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what is the psychology of conservatives and liberals?

S

Sniffles

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There's reform to accomplish liberal goals and there's also reform to accomplish conservative goals; the act of reform itself is neutral.

And what exactly are liberal goals, if I may ask?
 

Hazashin

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And what exactly are liberal goals, if I may ask?

They vaguely seek to create a greater degree of egalitarianism, while also maintaining personal liberty.
 

Jonny

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Ah, so you're a believer in absolute determinism. Alright, so if a person is biologically predetermined to a set of features and qualities that are likely to result in his success, why is it fair to reward them to the detriment of someone who committed no crime but to lose the genetic lottery?

For the record, the verdict is still out on the determinism vs. free will debate, with various fields of science coming to different conclusions, so it wouldn't make sense to structure a society on an unverifiable idea but rather the pragmatic approach would be to perfect the systems that we already use.

One needn't rely on science to come to the conclusion that free will is ultimately impossible. I do not necessarily believe that everything is predetermined, but I do believe that humans are not really in control of their own actions; whether it is a result of the structure of our brains, or some metaphysical concept about which I am currently unfamiliar, there must be something that governs our actions. You must realize that thoughts and desires come to you by no fault of your own, no? The only thing I do know is that people are substantively different than one another, and I cannot fairly judge another because I have not walked in his shoes.

I am not calling for a rejection of any particular system, but simply referencing the fact that judging a system based upon its unfairness is probably not the best way to go about it, since every system is inherently unfair.
 

Hazashin

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One needn't rely on science to come to the conclusion that free will is ultimately impossible. I do not necessarily believe that everything is predetermined, but I do believe that humans are not really in control of their own actions; whether it is a result of the structure of our brains, or some metaphysical concept about which I am currently unfamiliar, there must be something that governs our actions. You must realize that thoughts and desires come to you by no fault of your own, no? The only thing I do know is that people are substantively different than one another, and I cannot fairly judge another because I have not walked in his shoes.

I am not calling for a rejection of any particular system, but simply referencing the fact that judging a system based upon its unfairness is probably not the best way to go about it, since every system is inherently unfair.

You NTs are tricky, man. The whole crux of the argument -- the existence of choice -- is a point of departure, but your worldview is internally consistent, and so is mine, so an agreement is unlikely.
 

jcloudz

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One needn't rely on science to come to the conclusion that free will is ultimately impossible. I do not necessarily believe that everything is predetermined, but I do believe that humans are not really in control of their own actions; whether it is a result of the structure of our brains, or some metaphysical concept about which I am currently unfamiliar, there must be something that governs our actions. You must realize that thoughts and desires come to you by no fault of your own, no? The only thing I do know is that people are substantively different than one another, and I cannot fairly judge another because I have not walked in his shoes.

I am not calling for a rejection of any particular system, but simply referencing the fact that judging a system based upon its unfairness is probably not the best way to go about it, since every system is inherently unfair.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys"].[/YOUTUBE]

sounds like this.

that is a depressing way of seeing things
 

Not_Me

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I think it is over simplistic to imply that liberals are more altruistic than conservatives. If you think about it, the rich stands to gain more by promoting selfish policies. Similarly, the poor stands to be the net beneficiary if society adopted more altruistic social policies. In that respect, I don't think liberals are necessarily any less selfish than conservatives.

My issue with American politics is that the wealthy are very adept at convincing the unwashed masses that selfish, "every man for himself" social policies are for the benefits of the country and not just for the chosen few.

I have equal disdain for the far left. But fortunately, they are pretty good at neutering themselves with unrealistic values which hinder their ability to acquire sufficient resources to be anything more than a nuisance.
 

entropie

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In Germany we have liberals, conservatives and socialists and while the first ones dropped beyond 5 % votes, the latter ones form the two biggest parties. How about the psychological mindset of people if you increase the spectrum ? Aint mindsets not bond after all to the very deterministic availiability of options ?
 

FDG

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In Germany we have liberals, conservatives and socialists and while the first ones dropped beyond 5 % votes, the latter ones form the two biggest parties. How about the psychological mindset of people if you increase the spectrum ? Aint mindsets not bond after all to the very deterministic availiability of options ?

I thought that there was no life beyond the USA!
 

entropie

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I thought that there was no life beyond the USA!

Yea ! The american people are most definitly the center of the universe. I once knew an exchange student who told me that his foster parent asked him if people in Europe already were so technologically advanced and have fridges. Of course said the exchange student, totally baffled by the question. Then the foster parent asked if we'ld still live on trees and the student had enough and said, yea we live in trees. That led to the foster parent asking: how then do you get the fridges on the trees ? :D
 

Speed Gavroche

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if you recall, Fascists were for societal reformation, and no one would call them liberal.

Fascists are not conservatives.

They vaguely seek to create a greater degree of egalitarianism, while also maintaining personal liberty.


Contradiction. If you force people to be equal, you supress their personal liberty. And economic liberties are indiviual liberties, if you want to promote individual liberties, you must promote the economics ones.

For the "IQ" thing, i will say the same thing I said on the thread:

Well, I think the point is that an high IQ make you more prone to questions traditionals view of life, and also more to think about society in a "progressive" way, and to be more innovative to challenge weakness of societies and to encourage reform built with reflection. At the same time, I observed that liberals are not the only group who have higher IQ than the average, it is even higher in libertarian circles where the average IQ is around 135. Globally, it seem that people with high IQ are mostly liberals and that conservatives and libertarians are minority. That does'nt mean that liberal are smarter, the meaning is: an high IQ make you easily prone to ask question, but less easily to answer with accuracy. That's all.


Low/average IQ: conservative.

Average/higer IQ than the average: liberal, because you quetion traditions and etablished structure, are more prone to reform, but fail at understanding the world in all its complexity.

Even higher IQ: libertarian, or cultured, intelectual conservative, because you can ask questions and answer to this with accuracy. There's also the case of the hardcore marxist, or the classic ultraconstructivist socialist who believes he can reorganise the world entirely to make it just and perfect because of his intlectual abilities.
 

entropie

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Ãœber-human: socialist

no wait that was a different ideology :D
 

Hazashin

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Fascists are not conservatives.

How are they not? They are radical, revolutionary conservatives.

Contradiction. If you force people to be equal, you supress their personal liberty. And economic liberties are indiviual liberties, if you want to promote individual liberties, you must promote the economics ones.

No, capitalism denies economic liberty to the largest segment of the population. If someone is starving or impoverished, they are a slave to their poverty.
 

Elfboy

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How are they not? They are radical, revolutionary conservatives.
there are several liberal fascists factions. Che Guevara being a perfect example


No, capitalism denies economic liberty to the largest segment of the population. If someone is starving or impoverished, they are a slave to their poverty.

no it doesn't. they have the opportunity in a capitalist society to move from any social class to another. liberty =/= entitlement to a good lifestyle
 

Hazashin

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there are several liberal fascists factions. Che Guevara being a perfect example

Communism =/= Fascism

no it doesn't. they have the opportunity in a capitalist society to move from any social class to another. liberty =/= entitlement to a good lifestyle

As Marm and others have said, the myth of upward mobility is untrue, especially in American society. It happens, but not very often.
 

Elfboy

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Communism =/= Fascism
yes it does. a communist society has a dictator who controls and distributes resources.

As Marm and others have said, the myth of upward mobility is untrue, especially in American society. It happens, but not very often.
it doesn't happen very often because most people are not ambitious. most people just want to fit in, be accepted and follow a path already beaten out for them.
 

Speed Gavroche

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How are they not? They are radical, revolutionary conservatives.

"revolutionary" and "conservative". Contradiction. Fascists are actually very progessive and want to reform society deeply, it's even more true for Nazis. And the both movements are of a socialist origin.



No, capitalism denies economic liberty to the largest segment of the population. If someone is starving or impoverished, they are a slave to their poverty.

If they are starving of impoverished, trhey are responsible of themselves. Not slaves. Poverty is not more enslavement than illness or old age. You are not a slave as long as you are free to try anything you want to solve your problem, no matter if your trials are successful of you actually have opportunities. The fact, though, is that laissez-faire capitalism multiply the opportunities to improve your wealth.
 

entropie

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"revolutionary" and "conservative". Contradiction. Fascists are actually very progessive and want to reform society deeply, it's even more true for Nazis. And the both movements are of a socialist origin.

Hahahahahaha, he said "progressive" AND "reform" omg hahahahahaha. That made my day :D

Btw, the unequal sign has the shortcut !=
 
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