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Demanding Fakeness

Tallulah

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When I was younger, I was much like the OP. I really resented being interrupted and asked what I was thinking about or why I looked sad, or being prompted to smile.

Nowadays, I've resolved that problem by treating the situation as an opportunity for a brain dump: I tell the other person what I was thinking about right at that moment. Sometimes I have to clean it up or be general so as not to shock or be socially inappropriate, but in general I really do tell them what was on my mind, sort of as an anecdote. Even to total strangers.

And usually people are interested. It reassures them that I'm not in a foul mood because of them; and it makes me seem more transparent (and therefore non-threatening) because they see me opening up easily to them on demand. And personally I kind of have fun with it. It's kind of a surprise to me what comes out sometimes.

But that's how I've resolved that situation as I've gotten older. Furthermore, it suggests to me an answer as to why that situation was such a problem when I was younger. It was because I imagined some kind of high barrier or wall between "me" and "them" that I felt shouldn't be breached. Now that I've gotten in the habit of breaching it, I find it's kind of fun to let people in on my thought processes. I think it gets back to the "self-monitoring" thread, and perhaps concerns the issue of what we consider our "true self" (and how zealously we guard it from the outside world).

Just my two cents, of course. Oh well, off to bed.:zzz:

Good thoughts! I can relate to what you're saying...I do get annoyed, feeling like people are being invasive and forcing their views/attitudes/moods on me, but at the same time, I do feel like I sometimes put up an antisocial wall. When I'm at my least neurotic and most self-confident, things like that don't bother me as much, and I start to realize that the "barrier" is often self-imposed. I'm most protective of myself and more a staunch defender of my right to be different when I don't feel balanced or completely confident.

I'm not saying it's the same for everyone, but it does come into play with me. I imagine the level of one's introversion also is a factor. I am mostly introverted, but I have bursts of extraversion, and when I do, sometimes I'll FEEL like being a "yay" person, but it's still my choice. It's okay if you don't want to "yay," but deliberately choosing not to out of principle, just to be different, is not necessarily more "real." It might feel more real, but can also be a way to distance yourself from your humanity. I struggle with this idea a lot, and I don't know if it's an INTP thing? I feel isolated, so I make an effort to understand people better and my chameleon skills go to work. But then I feel uncomfortable after a while, b/c it feels inauthentic. Then I go back to being ultra-independent, which is a lot of the time just going against the grain to feel different/individualist. It's something I've struggled with my whole life, and I don't know if I've ever really come up with an answer for it.

I guess the closest I've come is to realize that there are a small group of people with whom I feel authentic, and I don't ever have to think about issues like this around them. These are the friendships that matter to me. It's only among acquaintances/work colleagues/etc. that the "fakeness" issue comes into play.
 

Grayscale

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Of course I don't mean losing all tact or sensitivity, I just mean letting go of the joy addict type stuff, all the smiling depressives running around, smiling all day and crying inside, alone and trapped.

an important distinction. all too often i hear people ask for "honesty", but based on my perceptions of them i can say resolutely that they would not like hearing it. the times i have ignored those perceptions have reinforced them as correct.

my plight has often been that, internally, the most biting realities exist harmoniously through a greater attitude or understanding, and although i can convey the former if i choose, the latter is not something i can teach someone

the issue of sincerity and "integrity to internal self" is a difficult one for me. if being sensitive to others' feelings means altering how you say things, wouldn't that require a certain level of insincerity?
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Great post!!!

I think part of the reason why I happen to be such a great "people person", is the fact that I am very cognizant, understanding, and accepting of myself, and all of my myriad issues. For some reason, as you mentioned above, this directly correlates with one's ability to be compassionate with others.

Coolness!!! :D

I dated someone like this a while ago. She was able to laugh at all of her insane quirky habits. It was kind of endearing, even though sometimes I wished she would look into them and do some introspection. She introspected from a distance. Extrospected? :)
 

SillySapienne

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When I was younger, I was much like the OP. I really resented being interrupted and asked what I was thinking about or why I looked sad, or being prompted to smile.

Nowadays, I've resolved that problem by treating the situation as an opportunity for a brain dump: I tell the other person what I was thinking about right at that moment. Sometimes I have to clean it up or be general so as not to shock or be socially inappropriate, but in general I really do tell them what was on my mind, sort of as an anecdote. Even to total strangers.

And usually people are interested. It reassures them that I'm not in a foul mood because of them; and it makes me seem more transparent (and therefore non-threatening) because they see me opening up easily to them on demand. And personally I kind of have fun with it. It's kind of a surprise to me what comes out sometimes.

But that's how I've resolved that situation as I've gotten older. Furthermore, it suggests to me an answer as to why that situation was such a problem when I was younger. It was because I imagined some kind of high barrier or wall between "me" and "them" that I felt shouldn't be breached. Now that I've gotten in the habit of breaching it, I find it's kind of fun to let people in on my thought processes. I think it gets back to the "self-monitoring" thread, and perhaps concerns the issue of what we consider our "true self" (and how zealously we guard it from the outside world).
How dare I not mention that this is an awesome and insightful post, also, it would seem that most "strangers" I happen to engage, share your sentiments... and I love it!!!!

I love *truly* getting to know people, even when those persons happen to be people you'll never see or meet again, crap, my heart is swelling from thinking about this. I'm suddenly overcome with Maverick's illness, dear me, I love people!!!!
 

heart

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an important distinction. all too often i hear people ask for "honesty", but based on my perceptions of them i can say resolutely that they would not like hearing it. the times i have ignored those perceptions have reinforced them as correct.

my plight has often been that, internally, the most biting realities exist harmoniously through a greater attitude or understanding, and although i can convey the former if i choose, the latter is not something i can teach someone

the issue of sincerity and "integrity to internal self" is a difficult one for me. if being sensitive to others' feelings means altering how you say things, wouldn't that require a certain level of insincerity?

It is a fineline and depends on when and where one is and how deep to go with that person. I can come up with some pretty scary Fi type refelections that I usually have to keep to myself because it scares/disturbs other people to hear it because they don't like to think about the more unpleasant aspects of life. It isn't that I am fake with others, it is just that I am selective with whom I share the deeper reflections I have about life and the darker side of life.
 

Athenian200

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You know, people aren't really as strict about that as you think. People do ask me questions like that, but I never inferred that it was because they expected something and were irritated that I wasn't giving it to them. I always assumed it was because I was quiet/subdued, and they're usually only that way when they're tired or sad.

I just say that I'm fine, and thank them for asking. They usually seem to accept that response and don't pursue further. I occasionally manage to casually mention in conversation that I read a lot, and that I'm somewhat nervous in public. They generally get the idea at that point and accept my typical behavior.

Finally, if the people I usually work/sit close like to talk to me, I usually wave to them, say hello, ask them how they're doing, tell them one thing that happened to me recently, and then proceed to mention what I'm working on and lay it out to start working (so I always bring something important-looking to work on when I'm going to be around people). This usually results in them remembering something they forgot to do, and trying to do some work themselves. You can keep this pattern up for over a year, in my experience, and people never start to expect more.

So basically, people are easily appeased.
 

Grayscale

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I dated someone like this a while ago. She was able to laugh at all of her insane quirky habits. It was kind of endearing, even though sometimes I wished she would look into them and do some introspection. She introspected from a distance. Extrospected? :)

laughter is often something people use to distancing themselves from things they cant/havent come to terms with, as is a detached point of view. sounds like an interesting person...

It is a fineline and depends on when and where one is and how deep to go with that person. I can come up with some pretty scary Fi type refelections that I usually have to keep to myself because it scares/disturbs other people to hear it because they don't like to think about the more unpleasant aspects of life. It isn't that I am fake with others, it is just that I am selective with whom I share the deeper reflections I have about life and the darker side of life.

a common approach... i am driven to jump into the raw, unfriendly reality of anything because experience tells me i will come out on the other side a stronger, more balanced person. it is one of my goals with people is to help them not only see things as they are, but to overcome the challenges involved... i earnestly believe most people can do it, and they will be better off for doing so! unfortunately i rarely get a chance to get to the second half :sad:
 

heart

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a common approach... i am driven to jump into the raw, unfriendly reality of anything because experience tells me i will come out on the other side a stronger, more balanced person. it is one of my goals with people is to help them not only see things as they are, but to overcome the challenges involved. i rarely get a chance to get to the second half of that :sad:

Maybe it is the difference between Fi and Ti, but for the most part I see other people's facing the world as it is as something they must do for themselves. I certainly will try to help someone if they ask, but I am more apt to try and help them uncover what they want to do or how they really feel.

The only time this is different is when I sense that someone is projecting a fake persona to the world and I want to probe deeper into that and uncover the real person.

When I say fake, I don't mean merely not showing all their cards, but presenting fake cards to the world. It is fair to not show all that one is, but not so pleasing or flattering to show other than one is.

I am not altogether comfortable with this desire in myself either, I feel like maybe it is none of my business to try and uncover the real person underneath.
 

SillySapienne

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the issue of sincerity and "integrity to internal self" is a difficult one for me. if being sensitive to others' feelings means altering how you say things, wouldn't that require a certain level of insincerity?
I am of the opinion that if you *care* about someone, you'll relay the truth to them and keep it real!!!

Just yesterday, I was talking to my sister about my being misperceived as an a-hole at times, and she was saying how this occurs because some/most people aren't used to experiencing people who exhibit my kind of "brutal honesty".

My family members and my best friend can be annoyed by it at times, but at least they know I am always being sincere and telling them the truth of how I happen to see/perceive things.


*Dishonest people are almost always insidiously either a.) hiding something, or b.) trying to sell you something.


Quite naturally, they are *not* to be trusted.
 

Grayscale

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I am not altogether comfortable with this desire in myself either, I feel like maybe it is none of my business to try and uncover the real person underneath.

i dont think its a black and white issue... requires perception of the person and whether the facade is something that you can help them realize is unnecessary, or if it's a side affect of a something deeper that probing will not help (or may even make worse)

for instance, when it's a result of vulnerabilities that will only get worse if you poke them :)

as much as i like "one size fits all" approaches, they are rarely as universally ideal as they are applicable
 

heart

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i dont think its a black and white issue... requires perception of the person and whether the facade is something that you can help them realize is unnecessary, or if it's a side affect of a something deeper that probing will not help (or may even make worse)

for instance, when it's a result of vulnerabilities that will only get worse if you poke them :)

It is reaction to the hypocrisy and the fakeness. I hate being BS'ed, I see it as a reflection of the greater BS in society. All the individuals with their BS coming together to create one big mess of a fake BS soup.

I hate forced, mindless conformity. I hate fake, mindless reaction and rebellion for its own sake. Both of these extremes are total BS.

I feel like if everyone would just use their own cognizance and thinking, situation by situation, issue by issue, society as whole would heal. I feel like this can only happen one individual at a time.
 

Grayscale

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I feel like if everyone would just use their own cognizance and thinking, situation by situation, issue by issue, society as whole would heal.

a strategy unfit for sheep... err, the human population :ninja:
 

SillySapienne

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Oh, and let's just be clear here, insincerity is a softer word for dishonesty.

There is only one form of dishonesty that I condone as being potentially acceptable, and that is when someone "lies" by omission.

It is absolutely wrong to tell someone a lie, period!!!

However, if you don't feel like telling them the truth, you can abstain, by choosing to tell them nothing.

Also: PHONY PEOPLE = CRAPPY PEOPLE
 

Athenian200

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You must hang with vastly different people than I seem to run into! :D

So, you mean the people you interact with expect you to really interact with them frequently in very extroverted ways and fairly openly judge you for not doing so?? I would guess that might be because you've said something semi-personal that implies you want to be a real friend to them. I'm careful to keep the things I say/do within the "standard politeness" area where people can't infer that. They can hit you up with all kinds of expectations if you get outside of that by making a meaningful statement or being honest with them. That's why you should say as much as possible while not really saying anything other than "I acknowledge you, am fairly amiable to people but reserved, and do not dislike you." Thanks to the structure of our language/conventions, this is very easy to do. You want to keep your conversations more like a rice cake than actual food.

I get the impression you don't really do that, and thus people expect more openness/participation, because you've already inadvertently expressed interest in a deeper connection with higher expectations by making a meaningful insight about them or showing a certain amount of genuine personal interest. Those are the worst things you can do.

I deal with it by ignoring it, but even if it's easy to dismiss, I still find it imposing.

Yeah, I can understand that. I do feel very imposed on if I get interrupted at home, but for some reason it doesn't bother me as much in public... perhaps I'm just expecting it there.

Still, those are easy ways of giving people "a bone," so to speak, and takes less time and energy than trying to deal with the expectations that develop after they've been offended.
 

Mempy

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Unfortunately, when I'm in relationships, I tend to create excitement or laughter to fill in gaps of silence because in my warped fragile little mind, silence bodes distance. It's common on first dates, but I don't transition out of that stage very well. *shrug*

Same here.

Damn! This thread is long.

Well, I myself am uncomfortable with my loneliness and neediness, when I am aware of it in myself. The way I perceive loneliness, I'm uncertain whether to be ashamed of it completely, whether to be ashamed that I don't know how to solve it, or whether to be ashamed of the behaviors loneliness can and often does lead to, such as behaviors that are subconsciously geared entirely toward holding onto people.

I have recently begun to clarify my confusion. Tonight I wondered what the proper approach to people is, on the continuum of dependence. How much should one consider oneself independent from people? How much should one consider oneself dependent? I've been on both ends of the spectrum, first so dependent I built my life around my intimates, and then so independent I thought I could never again truly need another person emotionally, and therefore could never love another. I worried that I would never have another intimate relationship because I could not sacrifice my independence, but I was mostly happy with myself and my mindset.

It's not as easy to feel independent anymore. I am lonely. So telling myself that people aren't necessary in my life is on some level a lie. There is some natural need for social interaction and human intimacy present, probably in all of us. Are people necessary for my happiness? Well, on some level, yes. Are they necessary for most of my happiness? Well, I don't know, but I'd like to think not. It makes me feel good to think I'm independent. The more dependent on people I feel, the sadder I am. Still, the social interaction I need is a part of what I must obtain, and that means that I am not entirely independent.

I've also noticed that the more independent I feel, the more inconsiderate I tend to be of other people. It leads me often to reckless indifference toward other people's feelings, needs and wants. I'm #1, and if I don't need others, there's no consequence to alienating them. Being capable of sensitivity and empathy more and more these days reminds me of times in the past when I arrogantly disregarded what other people felt and wanted. I was dizzy with the novel feeling that I was not obligated to hold others delicately, so I didn't.

Also, looking back on things I wrote years ago, I've found that blind faith in one's own independence and greatness can and does lead to unapologetic idiocy.

So let's round this in to your topic. At the same time that independence can lead to arrogance, some level of independence is definitely required. To the extent that one feels one's happiness is dependent on other people and how those people feel toward one, one will probably feel self-conscious and trapped in behaviors designed to avert others' unease and dislike. I think this is where my topic and yours really begin to merge. The people who feel dependent on the positive reactions of others will feel more obligated to please those people and to hold onto them, which means holding oneself to social norms and systems.

I don't want to be at either extreme: so independent I couldn't give a flying rat's ass about others, or so indifferent that the loneliness of others comes across as the whining and blubbering of a bunch of damn queens. But I also don't want to be stifled by my dependency on others, inasmuch as dependency creates rules for one to follow, fosters self-consciousness, and often cripples one socially. They both have their pros and cons. I want to be somewhere between the two extremes, definitely leaning in the independent direction, but not entirely.
 

Athenian200

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After reading a few responses...

One thing I don't understand is why everyone is so bothered by the "false" nature of interactions. Don't you realize that if we didn't have that in place, we'd actually have to get down in there and interact with everybody to keep them appeased? Which takes a lot more energy/thought than a standardized response. Honestly, just imagining trying to deal with so many individual, unpredictable demands on a regular basis makes me terrified. :horor:

Giving people nothing but basic symbols of acceptance/politeness is an easy way to keep them "off your back" emotionally. If you give them all the right responses (which almost never change), you barely have to think about or interact with them, and they don't even dislike you for it. They'll probably even think you're a nice person. What's the downside?

I'd think it would actually seem like a good thing, because you aren't expected to really deal with the person, you can just give them a quick, standard response, and go back to your thoughts.
 

mippus

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Giving people nothing but basic symbols of acceptance/politeness is an easy way to keep them "off your back" emotionally. If you give them all the right responses (which almost never change), you barely have to think about or interact with them, and they don't even dislike you for it. They'll probably even think you're a nice person. What's the downside?

At the risk of being accused of ageism, but a strickt honesty-dishonesty and truthful-truthless polarisation is something that might work as long as you are in your teens, but later on, you learn that things are so terribly complex with people and that being honest and still sociable is walking a very thin line. the symbols mentioned above are great help in this...

PS: great thread!
 
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