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Do you use doublethink?

Do you use doublethink?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 21 53.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 14 35.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 4 10.3%

  • Total voters
    39

Orangey

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schizophrenic thought much?

Well, yes.

Doublethink is just a method of continually deceiving oneself into believing that the contradictory thoughts one holds are true. And this is basically accomplished through tactics of willful ignorance and deception. I'm really failing to see how this type of thinking is anything short of delusional. If anything, it's a tendency for sloppy and solipsistic thinking that must be actively avoided.

Crimestop:

The faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. In short....protective stupidity.

Doublethink:

But stupidity is not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.
 

Athenian200

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Well, yes.

Doublethink is just a method of continually deceiving oneself into believing that the contradictory thoughts one holds are true. And this is basically accomplished through tactics of willful ignorance and deception. I'm really failing to see how this type of thinking is anything short of delusional. If anything, it's a tendency for sloppy and solipsistic thinking that must be actively avoided.

I think the quoted version is just one example of how it could be used, and it's extremely negative and specific. Even in the novel, there are better definitions.
 
G

garbage

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To me, having two seemingly contradictory beliefs means that there's some 'greater' truth that I'm missing that either rules one of them out or encompasses both. Sometimes, I'm satisfied with not yet having found that overarching truth.

Often, when a greater truth encompasses two 'contradictory' beliefs, it becomes easy to shift one's mindset from one to the other whenever a situation or problem calls for it, perhaps by consciously tweaking assumptions or definitions. That flexibility becomes pretty handy--say, in problem-solving or in tracking with another person when they're presenting their own thoughts.


A particular mental model is just a particular abstraction of reality, anyway.
 

Fluffywolf

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No I don't.

I think from all angles and all perspectives I can think off, but there's always one 'belief' that I feel is closest to the truth, or at the very least holds the most meaning for me. And I don't see how I can possibly belief in two contradiction beliefs.

Even when the ultimate truth is unclear, I'd always be able to distinguish a path I feel is more important to me.

I think I'd experience the same as those robots in movies that are struggling between two contradictive directives and end up blowing up. Kabloowee!
 

entropie

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I always doublethink, except when I am angry. Drives my girlfriend insane and makes her angry, what makes me angry. We vent on the cat, which has left us for a 3 month health retreat
 

Haight

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"In all affairs it’s a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted."
Bertrand Russell

I've taken that suggestion a lot further than anyone should.
 

Fluffywolf

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"In all affairs it’s a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted."
Bertrand Russell

I've taken that suggestion a lot further than anyone should.

I think it means people should cherish the things they take for granted more, not completely remove their value in a fit of paranoia. xD
 

Santosha

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Does Double think only apply to value judgements?
 

Jonny

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I think this thread should be merged with the unfair moderation thread. It seems quite relevant.
 

Athenian200

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Does Double think only apply to value judgements?

Usually that's where it's necessary. It can theoretically be applied to objective judgments, but it works best with value judgments, IME.

I think this thread should be merged with the unfair moderation thread. It seems quite relevant.

I guess it's about as relevant as some of the other stuff discussed on that thread (it gets pretty random at times), but why is this in particular relevant?

Do you think it would help people learn how to comply with forum policy better or something? :huh:
 

The Machine Stops

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Does Double think only apply to value judgements?

In my case, decision making is a value judgment process in this case. Doublethink is not a necessary part for decision making. It's useful for other purposes, and it requires variables of any kind. And anything involving people is going to be full of variables. Change a variable, an association, an experience, a perception, a believe, an assumption, and you have a new perspective. The only system with absolute concrete objective truths are made up by us. 1 and 1 is going to be 2. You need an X in that equation to be able to cover a wide range of possibilities.
 

Orangey

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I think it means people should cherish the things they take for granted more, not completely remove their value in a fit of paranoia. xD

No, I think, per Russell's usual attitude, that it means people should examine beliefs which they take for granted in order to weed out those that remain as the result of authority or prejudice. That has nothing to do with doublethink, which is a form of total philosophical skepticism (not that you, fluffywolf, said it did, but I was relating it back to the central subject of the thread.)

"Certainly there are degrees of certainty, and one should be very careful to emphasize that fact, because otherwise one is landed in an utter skepticism, and complete skepticism would, of course, be totally barren and completely useless." - Bertrand Russell

I think many in this thread are confusing what is a skeptical attitude towards certainty (i.e., that claims to truth should be evaluated rigorously) with doublethink, which is just the opposite (i.e., it's a practice that requires selective memory and the abandonment of logical analysis in order to work.)
 

Orangey

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I think the quoted version is just one example of how it could be used, and it's extremely negative and specific. Even in the novel, there are better definitions.

I haven't read the novel since high school, so my memory is distant, but doublethink was the direct method by which thought control was achieved, was it not?
 

Athenian200

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I haven't read the novel since high school, so my memory is distant, but doublethink was the direct method by which thought control was achieved, was it not?

Sure, combined with propaganda, controlling the language, a constant state of warfare, pure lust for power by the Inner Party, and instilling fear by use of the thought police and telescreens.

Doublethink was really just something used by more intelligent party members to avoid cognitive dissonance... the dumber ones just ignored the news or didn't understand it anyway.
 

Bamboo

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I'd say that if you can't recognize any form of "holding conflicting beliefs" in yourself that you are either:

a) an exceptionally clear (and organized) thinker, or
more likely:
b) you aren't trying very hard to find them.

That said, this thread is not just about holding conflicting beliefs - it's about willfully accepting both of them.


In some situations, I do think there is an objective truth and that you can uncover it and support it with evidence. In these cases, there is no reason to have two beliefs. That would be "willful ignorance."

In other situations, I think that Truth may or may not exist, and if it did exist, would I be able (with my human limitations) to understand it? Probably not. In these situations, I accept that there is a wide range of possibilities. I suppose I could say they are all "true", but really, they are all just (as far as I can tell) equally likely. So I just keep them in mind as such. (I'm sure there is a name for this in philosophy, anyone?)
 

Randomnity

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Doublethink was really just something used by more intelligent party members to avoid cognitive dissonance... the dumber ones just ignored the news or didn't understand it anyway.

lol....do you think you might be projecting here?

(but I admit, it's been a long long time since I read the book)
 

Bamboo

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To add to all this, as a person I have both a rational thinking capacity and an irrational instinctual capacity. They sometimes conflict. For instance, in situations where flight or fight comes into play when really I should just stay still.

I could say (somewhat tenuously, I'll offer) that I hold both beliefs as 'true', or part of my reality. I should run (or fight) and I should just stay still. If I don't recognize this conflict, and accept that to my irrational mind "running" is true, AND to my rational mind, "being still" is true, than I'm not going to be as effective as I could be when faced with situations which compel my irrational desires and hijack my rational brain from doing its job.

I wouldn't call this doublethink, but it's something else like it.
 

Orangey

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Doublethink was really just something used by more intelligent party members to avoid cognitive dissonance... the dumber ones just ignored the news or didn't understand it anyway.

Right, but how does that make it a desirable way of thinking?

It is precisely in the Inner Party that war hysteria and hatred of the enemy are strongest. In his capacity as an administrator, it is often necessary for a member of the Inner Party to know that this or that item of war news is untruthful, and he may often be aware that the entire war is spurious and is either not happening or is being waged for purposes quite other than the declared ones: but such knowledge is easily neutralized by the technique of doublethink.
 

Orangey

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I'd say that if you can't recognize any form of "holding conflicting beliefs" in yourself that you are either:

a) an exceptionally clear (and organized) thinker, or
more likely:
b) you aren't trying very hard to find them.

That said, this thread is not just about holding conflicting beliefs - it's about willfully accepting both of them.


In some situations, I do think there is an objective truth and that you can uncover it and support it with evidence. In these cases, there is no reason to have two beliefs. That would be "willful ignorance."

In other situations, I think that Truth may or may not exist, and if it did exist, would I be able (with my human limitations) to understand it? Probably not. In these situations, I accept that there is a wide range of possibilities. I suppose I could say they are all "true", but really, they are all just (as far as I can tell) equally likely. So I just keep them in mind as such. (I'm sure there is a name for this in philosophy, anyone?)

Mild relativism?
 

Aquarelle

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Yes, I definitely use it. I am a great believer in the power of paradox. Some things are one way and yet another.
 
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