The Dark Side of the INTJ

[Amargith]

Fwiw, my INTJ used to lie repeatedly to people as he didn't consider it worth the fuss of telling them everything, coz it would hold him back on what he was trying to accomplish. He also did the same to people he did care for and love, but only to protect them as he didn't consider it worth hurting their feelings over, so white lies were part of his repertoire, as was verbal acrobatics.

While I understood that this was part of how he operated as it proved efficient (a tool in his kit, really) and I knew why he did it was often for a good reason, I made it clear to him that I didn't like that as I prefer complete honesty, during the befriending phase. He tried to lie to me three times (white lies, to protect me), I guess out of habit. However, as I knew hem rather well, I noticed. Each time he tried, it resulted in a 2 week time out, with him repeatedly trying to re-establish contact and me hanging up on him till the message sunk in. Note that this was before we got together. After that, he realized that lying to me wasn't really efficient or productive and we came to an understanding. Similarly, there are things that to me are no problem and that he made clear are a big deal to him, so I respect his boundaries there as well.

I think INTJs perhaps use this tactic as they learn quite early on that it can save them a lot of head aches and they only answer to their own values anyways (Fi). And I can see it being efficient. Hell, I do omissions as well (though I can't outright lie), in the outside world, it *does* save you head aches and grief. However, I do answer to my own Fi as well, and unless we can find some common ground, I'm not about to let you grow close to me. Honesty is key for trust, and trust is key to having any kind of emotional relationship, in my books. In that perspective, I wouldn't trust this one one bit, and therefore would not be inclined to accept his offer, unless substantial changes would take place.

 

[Kalach]

I'd distinguish between lies for efficiency and lies for boundary marking. The first is for making things outside yourself happen, the second is for having people back off without the ordeal of bringing them in close to explain why they should back off. Given that one usually doesn't know how or why one gets to be e5, or even just introverted, the second isn't always explainable anyway.


Anyway, "lies"? Pffft.

What do people want, truth without tradesies?

 

[Athenian200]

Fwiw, my INTJ used to lie repeatedly to people as he didn't consider it worth the fuss of telling them everything, coz it would hold him back on what he was trying to accomplish. He also did the same to people he did care for and love, but only to protect them as he didn't consider it worth hurting their feelings over, so white lies were part of his repertoire, as was verbal acrobatics.

Well, I think that if a lie will hurt less than the truth, and doesn't benefit the person telling it, it's okay to lie. What I have a problem with is the way INTJs (apparently) lie and manipulate in order to benefit themselves at the expense of other people. I've done just the opposite before... tell a lie that benefits other people, at my own expense. For instance, I've known that something was someone else's fault before, and lied in order to take the blame for the mistake.

I think it's important to draw a distinction between the kinds of lies that are wrong, and the kind that are good.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Well, I think that if a lie will hurt less than the truth, and doesn't benefit the person telling it, it's okay to lie. What I have a problem with is the way INTJs (apparently) lie and manipulate in order to benefit themselves at the expense of other people. I've done just the opposite before... tell a lie that benefits other people, at my own expense. For instance, I've known that something was someone else's fault before, and lied in order to take the blame for the mistake.

I think it's important to draw a distinction between the kinds of lies that are wrong, and the kind that are good.

Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Athenian200]

Where did you get that idea from?

Well, the OP said that they thought the INTJ in question was doing that. And I can see Te/Fi doing that very easily. Because they do effective, pragmatic things outwardly (Te) that benefit the self inwardly (Fi).

Although to be fair, I think all Te/Fi users can be like this, even NFPs. NTJs are just a lot more capable of succeeding consistently and devastatingly with such a mindset, where the others would tend to fall flat of their faces if they tried it too often. I'm saying that their competence is what makes them dangerous.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Well, the OP said that they thought the INTJ in question was doing that. And I can see Te/Fi doing that very easily. Because they do effective, pragmatic things outwardly (Te) that benefit the self inwardly (Fi).

Well, thats an interesting illusion, what the OP said was that it would appear to others that the INTJ was doing something 'unethical' in the eyes of others but he did not view it to be benefiting himself at the expense of other people. As he said 'they said they wanted it and they are adults'. I would just consider it a tax on the stupid if someone doesn't want something but either pays for it or does it anyway. Kind of like homeopathy or typology.

Anyway, cool story bro. I know that INTJs can be very loosey goosy with semantics and terminology to maximise our return on investment without questioning the bigger picture and almost automagically, but similarly INFJs can be very loosey goosy with other skills to maximise the same effects almost subconsciously in the same way. Just Ni dominant I suppose and the parental preference of F vs T can lead to very little complimentary behaviour despite the natural initial friendliness of when ILI-IEI first meet if there isn't a very strong resonance between the individuals.

 

[nightning]

Anyway, cool story bro. I know that INTJs can be very loosey goosy with semantics and terminology to maximise our return on investment without questioning the bigger picture and almost automagically, but similarly INFJs can be very loosey goosy with other skills to maximise the same effects almost subconsciously in the same way. Just Ni dominant I suppose and the parental preference of F vs T can lead to very little complimentary behaviour despite the natural initial friendliness of when ILI-IEI first meet if there isn't a very strong resonance between the individuals.

Fully agree with Jim there. It's just something about Ni being able to assess the situation and reference it from multiple perspectives that allows INXJs to go in and make accurate predictions to be able to manipulation the situation. The fact that we're also introverts make the tendency to give nudges as oppose to facing things head-on much stronger.

 

[Athenian200]

Well, thats an interesting illusion, what the OP said was that it would appear to others that the INTJ was doing something 'unethical' in the eyes of others but he did not view it to be benefiting himself at the expense of other people. As he said 'they said they wanted it and they are adults'. I would just consider it a tax on the stupid if someone doesn't want something but either pays for it or does it anyway. Kind of like homeopathy or typology.

Well, doing something unethical in the eyes of others, but which you consider ethical, does involve paying more attention to your own feelings than those of others... that could technically be defined as selfish. I could be considered compassionate because I pay attention to how other people will feel about me as a result of my words/actions, and act accordingly.

Although, I suppose it's really all in the definition and perspective, isn't it?

Anyway, cool story bro. I know that INTJs can be very loosey goosy with semantics and terminology to maximise our return on investment without questioning the bigger picture and almost automagically, but similarly INFJs can be very loosey goosy with other skills to maximise the same effects almost subconsciously in the same way. Just Ni dominant I suppose and the parental preference of F vs T can lead to very little complimentary behaviour despite the natural initial friendliness of when ILI-IEI first meet if there isn't a very strong resonance between the individuals.

Ah, honestly, most of the INTJs I know don't do stuff like the one in the OP. I usually get along with those INTJs. Their biggest problem is that they tend to do embarrassing things due to their lack of social awareness, and tend to be too blunt. So it does seem pretty unusual, to me, for an INTJ to be consciously focused on manipulation. It would mean they'd developed their Fi to some degree, just enough to understand people's motives and exploit them.

I don't think the INTJ described in the OP was a typical INTJ, come to think of it.

Fully agree with Jim there. It's just something about Ni being able to assess the situation and reference it from multiple perspectives that allows INXJs to go in and make accurate predictions to be able to manipulation the situation. The fact that we're also introverts make the tendency to give nudges as oppose to facing things head-on much stronger.

Well, fine. That's probably true, I guess. Both Ni dominant types are good at doing that kind of thing, and tend to take advantage of it. I guess I just found it preferable to distance the INFJs from the INTJs in this particular instance...

 

[InvisibleJim]

Well, fine. That's probably true, I guess. Both Ni dominant types are good at doing that kind of thing, and tend to take advantage of it. I guess I just found it preferable to distance the INFJs from the INTJs in this particular instance...

Ah, the Fe comes out to play. As I said... cool story bro; what you would be doing there is shaming another person to make your own type/individual look better. That's not very ethical. You'll note that all of the INTJs here viewed certain peoples attempts to 'actively' shame the individual because he didn't agree with their ethics as totally wrong because he hadn't actually done anything wrong. It's somewhat equivalent to jailing someone because you think they might be thinking about stealing something. Pretty abhorrent in our books.

I like INFJs fine and they like me too; but I do feel I have to careful around them for what I see to be this tendancy to 'play the crowd' or 'play the group'.

Obviously there is a different view to everything; some us just view it as a 1 on 1 agreement between two individuals and will find a way to make that work to our benefit and expect the other not to agree if they do not see any benefit for themselves. Others are more social and subtle about improving their situation.

 

[Athenian200]

Ah, the Fe comes out to play. As I said... cool story bro; what you would be doing there is shaming another person to make your own type/individual look better. That's not very ethical.

Well, of course it sounds bad if you say it like THAT.

You'll note that all of the INTJs here viewed certain peoples attempts to 'actively' shame the individual because he didn't agree with their ethics as totally wrong because he hadn't actually done anything wrong. It's somewhat equivalent to jailing someone because you think they might be thinking about stealing something. Pretty abhorrent in our books.

Yeah, but it seemed like all the other NFs were doing it... until nightning showed up.

I like INFJs fine and they like me too; but I do feel I have to careful around them for what I see to be this tendancy to 'play the crowd' or 'play the group'.

I think INTJs and INFJs get along the best one-on-one. The INTJ will tend to embarrass the INFJ with their bluntness, and the INFJ will tend to annoy the INTJ with their tendency to... do whatever it was you said we do. But if we're not in a group, it's not a factor.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I think INTJs and INFJs get along the best one-on-one. The INTJ will tend to embarrass the INFJ with their bluntness, and the INFJ will tend to annoy the INTJ with their tendency to... do whatever it was you said we do. But if we're not in a group, it's not a factor.

Completely true. I never did like groups anyway.

 

[AgentF]

I know that if someone was so unpleasantly presumptuous as to approach me with either the idea of 'you need psychological help; I will support you' or the thought 'potential sociopath' I would not want them around at all, I would purposely blacklist them from my life entirely. It's a shockingly manipulative belief that you will be 'good enough a person' to support 'fixing' a person who hasn't actually done anything technically wrong other than not acting exactly by a non-agreed upon set of ethics in their own head and they obviously aren't balanced enough to weight up their experiences of me in a sensible way and are therefore prejudice.

In fact considering that they would even potentially consider me a sociopath -based upon some internet links as well.. - I would just assume this individual is dangerously unbalanced firstly to jump to that assessment. Moreover, they are so unbalanced that despite thinking this it would seem that they aren't capable of walking away, therefore removing them entirely from my life is for 'their own good' in 'their opinion'.

No cigar and a dangerous and degrading set of opinions. This is not the kind of individual I would want to have as a friend.

he has admitted he's considered seeking psychological help specific to how he was handling us. that's probably an important fact here. he told me that he was considering seeing a therapist about 2 months after he met me.

given that, i absolutely stand by my interest in remaining a friend to him if he does seek professional help. would a loyal friend walk away from someone in that circumstance? not in my world.

 

[InvisibleJim]

he has admitted he's considered seeking psychological help specific to how he was handling us. that's probably an important fact here. he told me that he was considering seeing a therapist about 2 months after he met me.

given that, i absolutely stand by my interest in remaining a friend to him if he does seek professional help. would a loyal friend walk away from someone in that circumstance? not in my world.

That makes sense if he chooses to do that; I was saying I wouldn't be comfortable in having friends who are essentially attempting to change who I am to match their own standards is all.

 

[Poki]

Well, I think that if a lie will hurt less than the truth, and doesn't benefit the person telling it, it's okay to lie. What I have a problem with is the way INTJs (apparently) lie and manipulate in order to benefit themselves at the expense of other people. I've done just the opposite before... tell a lie that benefits other people, at my own expense. For instance, I've known that something was someone else's fault before, and lied in order to take the blame for the mistake.I think it's important to draw a distinction between the kinds of lies that are wrong, and the kind that are good.

I do this alot.

To support this, my INTJ dad used to blame alot on me growing up for his benefit. Much of which I never found out until a later points in time. I dont really trust anyone when it comes to lieing anyway. See it way to much to consider actually trusting anyone. Its just a matter of how much do I trust you not to lie. In a world of lieing all you can do is look out for yourself and perpetrate the lieing circle. Its so much funner to tell the truth though...especially when it comes to people who are lieing.

 

[ceecee]

he has admitted he's considered seeking psychological help specific to how he was handling us. that's probably an important fact here. he told me that he was considering seeing a therapist about 2 months after he met me.

given that, i absolutely stand by my interest in remaining a friend to him if he does seek professional help. would a loyal friend walk away from someone in that circumstance? not in my world.

He may also be telling you exactly what you want to hear too.

 

[Coriolis]

I have been following this thread with interest. I, too, will carefully select which information to give people and how to convey it, in order to achieve my goals. I generally avoid outright lying, but will certainly omit information, and package it for best effect. The more established my relationship with someone, the more forthright I will be, since the other person is more likely to get the bigger picture and take offense, which can be quite counterproductive. These informational tactics work very well for infrequent or casual encounters, e.g. dealing with govt bureaucrats, or (as someone said) getting people to leave me alone without delving into more meaningful explanations.

My one piece of gratuitous advice for Agent furrina is to understand quite well what the worst case scenario is for the situation you are in, and to be completely prepared for it. If you cannot do this, then stay away.

 

[AgentF]

I have been following this thread with interest. I, too, will carefully select which information to give people and how to convey it, in order to achieve my goals. I generally avoid outright lying, but will certainly omit information, and package it for best effect. The more established my relationship with someone, the more forthright I will be, since the other person is more likely to get the bigger picture and take offense, which can be quite counterproductive. These informational tactics work very well for infrequent or casual encounters, e.g. dealing with govt bureaucrats, or (as someone said) getting people to leave me alone without delving into more meaningful explanations.

My one piece of gratuitous advice for Agent furrina is to understand quite well what the worst case scenario is for the situation you are in, and to be completely prepared for it. If you cannot do this, then stay away.

well, i've told him that i no longer want a relationship with him (which immediately prompted him to invite me to spend a romantic weekend with him). i feel somewhat sorry for him, which amuses me as I don't think he would actually care. or, if he did, he'd dismiss it or rationalize it away.

i think he's incapable of true intimacy. at least, the kind i'd like to have with someone.

 

[AgentF]

I have been following this thread with interest. I, too, will carefully select which information to give people and how to convey it, in order to achieve my goals. I generally avoid outright lying, but will certainly omit information, and package it for best effect. The more established my relationship with someone, the more forthright I will be, since the other person is more likely to get the bigger picture and take offense, which can be quite counterproductive.

how would you react if someone you like/respect (or have told you do ) were to tell you he/she sees through those tactics and finds it hard to have a friendship as a result? not in a rude or judgmental way, just matter of fact?

 

[Kalach]

how would you react if someone you like/respect (or have told you do ) were to tell you he/she sees through those tactics and finds it hard to have a friendship as a result? not in a rude or judgmental way, just matter of fact?

No one sees through the tactics. Ever. There is no through to see. There is only other people choosing different imperatives and perspectives.

 

[Amargith]

No one sees through the tactics. Ever. There is no through to see. There is only other people choosing different imperatives and perspectives.

True enough. I usually don't refer to it as tactics, but walls. Walls I can see through and make up the behavior.