Is Teen Rebellion being re-labled as Mental Illness?

[The Ü™]

What is it that has caused a rise in divorce over the years?

 

[Nocapszy]

I searched PubMed to get some info about drug therapy and ADHD. There is evidence out there that some drug therapy is beneficial and not all of it is overprescribing, but you can look for yourself. I'm not extolling drug therapy either, I just won't make a blanket statement claiming that drug therapy doesn't work just because it didn't work for some people I know.



Nocapszy, please tell me you aren't comparing sudoku to a mental disorder.

No, I'm comparing sudoku to the DSM.

Please suggest alternatives.

I did -- stop drawing a circle of "normal" orderly behavior and attacking everyone who doesn't fit the rubric so they'll try to fit it. Don't even pretend that's not the goal of the DSM. It's to make non-normal become normal.

My basic point is their are behaviors that are destructive and maladaptive.

And my point was that it's entirely up to opinion. Right now, the commanding opinion happens to be that there's such a thing, so this is what we're left with.

I know the DSM isn't a perfect book but not everything in it is crap pulled out of the center of a doctor's ass. What are standardized alternatives for medical professionals to use in order to help their patients and receive treatment? How will treatment even begin?

DON'T TREAT THEM. There's nothing wrong with them just because they're disruptive. This country especially has gotten to be way too narrowminded. Sorry to say this, but we're too goddamn J now. A little J with a little P might be good. The scale is way the fuck on the other side. I'm willing to compromise. If classrooms would stop following such strict curriculum -- the no child left behind act is possibly the most detrimental act established in this area --

You go to the doctor because you're coughing, your throat is sore, and you're congested. These symptoms are indicative of something.

Exactly. It's a disease. We can't change the germs. The "germ" here is inattentiveness. But really, it's not inattentiveness, it's just distraction. Kids can pay attention, just not to what they're told to. How is that sickness? It's just difference of interest. The "germ" is dependent upon another factor. We can change our idea of what has to be done, and the germ goes away.

If a kid is engaging in criminal behavior, endangering their lives and the lives of the people around them are you suggesting this is typical?

Wanting to be, or encouraging people to be typical is an extremely psychologically damaging tactic. Sure, it herds us, and we're easily to deal with. This way it's like dealing with play-doh instead of sand. But if we would just let the sand and play-doh alone, there'd be no problem.

Do you have issues with other texts medical professionals use to diagnose and treatment diseases and illness or is your wrath specifically aimed at the DSM? I acknowledge that diagnosing illness of the mind is hard and there's much room for error.

There's such a huge difference between psychology and biology. Physical destruction is absolute. Psychological destruction is a. impossible to detect, and b. subjective in the first place.

Leave people's psyche alone. Analyze -- don't alter.

People complain day in and day out -- usually the same people who share your ideas of ADHD, about the damage caused by the media's portrayal of the ideal woman.

What about the portrayal of the ideal student? That's not as much in the media, but it's out there, fucking kids up left and right.

Agreed, psychotherapy before medicating.

No therapy. No medication. Leave them alone. There's nothing wrong with me, and there's nothing wrong with them.

Actually, the "germ" is anyone who's trying to take over me (or other ADD/ODD kids) since that's what a germ does -- commandeers cells. Instead schools and pharm are taking over minds. My immune system is what's recognized as the disorder -- protecting my ability to decide for myself what I do and how I do it.

That's why the DSM is so twisted.

And from your personal experiences maybe psychotherapy would've been the best route for you or alternative health techniques to help.

I wish they would have left me the fuck alone. I was practically a goddamn case study at my school. I'm not sick. I'm just stubborn.

Frankly some doctors don't know about all that's out there to help their patients. Unfortunately some of them are using the dated information they learned in medical school so perhaps their ignorance is hindering healthy minds. But don't demonize all medication because they do help some people.

I will, because it IS evil. It's all been churned with misleading rhetoric to be sweeter for buttering up the parents.

If they don't help most people then I can see case being made against it but that's not the case.

They don't help the kids who take them. That's for sure. I've studied it. But again, because I didn't wear a lab-coat, I can't be taken seriously

Medication helps some patients get their symptoms under control enough for them to begin taking the steps necessary for a mental peace

Gross... why do they get to decide what mental peace is?

so there will be time when they don't need it.

These drugs don't work that way. They work the opposite way. They don't work as a guide. They actually alter the chemicals in the brain. I'm afraid you misunderstand here.

It's impossible to analogize the mind, created by the millions of chemical interactions to something as simple as a traveller finding his way in the woods. These drugs will not be the lantern to guide their way to safer, greener pasture.

 

[Ivy]

What is it that has caused a rise in divorce over the years?

The divorce rate peaked in the early 80s and has gone down steadily since. The 50% figure is misleading since it compares the number of marriages per 1000 people to the number of divorces per 1000 people in any given year. It's not the same people marrying and divorcing. The actual divorce rate peaked at about 40%.

 

[heart]

Really?! I often hear people talking about how these problems affect children of divorced parents. I just had a conversation about it with my hairstylist. I don't think this is un-PC at all.

Perhaps your hairstylist has good critical thinking skills. I am not just talking about homes where divorce has affected the children. I am also talking about people who continue to have children when their physical/mental health or marriage is not strong or they are too career driven to give enough attention to children, etc.

These subjects are taboo for many people and engender strong negative emotional reactions and denial. We would rather criticize the children when they have behavior problems.

I agree 100 percent with Maverick when he says these children are the symptoms of a larger problem with cultural systems.

 

[proteanmix]

Post

Hmm, well we have wildly divergent ways of looking at this. I think there is a such thing maladaptive behaviors and you don't, is that correct? I'm not denying that these behaviors exist ust that their harm outweighs their benefit. I'd think most people want to abandon behavior that is harmful to them or people they care about. You're saying if they shouldn't be stigmatized and remain unlabeled. If enough people exhibit certain behaviors then it's no longer a fringe behavior. People should be unpruned with minimal upkeep. I like untouched tropical rainforests but I also like manicured and cultivated gardens. I think there's beauty in both. I also like zoos where I can look at the nice forest creatures without fear of them ripping out my jugular.

What about that kudzu weed is now classified as an invasive species? At the right temperatures and in the right amount it's very helpful. But when it's allowed to grow unchecked it becomes an invasive species, choking the life out of other plants.

ETA:

Perhaps your hairstylist has good critical thinking skills. I am not just talking about homes where divorce has affected the children. I am also talking about people who continue to have children when their physical/mental health or marriage is not strong or they are too career driven to give enough attention to children, etc.

These subjects are taboo for many people and engender strong negative emotional reactions and denial. We would rather criticize the children when they have behavior problems.

I agree 100 percent with Maverick when he says these children are the symptoms of a larger problem with cultural systems.

Perhaps. I hear topics like this on talk radio and as lunchtime conversation. Maybe I'm with people who talk about this stuff or I engage people enough to have conversations like this with them.

 

[heart]

I think that the abolition of the paddle or the ruler could have something to do with teen rebellion, as well, seeing how there are many people who can't tell the difference between spanking children and beating the living crap out of them. Spare the rods, spoil the child.

Suspending kids from school, which is a common practice these days, is probably the worst thing to do, since it's basically a vacation for the student -- some may think that this is the exact reason kids cause trouble, because of the vacation time they would get. And this notion intensifies when parents aren't home to discipline their children.

I think that if a child is to be suspended from school, their suspension should take place in a detention on the school grounds until their suspension period is up.

(This is, of course, if teenage rebellion is indeed a problem.)

I don't think spanking is as important as consistancy in approach. I know a child who is diagnosed ODD and there is no consistancy in the way his parents deal with him but they often spank him. It doesn't do anything in the way of disciplining him because he has no consistant guidelines to go by. He is a highly intelligent and curious child and his parents are distracted by their own issues and just don't have time for him. They try to supress him as much as they can because they cannot handle his needs for positive stimulation. He reacts.

 

[Ivy]

Perhaps your hairstylist has good critical thinking skills. I am not just talking about homes where divorce has affected the children. I am also talking about people who continue to have children when their physical/mental health or marriage is not strong or they are too career driven to give enough attention to children, etc. These subjects are taboo for many people and engender strong emotional reactions. We would rather criticize the children when they have behavior problems.

I agree 100 percent with Maverick when he says these children are the symptoms of a larger problem with cultural systems.

I agree, too.

Part of the problem, I think, happens when some people think a mother with any job at all is "too career driven to give enough attention to a child." That makes me hesitant to attach that label when it has been attached to me for having a part-time job that I can do at home when they're asleep.

At the same time, I don't think anyone would disagree about the extreme cases of parents who farm out 100% (or close to it) of the work of raising their children to others. And those kids often do act out, in different ways depending on their specific personalities.

This is still tangentially related to the OP so I'm not splitting it out yet.

 

[heart]

I agree, too.

Part of the problem, I think, happens when some people think a mother with any job at all is "too career driven to give enough attention to a child." That makes me hesitant to attach that label when it has been attached to me for having a part-time job that I can do at home when they're asleep.

.

It can happen to fathers too. It is not the work itself, but does the preoccupation with the work drain the person so that they are emotionally unavailable at home?

A stay at home mother might be preoccupied with something other than a job. It is not as simple as working, not working. It is more a subject of mindset and priorities.

 

[Ivy]

I don't think spanking is as important as consistancy in approach. I know a child who is diagnosed ODD and there is no consistancy in the way his parents deal with him but they often spank him. It doesn't do anything in the way of disciplining him because he has no consistant guidelines to go by. He is a highly intelligent and curious child and his parents are distracted by their own issues and just don't have time for him. They try to supress him as much as they can because they cannot handle his needs for positive stimulation. He reacts.

And I agree with this 100%. I've known families like this as well where no effort is put into figuring out why a child does what he does, just a lot of leg-smacking when they do the wrong thing. I'm not entirely against spanking but it has to be a part of a reasonable and consistent parenting approach to do any good.

And IMO it has NO place whatsoever in schools.

 

[Nocapszy]

Hmm, well we have wildly divergent ways of looking at this. I think there is a such thing maladaptive behaviors and you don't, is that correct? I'm not denying that these behaviors exist ust that their harm outweighs their benefit.

Only because the reception is negative. If we'd try and not be so closed off about it, then we might be a bit more inviting of it. People are too goddamn sensitive to disruption. Instead of putting such a negative word on it, we could try calling it, unplanned exploration.

I'd think most people want to abandon behavior that is harmful to them or people they care about. You're saying if they shouldn't be stigmatized and remain unlabeled.

Can you give me a good reason they should be labelled? What's harmful? Hmmm? I don't think you've really thought this out. What's harmful about ADD and ODD?

If enough people exhibit certain behaviors then it's no longer a fringe behavior.

Oh please... Everyone on the planet exhibits ADD like behavior. Some of us more than others, but everyone does.

People should be unpruned with minimal upkeep. I like untouched tropical rainforests but I also like manicured and cultivated gardens. I think there's beauty in both. I also like zoos where I can look at the nice forest creatures without fear of them ripping out my jugular.

This is the problem. Fear.

There's no sense of adventure in america. It's why people own TVs, and praise the police and military. They want to watch OTHER PEOPLE be brave. No one wants to get their own hands dirty. It's a bunch of wussiness. So we have those police, who have arbitrary rules that keep the public safe from the "baddies" of course their classification is based on entirely on how it affects them. It's nothing but selfishness.

I'm not saying I'm any less selfish, but at least my hands to myself. I don't impose my conduct on anyone else, just because I think they're doing things the "wrong way" and if everyone around me thinks I'm being disruptive, instead of trying to change ME, why not change their own

1.self
2.location?

Why do I have to bend to what everyone else wants? When is it my turn?

It never will be because we have people who put a bunch of stock in drugs and the DSM and the constitution and the bible. ALL of these documents are "rules" that are completely arbitrary. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about the sentiment found in them. They CAN'T be proven, and that's why the pharmaceutical companies and politicians and every swindler throughout history has taken advantage of. Arbitrary sensationalism.

The problem I have with the DSM is that it pretends that it's scientific. It's not.

I'm a bit too flustered about this right now. I'll make a more coherent point later.

I still can't believe that what I'm saying is being disputed.

Don't respond to anything in my post except this:

How can you say that these things are not arbitrary? Without leaning on the public's opinion -- I can get heart's other article, proving that people like to be led by authority, whether the authority is correct or just spewing shit; ergo the public is not to be trusted just because they like it -- can you really say that these things are even close to absolute. Can you say they're anything better than negotiable, or really up for grabs at best?

 

[Ivy]

Nocapszy. "Unplanned exploration" is great and I agree that educators and parents should be more open to it. But it's not all that makes up disruption. In my daughter's class (at a school where the children rarely sit, call their teachers by their first names, and don't use textbooks except in math, just so you don't think it's a "brick in the wall" type school) there are a couple of boys who frequently disrupt. They're not doing "unplanned exploration." They're calling this one girl in the class a fatty. They're doing a baby-voice version of every question my daughter asks. They're quoting lines from pro wrestlers. They're making fun of my daughter for being enthusiastic about learning.

How open-minded do you expect me to be about that?

 

[Wandering]

It can happen to fathers too. It is not the work itself, but does the preoccupation with the work drain the person so that they are emotionally unavailable at home?

A stay at home mother might be preoccupied with something other than a job. It is not as simple as working, not working. It is more a subject of mindset and priorities.

 

[heart]

It is not just the loud kids that get singled out. My biggest issue is school was daydreaming and being withdrawn. I was very quiet. I was considered a "problem" as well because I just opted out completely. I found school oppressive and rigid. I was tested in the first grade and judged to be too "abstract" (whatever that was supposed to mean, it was never really explained in a way my mother understood, I just remember the tester looking really sad, lol) and I suppose if I had been a thinker this would have been great for me, I would have had lots of fabulous insights and thoughts. As a feeler however, just mostly daydreaming.

 

[Nocapszy]

Nocapszy. "Unplanned exploration" is great and I agree that educators and parents should be more open to it. But it's not all that makes up disruption.

Right, so we drug all of them. Just to be safe. We don't want to take any risks here...


More of that fear bullshit

In my daughter's class (at a school where the children rarely sit, call their teachers by their first names, and don't use textbooks except in math, just so you don't think it's a "brick in the wall" type school) there are a couple of boys who frequently disrupt. They're not doing "unplanned exploration." They're calling this one girl in the class a fatty. They're doing a baby-voice version of every question my daughter asks. They're quoting lines from pro wrestlers. They're making fun of my daughter for being enthusiastic about learning.

Well those kids should be electroshocked. I'm not sure the drugs will be strong enough for them.

How open-minded do you expect me to be about that?

I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?

When did the responsibility of the parents go away?



I don't even see any middle ground here. It's irritating to be sure, but so is when my brother comes in my room talking to me about some stupid-ass video game. It's disruptive to my reading... but not really. I usually just go on reading, and he leaves.

I don't think there's something wrong with him, I just think he likes things that I don't.

Here's an idea -- allow your daughter to deal with it in a way she thinks appropriate. Maybe it won't work. But how's she going to learn to deal with people she doesn't like if she doesn't practice now? Instead we should give these kids drugs so they'll stop altogether, these kids don't get a lesson, your daughter doesn't either.

 

[Ivy]

It is not just the loud kids that get singled out. My biggest issue is school was daydreaming and being withdrawn. I was very quiet. I was considered a "problem" as well because I just opted out completely. I found school oppressive and rigid. I was tested in the first grade and judged to be too "abstract" and I suppose if I had been a thinker this would have been great for me, I would have had lots of fabulous insights and thoughts. As a feeler however, just mostly daydreaming.

Yep. Nearly the same experience here except I was fortunate enough to go to a decent elementary school that wasn't too oppressive or rigid, really. And the teachers were nice so I wanted to please them. When I moved up to middle school, though, I pretty much sat down on the job and decided it wasn't worth my time to do what they wanted if they didn't even care about me. That is when my mother (God bless her) took me out of public school and found a private Quaker school that was even less oppressive and rigid than the nice elementary school.

 

[heart]

Yep. Nearly the same experience here except I was fortunate enough to go to a decent elementary school that wasn't oppressive or rigid, really. When I moved up to middle school, though, I pretty much sat down on the job and decided it wasn't worth my time to do what they wanted if they didn't even care about me. That is when my mother (God bless her) took me out of public school and found a private Quaker school that was even less oppressive and rigid than the nice elementary school.

Yes, the underlined part was me too. I am happy for you that your mother did that for you.

In high school I would at times work to get A to amuse myself and I enjoyed the shock on the faces of the teachers because of course I was supposed to be a lost cause.

I was lucky, very lucky that my father had such a large collection of books at home and I read a lot on my own. The subjects in school were so boring to me, not really geared to what I wanted to know. I was more into social and history, humanities and things like that. College was better.

 

[heart]

I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?

When did the responsibility of the parents go away?



.

I don't know. Starting in grade 5 I was called ugly and things like that constantly in school. It was daily verbal abuse (some physical) and being treated as if I were subhuman and not worthy of the same considerations given to human beings. I was shunned, shammed. People who tell me they hated me. It was even suggested to me that I kill myself so that I would no longer be inflicting myself on the world. It was the most socially powerful children who did this and it was pretty global for that group. It was a group dynamic not just a few bad apples in that group. It was popular, a fad. It made one part of the in group. Like wearing the team logo on your t shirt.

I did my best to try and rise above it and ignore it, but it has been hard to be objective about it. Ignoring it did not stop it. It was a pleasurable bonding experience for the other children to share and it was not something they wanted to give up. A few teachers even encouraged it, snickering behind their hands.

It is hard for a Feeler to be totally disconnected from enviroment, especially an environment one cannot get out of. That is what makes school such hell. No matter how bad of a fit it is, it is compulsory. If someone is not fitting in, they are "wrong" and there is no alternative or escape. At night you get to go home to your house but next day you must go back to hell where you aren't wanted. It is hard to be distracted from the negative aspects.

Maybe it would be different for a Thinker.

I am not saying drugs are the answer though.

 

[Nocapszy]

I don't know. I was called ugly and things like that constantly in school. It was daily harassment and being treated as if I were subhuman and not worthy of the same considerations given to human beings.

Is that really much different from my position? I guess the difference is, I wasn't rejected only by my peers, but was also regarded as less than equal by my parents and teachers too. No one was on my side.

How is putting an OFFICIAL LABEL on kids any better? Seems to me that's just more an invitation to act out. Then they already know they're different. May as well act like it.

 

[Ivy]

Right, so we drug all of them. Just to be safe. We don't want to take any risks here...

More of that fear bullshit

I'd love it if you could point to a post of mine that indicates that I think all disruptive kids should be drugged. I'm satisfied with the way the school deals with it, which is warnings and then chats with the behavior guy, Justin, who is awesome at dealing with kinetic kids without shaming them.

Well those kids should be electroshocked. I'm not sure the drugs will be strong enough for them.

I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?

When did the responsibility of the parents go away?



I don't even see any middle ground here. It's irritating to be sure, but so is when my brother comes in my room talking to me about some stupid-ass video game. It's disruptive to my reading... but not really. I usually just go on reading, and he leaves.

I don't think there's something wrong with him, I just think he likes things that I don't.

Here's an idea -- allow your daughter to deal with it in a way she thinks appropriate. Maybe it won't work. But how's she going to learn to deal with people she doesn't like if she doesn't practice now? Instead we should give these kids drugs so they'll stop altogether, these kids don't get a lesson, your daughter doesn't either.

OMG I NEVER THUNK OF THIS THANK EWE NOCAPSZY

indeed.

In fact, she's pretty awesome at dealing with shitty behavior of other kids (she had a bully awhile back, and by standing up to him with humor and spine she actually turned him into a friend), but there's only so much a 50 lb 3rd grader who is the youngest in her class can do. At some point, the teacher (correctly, imo) asks them to go take a break with Justin so the rest of the class can get back to whatever fun activity they were trying to do.

 

[heart]

Is that really much different from my position? I guess the difference is, I wasn't rejected only by my peers, but was also regarded as less than equal by my parents and teachers too. No one was on my side.

How is putting an OFFICIAL LABEL on kids any better? Seems to me that's just more an invitation to act out. Then they already know they're different. May as well act like it.

I was just responding (rather emotionally!) to the dry look and the suggestion that ignoring abuse will stop it. It won't.

I am just saying I hate to see the issue of verbal abuse ( I won't minimize it by calling it bullying) excused in anyway. If someone is being harassed because of weight or appearance or because they are smart or whatever, it needs to be handled and not allowed. But drugs or medicalizing things that aren't medical isn't the answer either.

No one was on my side either. (My home life was abusive and violent.) I was a waste of space. A lost cause. A bad attitude. I know I am not the only one who went through this of course, just telling my experience. Ignoring abuse doesn't stop it, denying abuse doesn't stop it either.

It is just another symptom of a sick system.