• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Have you ever changed your mind on a fundamental issue as a result of an argument?

Octarine

The Eighth Colour
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
1,351
MBTI Type
Aeon
Enneagram
10w
Instinctual Variant
so
Have you ever changed your mind on a fundamental issue as a result of an argument?
On the internet or real life? Family or colleagues or friends?

What scale of issues?

On the contrary to popular belief about the efficacy of argument on the internet, I have seen people change their minds on big issues such as politics and religion, which were catalysed by arguments on the internet. But are these the exceptions, rather than the norms? (the individuals in question were NTs)
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
Yes both in real life and on the Internet.

I can be educated to see a different viewpoint.

It's one of the reasons why I do argue on the Internet. It's not just for entertainment and spewing my opinions, it's to think and learn.
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
5,059
MBTI Type
INtp
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Yes to both real life and the Internet.
 

SRT

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2011
Messages
174
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
?
Alot actually. Normally on issues dealing with politics or the like, where the implications of the policies or whatever affect others, and not just me. But its a slow process.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
I have to be open to the person. That's crucial. If I have some emotional wall or mental wall up against them for some personal reason, I can't learn from them. And I find that I learn a lot from NTs.

I've even learned from an ENTP who I argued BITTERLY with. But over time he became more consistent in simply supplying information instead of baiting me, and was extremely persistent about teaching me, and now I'm thankful for it.

A year ago, though, I wanted to smack him.

This doesn't mean I'm going to come around to everyone's way of thinking just because they're an NT or can present a logical, informative argument. I am capable of seeing when someone is simply being opinionated, even if they're being all Te or Ti about their opinions.

I mean, I'm not like in awe of NTs, I think I can hold my own. It's just that some of them make very good teachers.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Actually, not to me recollection. I've changed my mind about things I've had arguments with people about (decriminalizing drugs, using nuclear power, etc..) but it wasn't an argument itself that made the change. It was usually research that ended up changing my mind.

Okay, I thought of one. I used to deride vegetarianism, and now I often think I should probably become one if I want to be honest to my morals. That was the result of an argument.
 

Stanton Moore

morose bourgeoisie
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
3,900
MBTI Type
INFP
Well, on 'fundamental issues' I have not revised my stances, but I have on lesser things. I have become more open minded in general as I've gotten older. But on human rights, the value of life, ahimsa, equality, justice, etc, I have changed nothing, and never will.
 

Rail Tracer

Freaking Ratchet
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
3,031
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yes, but I have to be able to see your point.

Probably the biggest viewpoint that has changed is about military. Mostly in the form of the "College vs Military" ideologies and so forth. At this point, I just don't care who takes which path, but making snide remarks like "Yea, join the military so you can die across seas" or "You don't have pride for your country" quickly gets pushed to the side. What changed my viewpoint? Well it is a combination of seeing what people can do as well as knowing people who have served/is serving the military and at the same time, see people that go to college and seeing what they do.

In fact, I was pretty sure I was against going to the military, now it is like, if I, or someone else goes, than let me/him/her go. In fact, I won't argue with someone to not go.
 

SRT

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2011
Messages
174
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
?
Actually, not to me recollection. I've changed my mind about things I've had arguments with people about (decriminalizing drugs, using nuclear power, etc..) but it wasn't an argument itself that made the change. It was usually research that ended up changing my mind.

Okay, I thought of one. I used to deride vegetarianism, and now I often think I should probably become one if I want to be honest to my morals. That was the result of an argument.

Would you agree that there's a cumulative effect necessary to change your viewpoint, and that technically an argument was a contributing factor? I'm like you, an argument has never really directly/immediately altered my stance on a subject, but it has facilitated introspection, which has led to change.
 

Orangey

Blah
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
6,354
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
6w5
Not arguments on the internet (forums, anyway...articles and online papers are a different matter), but arguments from friends/colleagues and published papers have changed my mind.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Would you agree that there's a cumulative effect necessary to change your viewpoint, and that technically an argument was a contributing factor? I'm like you, an argument has never really directly/immediately altered my stance on a subject, but it has facilitated introspection, which has led to change.

Honestly, it's hard to say. I'm not sure how it is for others, but I don't think I can entirely trace the means by which I changed my mind. The impact of research I mentioned is usually the main thing that stands out, it's generally the thing I remember making the final change. I suppose in the sense that arguments will keep me thinking about the topic and may present me with research they must surely have some influence.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I change my mind frequently as the result of an argument/disagreement if the other side helps me to get a new connection that changes everything. my INTJ besty and I do this to each other on a weekly basis
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Nope. I basically just try to change the minds of libertarians and conservatives. Or at least get them to see the issues from a different perspective. Hopelessly arrogant I know..
 

Xenon

(blankpages)
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
832
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
I think it's quite common for people to change their minds by reading arguments or debates, especially if it's an issue they haven't put much thought into in the first place. I've heard bloggers, etc. say this is a reason they're willing to debate in their comments section: even if the people arguing with them don't back down, they can still influence those who are reading the exchange. People tend to become more invested in defending their viewpoints once they've publicly taken a side, and will work harder to seek out information that supports it and explain away information that does not.

I'm pretty open to changing my viewpoint if it's something I haven't thought much about and someone presents reasoning or evidence I haven't heard before. When I've already done a lot of research/reasoning of my own, I become a lot more set in my opinion. The times I've changed my mind on a firmly held belief were the result of several sources and happened over a fairly long period of time.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Nope. I basically just try to change the minds of libertarians and conservatives. Or at least get them to see the issues from a different perspective. Hopelessly arrogant I know..

If that bothers you, you have the option to change your approach, you know...

Have you ever changed your mind on a fundamental issue as a result of an argument?
On the internet or real life? Family or colleagues or friends?

What scale of issues?

On the contrary to popular belief about the efficacy of argument on the internet, I have seen people change their minds on big issues such as politics and religion, which were catalysed by arguments on the internet. But are these the exceptions, rather than the norms? (the individuals in question were NTs)

I'm actually pretty teachable, regardless of whether the other person is family, friend, acquaintance, or stranger. It's the idea that impacts me. The funny thing is that it sometimes doesn't have to be specifically what the other person has argued -- they can convince me of a minor point in their argument, but immediately I will systematically run that shift through the entire situation all on my own (they don't need to point it out to me) and sometimes it can make drastic changes in the answer I end up at. So they'll win me on a small point, and suddenly they might be shocked that my seemingly unrelated (but actually it is very related) conclusion shifts.

I'm sitting here and trying to think of some large shift I made in something because of an actual argument. It took me awhile, but now I've had a few.

1. About ten years ago, when I was arguing circumcision with an atheist ESTJ friend, where at that time I had held the position that circumcision was supported because of its health benefits. I don't remember what he said (although he was always pretty blunt, and detailed, and relentless)... but during that discussion it registered to me that, although people were claiming statistical percentages of health increase to support circumcision, actually those percentages made for very very small shifts in the actual number of lives improved. For example, one could claim that circumcision reduces risk of disease by 50% (that sounds like a HUGE number), but if you look at the data, it could simply mean that instead of 12 boys out of 10,000 getting an infection, only 6 boys out of 10,000 get an infection.

So we're talking about a medical operation that removes skin from the genital area from virtually 80% of the boys being born at the time, with potential loss of sensitivity (and medical complications) that only makes life better for 6 out of every 10,000 of them. Putting things in perspective changed my viewpoint from that day forward.

2. The same guy (and I think it's because he was a thinker, but relentless, and coming at thinking from a concrete POV, challenging me in an area I'm not as good at) also pushed me on my spiritual faith. I was already cycling through long periods of existential doubt and my faith was never stable. I was operating under the assumption that, at some level, all of my spiritual beliefs could be rationally proven somehow, and thus build on solid evidence. But he never let up, and his sheer, concrete rationalism forced me down, down, down to the very core of my beliefs and their foundation... and I realized that there was an uncrossable gap there (similar to Kierkegaard's) that rationality could not bridge. I could never "prove" my beliefs to myself or another person, instead there was a gap I could only cross by faith... and if I never took the risk to use faith to cross it, I would never believe. Thus, he showed me the limit of my intellect in some areas of life.

He didn't even realize he did this, or that he left me in a severe existential depression from which my old way of viewing the world never recovered. It took me some months to get through that experience, and then start to rebuild... but seeing the world very differently.

A few other notes:

1. Aside from rational arguments, I'm also a self-teacher. So someone can say something on one topic, but then I'll apply it across the map in my own belief structure and end up making profound changes when they weren't even saying something very profound for them, or a big deal to them.

2. Our arguments also impacted the guy I described above, winning him over on some points, and that rarely happened with him. I think it's because he never really much considered a more conceptual T perspective + intuition (he was so concrete). We were both different that we forced each other into new territory. But those arguments were still pretty painful to me, because I don't much like relentless conflict, even if I can appreciate them now.

3. I can't tell you how OTHER people respond. Typically, I don't see such arguments as having much impact. It depends on the perspective of the person: If they are someone who challenges themselves and their own thinking, then they'll grow from the experience. But if they are just the sort who is scared/stubborn to change and has a lack of intellectual honesty, then they'll just defend themselves and not really process the challenge.
 

ThinkingAboutIt

New member
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
264
MBTI Type
INTP
Yes, though I would ultimately reach that point after research on my own. At times, the person presenting the argument matters as well - if I've lost respect for them I will not listen to them - I may not even read their posts. More often than not though, even if I do not care for someone personally, I can agree with the validity of their argument if they are right.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
As soon as someone uses the right/wrong dichotomy and then plunks down a ton of subjective opinion as evidence to support it, I shut down and just view them as blathering idiots.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
I'm pretty consistent in my beliefs, argument has only clarified what I've already known about the topics in question, the same goes for dialogue or discussion but argument is the most common thing which you find in stands in for dialogue or discussion on most topics. Oft times I find people are seeking different sorts of validation, not simply of a particular perspective or opinion but themselves when they sally out in topical discussions. Argument is a poor substitute for discussion.

Something which might interest people to know is that oft times I dont join topical discussions with a hope of changing others minds or opinions, ultimately the only people who will do that will be people themselves, they'll do their own thinking and research if you can seed an interest in them at best. I dont expect to change opinions or minds and also sometimes respect people whose minds or opinions are not that changeable and who display tenacity.

What I dont like are unexamined opinions a lot of the time its the beginnings of sophistry and I dont rate sincerity too highly when its sincere belief in empty hopes or well meant falsehoods.
 
Top