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There's no such thing as the unconscious/subconscious?

Lark

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I wonder if anyone else has encountered this and what they think of it, in a lot of the more recent psychological literature and sources which I've encountered there's explicit denial of the existence of any such thing as the unconscious or even a subconscious.

I'm not talking about the hardline behaviourist denial of thinking processes, when thinking could only be studied or conceptualised as "covert behaviour" or pre-cognitive theoretical concepts.

What I'm talking about is a consensus that while there may be explicit and implicit cognitions, incubation periods, automated processes and skilling/learning processes but there's nothing like the unconscious as formulated by psychoanalysis.

What do you think because I'm not really personally that able to dispense with the idea, what I've read from psycho-analysis, its precursors and rivals, the unconscious is a useful and meaningful concept, and I mean not simply as intellect or intellectualising psychological mechanisms but feelings and emotions too. I dont see what benefit there is in despensing with the idea anymore than there would be benefit from mythologising or exaggerating its significance.
 

Santosha

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Heh. This could turn into an interesting thread :D

Since "subconsious" does not have a set criteria or definition, it is really difficult to "prove" it. Its kinda like God. For it to exist, it must be inside the framework. But the mere idea of it says its not. Anyhow, going from the typical psycho analytical idea of it, that it is a force that can only be recognized by its effects, expressing its self in symptom, I'd say yes it very clearly exists.

http://pukamble.tripod.com/subconc1.htm

Edit: A discussion like this could become very illusive. Without a set definition, clear understanding or communiation will be hard. You might want to ask people that do believe in the subconscious to define and give examples, then try to weed out what is or is not, by that criteria.
 

Jaguar

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in a lot of the more recent psychological literature and sources which I've encountered there's explicit denial of the existence of any such thing as the unconscious or even a subconscious.

Post the sources so people know exactly what you're referring to.
 

INTP

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people dont even know what unconscious is, how could one deny that it doesent exist. its pretty obvious that most of out brain activity is below threshold level of being conscious.. if some cognitive scientist made up a new name for what ever unconscious is, it doesent mean that there is no unconscious.
 

INTP

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Heh. This could turn into an interesting thread :D

Since "subconsious" does not have a set criteria or definition, it is really difficult to "prove" it. Its kinda like God. For it to exist, it must be inside the framework. But the mere idea of it says its not. Anyhow, going from the typical psycho analytical idea of it, that it is a force that can only be recognized by its effects, expressing its self in symptom, I'd say yes it very clearly exists.

http://pukamble.tripod.com/subconc1.htm

subconscious as unconscious has theories. if i remember right the term was invented by freud. to him it means thoughts, memories etc that is not on a conscious mind, but can be easily brought onto the conscious, unlike with unconscious. so yes it has definition, but i think many other people have their own definitions also. and because it havent been scientifically proved(like unconscious), they all remain theories.
 

KDude

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The human brain can store the equivalent of 3 or 4 petabytes of data (something like that). That's a lot of storage to just "sit" around until you draw upon it consciously. Also, maybe some people who are highly conscientious or something might be more inclined to choices and idea/image association explicitly through intellect or will, but I think there are a lot of underlying processes at play for most. I'm just making this up as I go along, but I imagine the brain kind of running like a microkernel based operating system. Where the microkernel represents the core (id-like) parts of the human mind, and other routines are outsourced to various "servers".. which represent domains of thought that turn off and on depending on situational stimuli or routines that require it's special assistance. And sometimes these routines can be so subtle that you wouldn't consciously notice them.. these are your habitual choices and such. While at other times, the "legwork" required for some subconscious thought can be so demanding or make enough of an impact that you consciously have glimpses of what's happening. Deeper motivations or memories for what you do. I would compare it to an office building, where you're working in your cubicle on the 4th floor, and some construction workers two floors below, who are usually unobtrusive, start hammering so hard that you become aware of them. Yet, the ironic thing is that the construction workers are you as well.

Uh.. anyways. I don't have time to articulate it.
 

guesswho

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the unconscious as formulated by psychoanalysis.

You should have bolded that.

Hell I can't remember what they said about it, but from what I remember Freud said some freaky stuff. It's obviously not entirely correct, but we have unconscious behavior for example, all kinds of patterns and stuff. And it's a little freaky. What would the world be if everything were conscious to us? We can't even process all the information consciously, we filter it.

And, speaking of unconscious patterns, I like this example...I think I talked about this before.

A friend of mine was always having issues with his father, with his authority. His father never let him do anything interesting when he was present, nor did he give him much money. He made him study etc.

He grows up, he is very smart, he can be anything he wants to be, he can go to so many colleges.

Where does he go?

To the army -infantry. (It's an army academy, they study a lot there)

So now, he has a new authority, which will tell him what to do (when present), give him very little money and not let him do anything "P"ish.

Now if someone would have told him this, and showed him the pattern, what would have he decided? Army, or no army?
 

Lark

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people dont even know what unconscious is, how could one deny that it doesent exist. its pretty obvious that most of out brain activity is below threshold level of being conscious.. if some cognitive scientist made up a new name for what ever unconscious is, it doesent mean that there is no unconscious.

Well the idea is that if you dont and theoretically can not know either the unconscious or content of the unconscious how can you know that there is such a thing at all? Ergo its just a theoretical construct with no basis in fact, personally I think Freud's observations about, first, the existence of a memories and motives which are not conscious, and, second, then about how various processes like repression utilise that aspect of the mind all remain valid.

As a true Jungian I do think it is perhaps a matter of semantics, symbolic concepts come and go but they are often explaining the same things and what is being labelled are perrenial.
 

KDude

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Well the idea is that if you dont and theoretically can not know either the unconscious or content of the unconscious how can you know that there is such a thing at all? Ergo its just a theoretical construct with no basis in fact, personally I think Freud's observations about, first, the existence of a memories and motives which are not conscious, and, second, then about how various processes like repression utilise that aspect of the mind all remain valid.

As a true Jungian I do think it is perhaps a matter of semantics, symbolic concepts come and go but they are often explaining the same things and what is being labelled are perrenial.

You're also Te dominant. Much of your perspective will revolve around what you've gleaned as objective.. environmentally speaking. You're also extroverted. Why would you have much experience with noticing your subconscious at play to begin with? Not to say you couldn't (that would be ridiculous), but if "type" has anything to do it, you orient yourself in ways that aren't conducive to it imo.
 

Santosha

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Ya, you should try to find some links or arguments against the subcon. I just did a quick search, came across a site that stated it was against the subcon, but the specifics of it were directed against using hypnotherapy as a psycological tool. The only argument I found what that the subcon may indeed exist, but shrinks attempting to interpret how this manifests into behavior is invalid, as there is nothing to measure it by.
 

Thalassa

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There has to be a subconscious. Some people are so unaware of themselves that they're clearly not conscious of their own issues.

What are dreams if there is no subconscious? Why do schizophrenics have a hard time deciphering their subconscious world consciously from "the real world"?

That someone would even propose this actually strikes me as ESTJ. I would think an ESTJ would be most likely to claim this.

ENTJs have Ni, they must be aware of the subconscious at work, on some level.
 

Santosha

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There has to be a subconscious. Some people are so unaware of themselves that they're clearly not conscious of their own issues.

What are dreams if there is no subconscious? Why do schizophrenics have a hard time deciphering their subconscious world consciously from "the real world"?

That someone would even propose this actually strikes me as ESTJ. I would think an ESTJ would be most likely to claim this.

ENTJs have Ni, they must be aware of the subconscious at work, on some level.

I think you and I had the same initial responce. "WHAT A PREPOSTEROUS NOTION!" lol. This whole argument lies in the definition.
 

Mole

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And, speaking of unconscious patterns, I like this example...I think I talked about this before.

A friend of mine was always having issues with his father, with his authority. His father never let him do anything interesting when he was present, nor did he give him much money. He made him study etc.

He grows up, he is very smart, he can be anything he wants to be, he can go to so many colleges.

Where does he go?

To the army -infantry. (It's an army academy, they study a lot there)

So now, he has a new authority, which will tell him what to do (when present), give him very little money and not let him do anything "P"ish.

Now if someone would have told him this, and showed him the pattern, what would have he decided? Army, or no army?

Yes, in Analysis Sigmund Freud sought to explore Carl Jung's father fixation, but Carl was highly resistant. So resistant Carl broke off Analysis.

And if the Analysis had been successful Carl may have avoided the mistake of adopting his next father figure who was the Führer.
 

Qlip

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Subconscious is really self defining by the word's own root and prefix so I don't think you can say its existence is unprovable because of the lack of an agreed definition. Maybe how it functions and what role it plays is up for grabs, but 'it' isn't.
 

rav3n

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Check out this study by Lewicki:

http://cogprints.org/722/

Excerpt from full text said:
In light of the evidence reviewed in this article, the "division of functions" between the nonconscious and consciously controlled aspects of human cognition appears to be quantitatively and qualitatively asymmetrical. Most of the "real work" (both in the acquisition of skills and the execution of cognitive operations such as encoding and interpretation of stimuli) is being done at the level to which our consciousness has no access. Moreover, even if the access to that level existed, it could not be used in any way because the formal sophistication of that level and its necessary speed of processing exceed considerably what can even be approached by our consciously controlled thinking. The "responsibilities" of this inaccessible level of our cognition are not limited to the "housekeeping" operations such as retrieving information from memory or adjusting the level of arousal; they are directly involved in the development of interpretive categories, drawing inferences, determining emotional reactions, and other "high-level" cognitive operations traditionally associated with consciously controlled "thinking."
 

Santosha

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Subconscious is really self defining by the word's own root and prefix so I don't think you can say its existence is unprovable because of the lack of an agreed definition. Maybe how it functions and what role it plays is up for grabs, but 'it' isn't.

Agree. I was looking at it as:

"The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as a meaning-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings."

Is the brain active when we are asleep? Sure. They can prove this. Can it be meausred in any quantifiable sense? No. You cant find it on an MRI or link it to a specific area of brain activity. (Atleast I don't think we can.)
 

Mole

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Check out this study by Lewicki:

http://cogprints.org/722/

Yes, almost all of our mental activity is unconscious yet in our vanity we identify only with our conscious.

Almost everyone here has little or no access to their unconscious, and in our vanity, we think we are in control. In fact we panic when we think we are losing control. We are absurd, ridiculous and vain. Comedy and tragedy in one package - walking examples of Ancient Greek Theatre.
 

rav3n

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Yes, almost all of our mental activity is unconscious yet in our vanity we identify only with our conscious.

Almost everyone here has little or no access to their unconscious, and in our vanity, we think we are in control. In fact we panic when we think we are losing control. We are absurd, ridiculous and vain. Comedy and tragedy in one package - walking examples of Ancient Greek Theatre.
I fully agree with this.
 

Jaguar

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Mysteries of the Mind
Your unconscious is making your everyday decisions
By Marianne Szegedy-Maszak
Posted 2/20/05

According to cognitive neuroscientists, we are conscious of only about 5 percent of our cognitive activity, so most of our decisions, actions, emotions, and behavior depends on the 95 percent of brain activity that goes beyond our conscious awareness.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/050228/28think.htm
 
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