environment?

- some of them are, some of them are completely internal.
- I don't deny that emotions and linked with beliefs, I just think that the cause and effect are switched for Fe and Fi
Fe: emotions (usually) effect beliefs
Fi: beliefs (usually) effect emotions

 

[redacted]

- some of them are, some of them are completely internal.
- I don't deny that emotions and linked with beliefs, I just think that the cause and effect are switched for Fe and Fi
Fe: emotions (usually) effect beliefs
Fi: beliefs (usually) effect emotions

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. While it's true that Fi users seem to be more in touch with their emotions, the direction of causality could still be explained in terms of emotions causing beliefs. Most of the stuff going on in the brain is far below the level of consciousness -- we tell ourselves that our conscious mind controls what's happening under the surface but numerous studies suggest otherwise. I see consciousness as a frantic narrative-creating machine, constantly reducing the multidimensional phenomena it's exposed to into neat little one or two dimensional frameworks. Conscious beliefs seem very high up in the hierarchy of brain function.

 

[Elfboy]

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. While it's true that Fi users seem to be more in touch with their emotions, the direction of causality could still be explained in terms of emotions causing beliefs. Most of the stuff going on in the brain is far below the level of consciousness -- we tell ourselves that our conscious mind controls what's happening under the surface but numerous studies suggest otherwise. I see consciousness as a frantic narrative-creating machine, constantly reducing the multidimensional phenomena it's exposed to into neat little one or two dimensional frameworks. Conscious beliefs seem very high up in the hierarchy of brain function.

according to Jung, Fi is the function with the closest connection to the subconscious