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  1. #51
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Sep 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It seems to be more of a T/F issue, and not really what everyone on one side or another prefers, but simply how the arguments are framed.

    Conservatives seem to focus more on T concerns like finance and efficiency, while liberals seem to focus more on F concerns like compassion. It doesn't mean either side has a monopoly on those thigns, but again, it is how the rhetoric is framed.

    I came to see this when debating with conservatives online, and the frequently claim to go by "the facts", while liberals only go by emotional appeals. Now, I myself am frustrated, because I look at things through a T perspective, but still see the conservatives as wrong on many issues, or at least in the rhetoric, though perhaps making some good points. So I look to liberals, or at least a more neutral party somewhere to make an equally logical counter-argument, but that is extremely far between. The conservatives then capitalize on this, saying "see, they can't, because they simply don't have the 'truth' on their side like we do!"
    I then am almost embarrassed, because I too see the F approach as weak and ineffective compared to tough logic. So ever more frustrated, I feel almost alone in really tackling the issue.

    So the conservatives will say "we have to cut spending; there's no money', and the liberals do not address this, but instead insist "we have to help people out; we can't cut aid". Clearly, a T vs F perspective.

    The flipside of this is when the liberals' less mature T comes out in the form of using government to impose their "humanitarian" causes, and the conservatives' less mature F in the often inflammatory passion behind their vocal stances.

    So I remain torn, because my T can agree that runaway spending cannot be good, and then my inferior F sees that if so many people are against spending, then we should not force it. However my T also sees that if the rich are getting richer, then the blaming of the poor that often goes on in conservative rhetoric is totally off base (and likely a diversionary tactic of those with the economic power). Sso that's why I'm not conservative.

    I've always resented these T/F distinctions because at the very heart of any quality analysis is a clear understanding of the desires of the involved parties. It would be abhorrently foolish to press forward in the name of efficiency without a clear understanding of what the absolute goals of the actions were, and it would be equally foolish to attempt to achieve a particular set of desires without spending time logically analyzing the situation. Your post is a grotesque oversimplification. Cutting spending, increasing taxes, providing welfare, balancing the budget, et cetera, are all good only insofar as they facilitate a state which most closely resembles the ideal (which itself must be derived from an analysis of the aggregate desires of the populace). Furthermore, given the dynamic nature of our society, each is perhaps an ideal at one time or another, but none should be blindly touted as an absolutely superior method.

  2. #52
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    Apr 2009


    The Cato Institute shows that only 25 percent of Conservatives hold a college degree, while 48 percent of Liberals do. 30 percent of Libertarians have college degrees.

    The Gallup Poll showed in 2010 that it is actually 49% of self-identified Liberals who have a college degree, while only 28% of Social Conservatives do.
    Stick this in your pipe and smoke it.

    From Wikipedia: Republican Party (United States)

    Education: Self-identified Republicans are significantly more likely than Democrats to have 4-year college degrees. The trends for the years 1955 through 2004 are shown by gender in the graphs below, reproduced from a book published by Joseph Fried.[77] These graphs depict results obtained by Fried from the National Election Studies (NES) database.

    Regarding graduate-level degrees (masters or doctorate), there is a rough parity between Democrats and Republicans. According to the Gallup Organization: "[B]oth Democrats and Republicans have equal numbers of Americans at the upper end of the educational spectrum — that is, with post graduate degrees..."[78] Fried provides a slightly more detailed analysis, noting that Republican men are more likely than Democratic men to have advanced degrees, but Democratic women are now more likely than Republican women to have advanced degrees.[79]

    Republicans remain a small minority of college professors, with 11% of full-time faculty identifying as Republican.[80]
    From wikipedia: Democratic Party (United States)

    Although Democrats are well-represented at the postgraduate level, self-identified Republicans are more likely to have attained a 4-year college degree. The trends for the years 1955 through 2004 are shown by gender in the graphs above, reproduced with permission from Democrats and Republicans — Rhetoric and Reality, a book published in 2008 by Joseph Fried. These results are based on surveys conducted by the National Election Studies, supported by the National Science Foundation.[33]
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    - Edmund Burke

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  3. #53
    Join Date
    May 2009
    6w7 sx
    SEE Fi


    I believe that we are comparing two different things. I am showing statistics from self-identified Liberals (all of which are not registered as Democrats); Conservatives (etc.), and Libertarians. I'm sure that many Republican business people are college educated; typically one does not become a CEO or a stock broker or lawyer without degrees.

    On the other hand, Time magazine also showed in 2010 that liberalism, atheism, and male sexual exclusivity is linked to higher IQ in adults.


  4. #54
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Aug 2007


    If more smart people self identify as liberal because conservatives are perceived as dumb redencks that doesn't make conservatives smarter, it makes them progressively comparatively dumber as a group, which might lead to a dangerous vicious cycle. They might be interested in changing such perception, if research indeed shows that it is present.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #55
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Sep 2009


    Here is a chart I just made using data from the General Social Survey. The sample size was 40,000.


  6. #56
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
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    OMG. It's leftovers for dinner again
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #57
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Sep 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    OMG. It's leftovers for dinner again
    Haha! Were you commenting on re-using the same statistics from another thread or something?
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux


  8. #58
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Anyone seen this rather excellent TED talk? It addresses the issues you guys have raised:
    [YOUTUBE=""]Jonathan Haidt: The real difference between liberals and conservatives[/YOUTUBE]
    I've seen this talk, and I think my biggest beef with it is that I want to know how they define fairness and justice. It sounds to me like it's blatantly obvious that both liberals and conservatives like that, because the terms seem to be code for "whatever I think is good". It's possible that every liberal and conservative who emphasized those values meant something so different that it's virtually useless.

    I suppose the other question I have is how the punishment thing conflicts with the harm thing, since he claims that conservatives put more emphasis on punishment but do not really put less on the no-harm principle. How did this happen?
    Go to sleep, iguana.

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  9. #59
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    6w7 sx/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How surprising, yet another thread where posters are supposed to discuss both conservative liberal values has devolved into unrepentant conservative bashing.

    This site has become an ever more insulated echo chamber for liberal group think.

    It's no wonder I've continued to find less and less reason to post here as time goes by.
    So you're saying that don't want to post here simply because they are criticizing beliefs you hold? Don't you think that's a little extreme to disregard the site in its entirety because you feel your beliefs are being unjustly criticized?
    Enneagram: 6w7, phobic
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    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

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  10. #60


    I said it once, I'll say it again: gotta love manichean-style politics.

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